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[RyuShiKan]

I wanted to respond to SteelShadow’s post but the thread got “hilacked” and then locked down before I could do so.

Steelshadow
On the boards

I know that there are alot of frauds and fakes in the arts .I guess there always has been.But what of those that arnt frauds or fakes that have branched off or started teaching there own style or at least a combination of the styles theyve learnt.I have seen a continuing chain of them people being bashed on message boards even when they didnt make outrages claims of linage or secret teachings.And in my oppion this is wrong.If you dont agree with what they have to say then thats your right.Its even your right to say you disagree but that dosnt mean people should turn it into a smash and bash.
Theres to much of traditional stylist saying oh its crap if its modern or relativly unknown.And to many modern stylist saying its crap if its tradional or very old linage.Wether its a thousand yrs or one day old if its effective and it works it has a place.Its only knowledge how you use it or how its taught is what makes it good or bad.Not wether its old or new.every art was new at some stage in history.Alot of good martial artist wont respond to rough questions simply because in alot od cases even if they give the right answer someone is there to bash them.So rather than argue meaningless on some message board they choose not to get to deeply drawn up in the bashings.

I agree. This could be the fault of either side.
MMA people more often than not claim to have “re-invented the wheel” or “built a better mouse trap” without actually knowing what “traditional” arts really are.
On the other hand, many so-called “Traditionalists” can’t think outside the box. These are most often the people that don’t realize their art contains many of the same elements that the MMA propagate. These are two broad generalizations.
The more I look into the history or martial arts, be it asian or western, the more I realize people that claim to “invent” or “develop” new or improved arts actually aren’t.
For example I have 15th century German books on hand to hand combat that have many of the same techniques as what MMA do now.
There is a saying in Chinese……. “To review the old is to learn the new”.

 

[A.R.K.]

There is a saying in Chinese……. “To review the old is to learn the new”.

This is actually, quite a good [and true] saying. RyuShiKan, perhaps another angle would be the commercialization of the MA's. Many styles & systems seemed to be more geared to sporting events and competition that genuine effective survival in real life. Depending on one's locale it may be very difficult or impossible to receive training from someone with practical experience in a non-sport version of a style or system.

It would seem that in many instances, children are the life-blood of a dojo. And there is nothing wrong with training children and young people. But they don't need to be trained with everything an adult may need, especially those adults in high liability professions. Thus again, it may be difficult/impossible to receive what I call real Martial training.

I'm supposing this may also add to the conflict/frustration in discussing this particular subject. Perhaps others would also like to comment....

Take care :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
RyuShiKan, perhaps another angle would be the commercialization of the MA's. Many styles & systems seemed to be more geared to sporting events and competition that genuine effective survival in real life. Depending on one's locale it may be very difficult or impossible to receive training from someone with practical experience in a non-sport version of a style or system.

Competition MA can be a useful tool if looked at in the right perspective. However, there are those ( in both MMA & TMA) that can distinguish real from sport.
I have read where people claim people don’t fight like they did 100 or 200 years ago. This statement is often said by people that have little or no knowledge of TMA.
I can’t agree with this comment since 1) they weren’t alive during that time period and couldn’t have any first hand knowledge, and 2) people’s bodies have not gone through any evolutionary changes since then. Our arms and legs are still in the same places and move and don’t move in the same directions.
This statement is often said by people that have little or no knowledge of TMA.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
It would seem that in many instances, children are the life-blood of a dojo. And there is nothing wrong with training children and young people. But they don't need to be trained with everything an adult may need, especially those adults in high liability professions. Thus again, it may be difficult/impossible to receive what I call real Martial training.
Take care :asian:

Sorry to say but 99.99% of all “kiddy classes” I have seen are watered down versions of the art they are training and about the same % are “dojo daycare”. They are also the finical backbone of most successful schools too.
This brings me to an interesting point in Okinawan History.
Itosu developed and implemented certain aspects of Karate to be taught to Primary School students and he even claimed to have removed much of the more dangerous aspects of the art that were to be taught to them.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I wanted to respond to SteelShadow’s post but the thread got “hilacked” and then locked down before I could do so.



I agree. This could be the fault of either side.
MMA people more often than not claim to have “re-invented the wheel” or “built a better mouse trap” without actually knowing what “traditional” arts really are.
On the other hand, many so-called “Traditionalists” can’t think outside the box. These are most often the people that don’t realize their art contains many of the same elements that the MMA propagate. These are two broad generalizations.
The more I look into the history or martial arts, be it asian or western, the more I realize people that claim to “invent” or “develop” new or improved arts actually aren’t.
For example I have 15th century German books on hand to hand combat that have many of the same techniques as what MMA do now.
There is a saying in Chinese……. “To review the old is to learn the new”.

Its true their really are no new techniques. But it all lies in the format of the arts and the method of the teachings and whether or not there is any substance there.

There are many books dating back as far as the dead sea scrolls and beyond I'm sure, but I think its safe to say that "we" have not seen them much less studied from them. :asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Competition MA can be a useful tool if looked at in the right perspective.

