Board breaking

[drop bear]

Is breaking ribs necessarily the point of body shots though?

 

[david7510]

Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later.

I personally train to protect myself and loved ones and will do what ever it takes to accomplish that, but to each their own.

My philosophy is simple, you come at me with empty hands you want to put me in the hospital, I am not going you are and you don't get a second chance to came back and kill me. You come at me with a weapon, club, knife or gun you want to kill me, I will take it away from you and use it against you and you will be lucky if you only go to the hospital and not the morgue. I do not train or teach for sport. How do you train what do you really train for?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later.

I personally train to protect myself and loved ones and will do what ever it takes to accomplish that, but to each their own.

My philosophy is simple, you come at me with empty hands you want to put me in the hospital, I am not going you are and you don't get a second chance to came back and kill me. You come at me with a weapon, club, knife or gun you want to kill me, I will take it away from you and use it against you and you will be lucky if you only go to the hospital and not the morgue. I do not train or teach for sport. How do you train what do you really train for?

I can definitely see your point of view, however in that particular scenario the law might be against you, because of excessive force. If someone threw a punch at you that at most would have resulted in a black eye or a broken nose, and in response you beat them to within an inch of their life, you would have trouble justifying that in court. It doesn't even matter if the other person hit you first.

 

[david7510]

I have discussed this with local law and have done research and all you have to say is that you had no idea what the person was going to do or was capable of doing and that you had a fear for your life. You do have the right to self defense and that is what you did.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I have discussed this with local law and have done research and all you have to say is that you had no idea what the person was going to do or was capable of doing and that you had a fear for your life. You do have the right to self defense and that is what you did.

I don't know where you live but in the UK where I live, if a self-defence case goes to the courts, the jury will decide on whether excessive force was used based on the circumstances and results, regardless of what the defendant thought was reasonable at the time. The jury would also take any form of training into account when deciding this, so you, being a trained Martial Artist, would be expected to show more self-restraint and control than your average person.

You also have to consider exactly how you went about dealing with the attack. If for example you took your scenario in the bar, and as soon as the attacker punched you, you did a single reactive strike that just so happened to break the guy's ribs, you could claim self defence. However, if you pinned the guys arm to stop the attack, then proceeded to beat the **** out of him, you would no longer be able to claim self defence. In stopping the initial attack you have eliminated the threat to your life, meaning any subsequent force you used would not be considered self-defence. Here's an example of this happening:

The classic test comes from the Australian case of Palmer v The Queen, on appeal to the Privy Council in 1971:

"The defence of self-defence is one which can be and will be readily understood by any jury. It is a straightforward conception. It involves no abstruse legal thought. ...Only common sense is needed for its understanding. It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but may only do, what is reasonably necessary. But everything will depend upon the particular facts and circumstances. ...It may in some cases be only sensible and clearly possible to take some simple avoiding action. Some attacks may be serious and dangerous. Others may not be. If there is some relatively minor attack it would not be common sense to permit some action of retaliation which was wholly out of proportion to the necessities of the situation. If an attack is serious so that it puts someone in immediate peril then immediate defensive action may be necessary. If the moment is one of crisis for someone in imminent danger he may have [to] avert the danger by some instant reaction. If the attack is all over and no sort of peril remains then the employment of force may be by way of revenge or punishment or by way of paying off an old score or may be pure aggression. There may no longer be any link with a necessity of defence... If a jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought was necessary that would be most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken."[3]
In R v Lindsay,[4] the defendant, who picked up a sword in self-defence when attacked in his home by three masked intruders armed with loaded handguns, killed one of them by slashing him repeatedly. The prosecution case was that, although he had initially acted in self-defence, he had then lost his self-control and demonstrated a clear intent to kill the armed intruder. The Court of Appeal confirmed an eight-year term of imprisonment. It would not be expected that an ordinary householder who "went too far" when defending against armed intruders would receive such a long sentence.

 

[david7510]

Ah I know what you are saying but then again how do you know when it is over how do you know that he was going to stop and not pull a knife out and stab you. Answer you don't the only way you can be sure that you are no longer threatened is when the attacker can not possibly be of any further threat. That is when you stop. Now in your example the guy was sliced and if it was to the point his guts were coming out then uh yeah he would probably no longer be a threat but at the same time if he raises his gun toward you then he obviously is still a threat. So you have to ask at what point was he longer a threat and then after that if the home owner still tried to cut him up more then ok that would be excessive. To avoid that the home owner could have sliced his throat with the sword killing him with one shot and then he could have claimed self defense. But sounds like the owner went way beyond, I have no idea, Did he stab him 45 times, I mean obviously he did more then was necessary. In these cases there always seems to be more to the story.

The lady in Texas who had 2 or 3 people break into her home, she took the kids and a gun and hid in the closet. When an intruder open the door she fired as many times as she felt was needed to protect her and her kids and she was never arrested or tried.

Depends all in how you present yourself and as to whether or not you can say that you felt your life was threatened and you did what you felt you had to to save yourself or your family. I personally am not worried about the law. Again I am not giving you the chance to go out get a gun and come back and kill me or my family. So if I feel that you might have a weapon, and I don't have anyway to know one way or the other so I am not going to assume that the guy attacks me is just really a nice guy down deep and dosen't mean anything bad. I will assume an attacker is capable of doing anything so therefore I will use any and all means I feel necessary at the time. I am not say kill every one I am saying stop them if you can and I mean stop them but you come with intent to kill, then I will defend myself appropriately

Every one else is free to do as they feel is right I just hope that no one ever has to be in that situation to begin with but if you do, don't make a mistake that ends in you or your loved ones demise. .

