Opinions sought

[MJS]

If I was attacked at the ATM, I would not stop hitting this guy until he was done. I don't know if the rest of his friends are near, and it gets harder if he is still a viable threat.
Sean

Agreed, and I hope my post didn't suggest otherwise. My point was simply....assess the situation and act accordingly.

 

[MJS]

The desire to get paybacks, and eliminating a threat are two different things. Payback speaks to a victim mentality.
Sean

I know. What made you think otherwise? My point was simply...if a badguy chooses to try to rob someone, they should not be shocked if the victim fights back and causes serious harm to the badguy. I wasn't talking about payback....not sure where that came from.

 

[MJS]

So because they don't care about you, you shouldn't care about them? Is that pretty much your position?

Yes, thats right. A little about myself....I'm a good guy. I work hard, and share many good things with my wife. I dont look for trouble, I stay out of potential problem areas/places, and away from problem people. In a nutshell, I mind my own business.

That being said, if you choose to break into my house at 2am, while my wife and I are sleeping, in order to steal something so you can sell it for a quick drug fix, then sorry, whatever happens to you, happens to you...plain and simple. Will I feel bad if my dog bites you? Nope. Will I feel bad if you take a spill down the stairs? Nope.

A while back, there was a pretty nasty home invasion, in Cheshire, CT. After all was said and done, the husband was badly beaten but survived, his wife was raped and strangled, one of his daughters sexually assaulted,, both of them tied to their beds, and the house lit on fire.

So, ask me again....do I care about the badguys? NO!!!! Sorry, I dont want to be another statistic, and I'll do everything in my power, if it takes my last breath, to ensure it!

BTW, the husband is the only survivor.

 

[MJS]

There was no kick to the head, which I guess means you don't see anything wrong with the response in its entirety then, right? "he said he was going to kick the guy in the head" isn't the same as actually kicking that head. I have murderous thoughts about about the guy who cut me off on the freeway. Can I be charged and/or convicted of any crime if I don't act on my thoughts?

No different than after I knock the guy down, and he's no longer a threat, I take one last kick and use his ribs as a football. The situation doesnt warrant it, dont do it. He said he was going to kick the guy in the head...and only stopped because someone got in his way. That tells me that if that person wasn't in his way, he'd have kicked the guy, and that, IMO, would've been excessive.

 

[MJS]

In a nutshell puuni....I'll go back to what I always say...assess the situation. Guy grabs your arm and you can apply a lock, fine. If the guy doesnt learn his lesson and now pulls a knife, you up your response. Its the simple use of force ladder.

A few months ago, I had a guy come up and ask me for money...as I was getting my bag out of my vehicle to go to class...of all places. LOL. I was watching him closely, made sure he didn't get too close to me, and was firm enough, that it caused him to leave. For me to KO the guy wouldnt be cool, if he was simply asking me for cash, not being aggressive, no weapons, etc.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I know. What made you think otherwise? My point was simply...if a badguy chooses to try to rob someone, they should not be shocked if the victim fights back and causes serious harm to the badguy. I wasn't talking about payback....not sure where that came from.

I was saying I think I saw Puuni's point if that's what it was. LOL

 

[puunui]

A while back, there was a pretty nasty home invasion, in Cheshire, CT. After all was said and done, the husband was badly beaten but survived, his wife was raped and strangled, one of his daughters sexually assaulted,, both of them tied to their beds, and the house lit on fire. So, ask me again....do I care about the badguys? NO!!!! Sorry, I dont want to be another statistic, and I'll do everything in my power, if it takes my last breath, to ensure it! BTW, the husband is the only survivor.

So that is your justification, what happened to someone else? But why do you care about the husband's situation? Do you think he cares about you, especially after what happened to his family?

 

[puunui]

No different than after I knock the guy down, and he's no longer a threat, I take one last kick and use his ribs as a football. The situation doesnt warrant it, dont do it. He said he was going to kick the guy in the head...and only stopped because someone got in his way. That tells me that if that person wasn't in his way, he'd have kicked the guy, and that, IMO, would've been excessive.

But, there was no kick, remember? You willing to condemn and convict someone for the intent to do something with no follow through? Again, if I think murderous thoughts about someone who cuts me off on the freeway, can you condemn or convict me of a crime if I don't act on my murderous thoughts? Doesn't freedom of speech blend with freedom of thought?

 

[puunui]

A few months ago, I had a guy come up and ask me for money...as I was getting my bag out of my vehicle to go to class...of all places. LOL. I was watching him closely, made sure he didn't get too close to me, and was firm enough, that it caused him to leave. For me to KO the guy wouldnt be cool, if he was simply asking me for cash, not being aggressive, no weapons, etc.

I've had people ask me for money as well. Sometimes I give them money, sometimes not, depending.

 

[MJS]

So that is your justification, what happened to someone else? But why do you care about the husband's situation? Do you think he cares about you, especially after what happened to his family?

