Palgwe Il jang's middle block

[Callandor]

I am very interested in TKD poomse. The problem is, we focus mostly on kyorugi in our dojang. It is practically 30 min. warm-up and sparring until the end of class. We only get to practice poomse when nearing a scheduled promotion test -- and only Taegeuks. To compensate, I scour the net for information on Taegeuks and, specially, Palgwes (since it is not taken up).

I also bought the book discussed in this thread (The official taekwondo training manual). Not a very good review by all means. The odds seem to be against my learning the "art" in "martial arts".

Anyway, the materials I have gathered seems to have conflicts regarding the middle blocks used in moves 2,4,6,7,10,12,18,and 20. Some say 2,4,18,and 20 are inward and the rest are outward. Others say the exact opposite: 2,4,18,and 20 are outward and the rest are inward. Still others say that 2 and 4 are outward and all the rest are inward middle blocks (ahn mahki). Which of the aforesaid do you practice?

 

[stoneheart]

They are outward blocks the way I learned them. Regardless, it really doesn't matter how everyone else does it... just how your instructor wants Palgwe Il Jang performed. I'd suggest trying to book a private lesson with your instructor or one of his senior students to learn the exact specifics.

 

[TKDmel]

I was taught and I observe most others doing the block as an out to in middle block. But asking for instruction from your instructor or a senior belt is a good idea.

 

[exile]

They are outward blocks the way I learned them. Regardless, it really doesn't matter how everyone else does it... just how your instructor wants Palgwe Il Jang performed. I'd suggest trying to book a private lesson with your instructor or one of his senior students to learn the exact specifics.

I was taught and I observe most others doing the block as an out to in middle block. But asking for instruction from your instructor or a senior belt is a good idea.

Well put, gentlemen!

For what it's worth, at my dojang we do Palgwe Il Jang with moves 2 and 4 inward middle blocks, moves 6 and 7 as outward blocks (move 8 is a lunge punch), 10 and 12 as outward blocks and 18 and 20 as inward blocks. This is the same as what Richard Chun describes in his books.

 

[RED]

Just the opposite from Exile for me. I was originally taught to "draw the sword" for an outward block on the ends of the "I" and going down and back the legnth of the "I" is an Inward block. Closed hand in a front stance the first time down the "I" and open hand back stance on the way back. At the school I'm at now all of those blocks are inward. Therefore like the forementioned " contact an instructor. Here is an interesting link for you though: http://www.natkd.com/tkd_forms.htm

Just my 2 ¥

 

[exile]

Just the opposite from Exile for me. I was originally taught to "draw the sword" for an outward block on the ends of the "I" and going down and back the legnth of the "I" is an Inward block. Closed hand in a front stance the first time down the "I" and open hand back stance on the way back.

Red, when you say `open hand back stance on the way back', you're talking about a knifehand strike, right...? Or did you mean something else?

At the school I'm at now all of those blocks are inward.

I'm just curious... what was the lineage of your first school, do you know, as vs. the one you're in now? I wonder if this is something that systematically varied fron kwan to to kwan and was inherited through instructor lineages back to them.

Therefore like the forementioned " contact an instructor. Here is an interesting link for you though: http://www.natkd.com/tkd_forms.htm

Just my 2 ¥

There's no other way to do it, given the range of possibilties... sounds to me like more than 2¥'s worth!

 

[RED]

Red, when you say `open hand back stance on the way back', you're talking about a knifehand strike, right...? Or did you mean something else?



I'm just curious... what was the lineage of your first school, do you know, as vs. the one you're in now? I wonder if this is something that systematically varied fron kwan to to kwan and was inherited through instructor lineages back to them.



There's no other way to do it, given the range of possibilties... sounds to me like more than 2¥'s worth!

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear. Yes, I meant a knife hand strike while in a back stance.

I'll look into the lineage of the first instructor and the one I have now and get back with you.

 

[exile]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear. Yes, I meant a knife hand strike while in a back stance.

No, I was pretty sure what you meant. But again, that's an interesting difference—we do that sequence of knifehand strike in the front stance. Makes you wonder, doesn't it! :wink1:

I'll look into the lineage of the first instructor and the one I have now and get back with you.

Great, thanks—I'm just curious about how different school lineages may have shaped the way the hyungs are taught.

I've seen this sort of thing before... you wonder just what it was that motivated the person who changed the pattern in a certain way to do so. Was it just æsthetics? Did they want to encode a different bunkai into the hyung?... who knows? But it might be very instructive to know that sort of thing....

 

[Laurentkd]

We do all of ours as out to inside blocks (2,4,6,7,10,12,18,20). We also have front stance with the knife hand blocks.

ka-razy!

 

[exile]

We do all of ours as out to inside blocks (2,4,6,7,10,12,18,20). We also have front stance with the knife hand blocks.

ka-razy!

And that's the truth! It's sort of like the Wild West, out there in Palgwe-land...