I agree with your statement as a point of safety. As the saying goes "Train the way you fight and fight the way you train". Of course one can only do so much with a training partner and still have a margin of safety.

Itosu developed and implemented certain aspects of Karate to be taught to Primary School students and he even claimed to have removed much of the more dangerous aspects of the art that were to be taught to them.

In your country, what is your opinion as to adult classes being 'watered down' or catered for sports/competition as opposed to more effective 'street' techniques [for lack of a better term]. Are most schools still teaching the 'heart & soul' so to speak or are many going commercial in catering to the masses?

Take care.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I agree with your statement as a point of safety. As the saying goes "Train the way you fight and fight the way you train". Of course one can only do so much with a training partner and still have a margin of safety.

My problem with tournaments is that many who enter them look only at getting a trophy and focus on techniques that score points rather than “real” application of techniques.
By winning tournaments many come under the false impression they’re techniques will work in the real world and propagate such to the un-initiated.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
In your country, what is your opinion as to adult classes being 'watered down' or catered for sports/competition as opposed to more effective 'street' techniques [for lack of a better term]. Are most schools still teaching the 'heart & soul' so to speak or are many going commercial in catering to the masses?

You and I are from the same country, America, aren’t we?
If you mean Japan, then yes the classes are watered down for adults as well as children. I have yet to see one school in mainland Japan that teaches the “heart & soul” of karate.
Many foreigners come to Japan and join a Japanese Karate dojo only to be disappointed in discovering Japan is not the “Mecca” of Karate and the techniques taught in “Mainland Karate” are not street effective and often their training in their own country was more street effective. Japanese Karate dojo are sport oriented and while they say some of the techniques taught are “street effective” most are not.

I recently attended the Nippon Budokan Seminar held in Chiba Japan and one participant from the US told me that he was totally disillusioned with the quality of training in Japanese Karate dojo.
I empathized with him since I was in the same boat 15 years ago when I first came to Japan. Others have also relayed the same feeling to me over the years.

If you want effective real world Karate I recommend Okinawa or the US, not all but some dojo in these places still teach “the real deal”.

 

[A.R.K.]

My problem with tournaments is that many who enter them look only at getting a trophy and focus on techniques that score points rather than “real” application of techniques.
By winning tournaments many come under the false impression they’re techniques will work in the real world and propagate such to the un-initiated.

I can remember a young lady that attended my class for the first time. She was in a popular style that in my opinion has been highly commercialized into the sport realm. And in this aspect she is a fantastic competitor with multiple wins, trophies etc. She and her father are very close with Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace and they have contributed to her training and success in this arena. And I think it's wonderful in this regard and don't wish to take away from her individual accomplishments, they are vast and well earned.

Her father however knows me well [he is also a Deputy] and he sent her to me for training in my arena. As we have discussed before, my training is very hands on with no fluff so to speak. My favorite saying is being able to 'fight inside of a phone booth'. The first class she was horrified and I'll never forget her first words as she stepped on deck with another student to perform a balance displacement technique..."I have to put my hands on him?!?" She was so used to kicking for points or tippy tapping a punch that actually grappling and taking control of someone was a completely foriegn concept.

If you want effective real world Karate I recommend Okinawa or the US, not all but some dojo in these places still teach “the real deal”.

Interesting comments about Japan. One of the things I stingently adhere to in our school is to only use what actually will work on/off duty against Bg's. No fluff, no flash. Yes, I'm geared towards a very small sect of the populace because of my background [high liability], but of the few citizens serious enough to seek us out, the response has been very favourable. I care nothing for trophies. My vindication came when a former female student told me she was able to prevent a date-rape because of something she learned in class. Or a fellow Deputy who prevented an escape physically with another technique. No trophy is equal to this in my opinion.

Take care.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

I agree. The "sportification" of karate (and kung-fu as well) ultimately seems to have led people away from the real art.

There are people out there who want to learn real martial arts, but it's getting very hard to find. One of my senior students (some years back) attended college in Taiwan and he was very excited about training there. I warned him that the best kung-fu people do not, for the most part, live in Taiwan or China nowadays. After years of searching for a good teacher who taught the real deal, he had to agree with me.

 

[SteelShadow]

Thanx RSK for your response.In my oppion its a waste of time and even a waste of information for modern or tradionals practioners to spend so much time looking for any and all faults they can find in an oposite style.I belive if looked at for what they are there is much knowledge to be learned from both sides.And Altho it is hard to find a new technique.I believe that alot of time there is just diffrent aproaches to the same things.And its in the diffrent aproach or the diffrent aspect of a technique that would make it usefull some may find tradional techniques to work best.While others find the modern aproach better to there liking.That dosnt make one any better or worse than the other.It simply shows that everyone has diffrent views.As ive said before to me martial arts is simply knowledge what you do with it is what makes it usefull or not.But just because its not usefull to one person dosnt mean it wont be for the next.And if more people would realize this the martial arts wouldnt have quiet the discord it does now.