Umm...can you read dude? WTF are you talking about? Where did I say I didn't care about the husband? I never said that! I think YOU need to reread and stop twisting my words! I said that if someone broke into a house, such as in Cheshire, those people who broke in, dont give a **** about the people inside, thus the homeowners, if they were capable of fighting back, shouldn't give a **** about the people breaking in! I care about the husband, because this was a guy who was a doctor, a good man with a good family, who was brutally killed...thats why!!!!!! People mind their own business, and 2 **** bags break in...screw the badguys!

But, there was no kick, remember? You willing to condemn and convict someone for the intent to do something with no follow through? Again, if I think murderous thoughts about someone who cuts me off on the freeway, can you condemn or convict me of a crime if I don't act on my murderous thoughts? Doesn't freedom of speech blend with freedom of thought?

Umm...better put your glasses on dude, cuz you're misreading again. Again..I said that in the situation the OP listed, IMHO, I did not feel a head kick was justified in that situation. Were it another situation, sure, that head kick may be justified. Once again, as I said, each and every situation needs to be assessed, and a response planned out. Where did I condemn him????? Sure, there've been times, when I've thought of doing more than what was justified, but I didn't.

I've had people ask me for money as well. Sometimes I give them money, sometimes not, depending.

A few years ago, I was in NYC with my wife, sister and brother in law. We were inside a store, taking a break in the foodcourt, and I saw a homeless woman digging thru the trash. Disgusted at what I was seeing, I stood up, and was going to approach the woman, and offer to buy her something to eat. However, before I could, she grabbed a container containing a half eaten sandwich, a half drank cup of soda, and ran off.

No, I dont just hand out cash to people, but I'd have no issues buying something for them. Better that than have them eating some nasty **** from the trash.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I was re-reading through the thread and putting it in context with other conversations I've had with this individual, or that I've read in his posts. It suddenly hit me how contradictory (or hypocritical) this individual has become in his posts. For example, from the first quote in the opening post;

I went to class that same day and told GM Ji about the incident. He wasn't upset about the altercation and was happy that his technique worked but got very upset when I told him that I think I might have broke that guy's wrist. I got a long angry lecture about not breaking anyone's joints because sooner or later they will get arthritis in that joint, they will hurt, and they will negatively remember you, probably for the rest of their lives. He said you don't want someone out there hating on you every time the weather gets cold or whatever.

Okay, that's fine. I don't agree with it of course and have stated so numerous times. But to each his own. But then this was sent to me from someone on the board, a quote from here on MT;

I will give you an example which made it crystal clear for me. I was studying with GM JI Han Jae in Daly City when he first moved to the United States. In fact, I gave up an opportunity to attend Harvard Law School just so I could train with him. I tried to learn as much as I could. A few months before I was going to move back to Hawaii, he took myself and the senior student aside and he did this pain thing to my left elbow and left wrist. He did not explain why he did that. The next day I could not lift my arm up. I had to literally hold my left arm up using my right hand. My left wrist and elbow was sore for a year afterwards. During that whole time, I felt angry about it. But I never said anything and continued to attend class right up to the time I left to return home. I never said anything to GM Ji about it and tried as best I could to suck it up and not show pain. It was very painful because my left arm is my teaching arm and every time someone did a technique to my wrist or elbow, it hurt like hell. I kept wondering why he did that. Then about a year later, almost exactly one year, the pain went away. Since then people can do their techniques as hard as possible, and it doesn't hurt at all. My wrist and elbow is now painless and I can take anyone's best technique with ZERO pain. You pretty much have to break my wrist or arm for me to feel it. He only did this to the two of us as far as I know, for the longest time.

I could have been a crybaby and complained to everyone what he did. I could have told everyone that I knew that GM Ji was a terrible teacher who hurt his students. I could have become bitter and resentful and waited for my opportunity to seek revenge. But I would have been wrong if I had done that. I realize now that he was giving me a gift, a gift that he did not give to everyone. It made me stronger, it made me a better martial artist. But I didn't know that at the time, and he not telling me what he was doing was a test of my self discipline and character. And I am glad that I never went down the dark side with that, which would have been easy let me tell you. It hurt for a year. I couldn't use my left arm for one year without pain. After one year I returned to see GM Ji and told him that I finally understood what he had done for me and how much I appreciated his gift. He just smiled, and I can say that it was a real turning point because I saw him and all my teachers and seniors really, in a different light.

Now I don't suppose I'd agree with giving up Harvard Law to train in Hapkido, but again, to each his own I suppose. But basically, he had his arm damaged from this instructor and then tries to put a spin on it by saying it was a 'gift' when it was negligence. But yet you're not suppose to injure an attacker because he will feel negative towards you when a cold front comes through.

This is what happens when you have a bad instructor but you're so sucked into the whole thing and dependent upon him for rank that you justify incompetence, negligence and a lack of integrity. That's my take on it.

 

[Buka]

Probably best not to argue with fools.

 

[Lee Mainprize]

Agreed, if your using your skills for its real intended purpose your not thinking about your actions - your thinking about dealing with the threat!

I think once your safe its applying reasonable force - when your in the moment you should not be thinking of holding back unless your very confidence the attacker is way out of his depth!