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is breaking ribs necessarily the point of body shots though?

Sometimes.

 

[drop bear]

Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later.

I personally train to protect myself and loved ones and will do what ever it takes to accomplish that, but to each their own.

My philosophy is simple, you come at me with empty hands you want to put me in the hospital, I am not going you are and you don't get a second chance to came back and kill me. You come at me with a weapon, club, knife or gun you want to kill me, I will take it away from you and use it against you and you will be lucky if you only go to the hospital and not the morgue. I do not train or teach for sport. How do you train what do you really train for?

Well let me tell you a story. My coach ate a spinning kick to the liver in a sports fight that quite simply incapacitated him but did not break a single thing. Ended the fight with that shot.

Now if breaking ribs dropped guys and ended fights everyone would be doing it.

Nothing to do with being streetier than the streets. I am not sure breaking ribs is necessarily the most effective shot. Or even what you are necessarily targeting with a body shot.

Hitting hard yeah. Rib breaking not really.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well let me tell you a story. My coach ate a spinning kick to the liver in a sports fight that quite simply incapacitated him but did not break a single thing. Ended the fight with that shot.

Now if breaking ribs dropped guys and ended fights everyone would be doing it.

Nothing to do with being streetier than the streets. I am not sure breaking ribs is necessarily the most effective shot. Or even what you are necessarily targeting with a body shot.

Hitting hard yeah. Rib breaking not really.

I think it's safe to say that the goal of striking is to injure whatever the target is. Might be the liver. Might be the ribs. Might be the head.
It is, certainly, much harder to break a rib wearing big puffy gloves than bare knuckled. It's not as hard wearing MMA-style gloves, but any competition-style glove will spread the impact out to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I think it's safe to say that the goal of striking is to injure whatever the target is. Might be the liver. Might be the ribs. Might be the head.
It is, certainly, much harder to break a rib wearing big puffy gloves than bare knuckled. It's not as hard wearing MMA-style gloves, but any competition-style glove will spread the impact out to a greater or lesser degree.

In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:

Aggressor incapacitated without anyone getting injured. Of course, this particular scenario only worked out because the guy doing the choke was able to approach the aggressor unnoticed from behind and apply the move before the guy had a chance to react. Now, is breaking someone's ribs going to stop a fight? Potentially, but it's also possible that the attacker will ignore the pain or not even notice it through adrenaline until afterwards. The same could be said of attacks to the Liver and Kidneys. Yes these attacks could cause a lot of damage, but probably won't stop the fight immediately.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:

I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.

Agreed. I was talking about the ideal scenario where both parties walked away unharmed with minimal chance of prosecution or complications with the law.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.

Agreed. If I feel I have the option, I'd prefer not to do serious damage to them. If I'm unsure, I'll keep doing whatever I can to survive, including the ends of the spectrum you state.

 

[david7510]

I agree with gpseymour and dirty dog and midnight shadow. I never once said that I wouldn't try to avoid a confrontation or that I was out looking for fights. I simply said that I will do whatever I feel necessary for the safety of my family and myself. I was speaking to the need to be prepared, remember it is a mental state that you need to achieve if all you train is your body and not the mind and spirit please don't call yourself a martial artist call yourself a sport martial artist instead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with gpseymour and dirty dog and midnight shadow. I never once said that I wouldn't try to avoid a confrontation or that I was out looking for fights. I simply said that I will do whatever I feel necessary for the safety of my family and myself. I was speaking to the need to be prepared, remember it is a mental state that you need to achieve if all you train is your body and not the mind and spirit please don't call yourself a martial artist call yourself a sport martial artist instead.

I'm not a fan of creating divisions like that. Plenty of folks who train for sporting use of MA skills have good warrior spirit and focus on protecting themselves. "Sport" is not a lesser thing.

 

[Buka]

In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:

Aggressor incapacitated without anyone getting injured. Of course, this particular scenario only worked out because the guy doing the choke was able to approach the aggressor unnoticed from behind and apply the move before the guy had a chance to react. Now, is breaking someone's ribs going to stop a fight? Potentially, but it's also possible that the attacker will ignore the pain or not even notice it through adrenaline until afterwards. The same could be said of attacks to the Liver and Kidneys. Yes these attacks could cause a lot of damage, but probably won't stop the fight immediately.

That's always been one of my favorite Youtube vids of all time. It was so nice to see it again over morning coffee. Hard not to smile watching that.

 

[david7510]

I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.

That's not unique to the sport side. You can find bad attitudes among the non-sport crowd, too. Most of us won't be on TV, so it won't be as spectacular, though.

 

[david7510]

You are absolutely right about that. But hey pay me enough money and I might let you beat me on TV and then buy an island and a big yacht and relax for the rest of my days.

 

[wab25]

I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.

If we are talking real life, self defense, on the "street," then covering up and running might be the best reaction, provided you can get away. You may be good enough to knock the guy down, break his rib and pin him there... you might also find out you are in a knife fight, or a gun fight. (and you just broke gun fight rule number one: Bring a gun.) You might find out his buddies were right around the corner. You may knock the guy out with one punch, only to have him fall and hit his head on the way down, killing him... getting you at least into court for it, people have gone to jail for it.

The point is, that if there is a way to exit, even if it involves covering and running, most of the time, that is your best course of action. I have a lot of things on my list to do tomorrow. Getting out of jail, getting out of the hospital and going to the morgue are not on my list. When the first punch is thrown, I will do whatever I need to do. If I can start my list of things to do, tomorrow... I succeeded. Even if that means covering up and running. If that means I should not be calling myself a martial artist, well, I'll get over it. I've been called worse.