On the subject of made up linage or false history.I do not agree with that.That only proves someone is a fraud.Altho i dont bash them for it i dont agree with it.I myself am a modern practioner and a instructor of a mixed or hybrid art but i dont claim some ancient linage or some secret teaching by a person that cant seem to be proven to exsist.I simply state what ive learnt and what i teach.
And please I hope noone uses this to start a flame .
I simply used myself for an example.Altho I am a modern practioner I hold the utmost respect for tradional styles.For even the most modern of styles if they would be honest will have to admit that some aspect of there art was taken from a tradional foundation.If a persons art is effective and it works .And they realy belive in what they teach not just the money .Then they shouldnt feel the need to make up a linage or history they Can simply state this is what I do this is what I teach.And it should stand on its own.Theres always gonna be someone who dosnt agree with you or may even try to belittle you for it.But making up a linage or claims of some super secret teachings isnt gonna make them start agreeing with you if anything it will only make others loose faith.

just my two cents worth again.....

 

[arnisador]

Thread split; see here for the new thread. Please, try to remain on-topic.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[DAC..florida]

I agree that no-one is re-inventing the wheel but if you have experience in more than one style and choose to pick out certain techniques from each style and put it all together you would have to call it your style ( not necessarely new ) but what else could you call it.

I dont believe that you can learn everything you need to know from one style alone.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I agree that no-one is re-inventing the wheel but if you have experience in more than one style and choose to pick out certain techniques from each style and put it all together you would have to call it your style ( not necessarely new ) but what else could you call it.

I dont believe that you can learn everything you need to know from one style alone.

You’re entitled to that belief and to chose to follow your own philosophy.
I too use to think that way but was shown the error of my ways.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You’re entitled to that belief and to chose to follow your own philosophy.
I too use to think that way but was shown the error of my ways.

Ryushikan

what do you mean? please explain in detail!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida

I dont believe that you can learn everything you need to know from one style alone.

You’re entitled to that belief and to chose to follow your own philosophy.
I too use to think that way but was shown the error of my ways.

 

[chufeng]

DAC,

He is saying you CAN learn everything you need from system, if you dig deeply enough to find the juicy bits...
The caveat to that is having a teacher who fully understands the system.

The problem has been people branching off before they fully grasp what a system has to offer...Teachers who don't know the depth of their own system...and those who pass on watered down versions for money...

That is why the hybrid schools have started popping up all over the place...the students want more and can't find it in many dojos because the teacher simply does not understand his art...or the student is impatient, or lazy, and thinks that by going from dojo to dojo he can learn more stuff faster...bottom line, it still requires a ton of practice.

I am still a proponent of sticking to one art and going very deeply into it.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

He is saying you CAN learn everything you need from system, if you dig deeply enough to find the juicy bits...
The caveat to that is having a teacher who fully understands the system.

The problem has been people branching off before they fully grasp what a system has to offer...Teachers who don't know the depth of their own system...and those who pass on watered down versions for money...

That is why the hybrid schools have started popping up all over the place...the students want more and can't find it in many dojos because the teacher simply does not understand his art...or the student is impatient, or lazy, and thinks that by going from dojo to dojo he can learn more stuff faster...bottom line, it still requires a ton of practice.

I am still a proponent of sticking to one art and going very deeply into it.

:asian:
chufeng

I apreciate you helping me understand what Ryu meant!
I have been in Tae Kwon Doe for quite some time now in a few schools and thier answers to close quarters combat is dont get in that position, using distance ect.
The style I'm studying now is a much more well rounded style for all scituations.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

He is saying you CAN learn everything you need from system, if you dig deeply enough to find the juicy bits...
The caveat to that is having a teacher who fully understands the system.

The problem has been people branching off before they fully grasp what a system has to offer...Teachers who don't know the depth of their own system...and those who pass on watered down versions for money...

That is why the hybrid schools have started popping up all over the place...the students want more and can't find it in many dojos because the teacher simply does not understand his art...or the student is impatient, or lazy, and thinks that by going from dojo to dojo he can learn more stuff faster...bottom line, it still requires a ton of practice.

I am still a proponent of sticking to one art and going very deeply into it.

:asian:
chufeng

That’s pretty much what I was trying to say…….thanks Chufeng.
The deeper I go in one art the more I find out that art has much more than I previously thought. Sort of a snow ball effect.

 

[Disco]

Gentlemen, Allow me to interject this thought. Chefung touched upon it. The Teacher / Instructor that does not know his art fully. The watered down versions that don't / can't offer the full depth of knowledge that one may be seeking. Many people upon entering into the arts only can access what's available in their general area. In addition, they are unaware of the pitfalls that are rampant within the arts. After spending a little time, they start to become educated and they see what's missing. Can you blame them for wanting to expand their knowledge? Ryu is correct when he states that you can learn all you need if you stay and research your style. The general problem is that not everybody is fortunate enough to be involved in that type of training or as above, have a fully rounded teacher.

What do you think?........