 

[Callandor]

Thanks for your replies. From my own research, Exile's and Red's (from his former school) version are the most common though I've also seen versions described by TKDmel and Stoneheart. I've even seen a version which is opposite to that practiced in Red's new school (all outward middle blocks).

If only life was simple, I could just do as you suggested and simply ask the senior students or junior instructors. It would save me a lot of time. However, like I said in my original post, we don't do Palgwes. They are not familiar with it. I only wanted to learn it for the sake of the art. Asking the senior instructor might be too disrespectful as we are not required to do it and it is not part of our curriculum.

Finally, I think it matters how it is done because I believe that there is supposed to be only one way to do a hyung, poomse, or kata. If you change the moves, you should change the name. But that's just me and I could always be wrong.

 

[exile]

I only wanted to learn it for the sake of the art. Asking the senior instructor might be too disrespectful as we are not required to do it and it is not part of our curriculum.

C., this is a good impulse—there's never anything wrong with the desire to increase your knowledge of your art. One way maybe to approach it is to sound out your master instructor with a polite query if s/he's ever done any of the Palgwes, and if you get a positive answer, indicate that you've heard that there are various ways to do Palgwe Il Jang, what's your instructor's understanding of how the moves should go... etc. It might work, and I can't imagine any rational soul getting upset with a query posed that way, you know?

IFinally, I think it matters how it is done because I believe that there is supposed to be only one way to do a hyung, poomse, or kata. If you change the moves, you should change the name. But that's just me and I could always be wrong.

But consider the possibility that the same instructor taught the form in several different ways to different cohorts of students respectively. Remember, things were much, much less rigid back in the day, as they say. Kata and hyungs were viewed as practical things, the raw materials of training, not perfected choreography. They were handled in a bit more of a rough-and-ready style back then....

 

[stoneheart]

Finally, I think it matters how it is done because I believe that there is supposed to be only one way to do a hyung, poomse, or kata. If you change the moves, you should change the name. But that's just me and I could always be wrong.

Kata are meant to teach concepts and mechanics, not be immutable and unchangeable sequence of moves. In fact if you take the idea of kata as learning to fight, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that kata can and must change based on the situation at hand.

Can we agree that TKD descends from Okinawan karate or at least has a close linkage to it? If so, it's interesting to know that some of the past Okinawan masters taught the same kata to different students differently because of their physique or other special needs.

 

[Callandor]

... and I can't imagine any rational soul getting upset with a query posed that way, you know?

I think you are right. I always choose my words carefully specially in the dojang - people might be touchy - but I think you're right.

Kata are meant to teach concepts and mechanics, not be immutable and unchangeable sequence of moves.

This concept is new to me. I'm not saying that it's wrong; just that during the time when I took up karate before taekwondo, I was taught to perform the moves in a kata to the letter. If I shifted a foot the wrong way in, say, a front stance, my instructor would ask me if I made my own new version of the Heian kata and what my credentials are for doing so. Funny, actually. :lol2:

Can we agree that TKD descends from Okinawan karate or at least has a close linkage to it? If so, it's interesting to know that some of the past Okinawan masters taught the same kata to different students differently because of their physique or other special needs.

Yes, we can agree on the relation and yes, it is indeed interesting to know that fact. I never knew that could happen. Thanks for this information.

 

[RED]

My former instructor Grandmaster Choon Mo Yang teaches the Ji Do Kwan style. He is an excellent martial artist and I have the highest respect for him. I would still be with his school but as I reached higher ranks the family budget became too stressed with a new house and a new SUV. Maybe someday I will go back there. The istructor I have now is a 3rd degree BB out of the Ernie Reeves organization. I'm not sure of his history but the class is less traditional than I'm used to but it has other advantages like Ju-jitsu, boxing, and weapons incorperated into a Tae Kwon Do based classes.

My very first instructor was a very traditional 8th degree master out of the ITF organization, who was a student of Master Hill (not sure of the name) who was a student of General Choi.

I continue to practise the Chon-ji patterns (first love) along with the Palgue patterns. The only problem I see with this parrellel training is the similarities between the two can become confusing. An example is Palgue 4 starts with a twin fore arm block then a angled hammer fist then a knifehand strike. Won-yo (4th pattern in ITF) starts with a double forearm block then a angled suto strike then a straight punch in a extended stance. I have to really consentrate to advoid mixing the two. All three of these instructors showed me different ways exacuting similar blocks and strikes also. It can become very confusing if you aren't well rooted.

My advice is to get well rooted in one form set and then once you have a good foundation then you can start dabbling with other form sets. But talk to your instructor and let us know what he sayes.

 

[exile]

Kata are meant to teach concepts and mechanics, not be immutable and unchangeable sequence of moves. In fact if you take the idea of kata as learning to fight, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that kata can and must change based on the situation at hand.

Can we agree that TKD descends from Okinawan karate or at least has a close linkage to it? If so, it's interesting to know that some of the past Okinawan masters taught the same kata to different students differently because of their physique or other special needs.

Great points, Stoneheart!