On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[Gweilo]

I was talking about back in the late 80's early 90's before door safe etc.

 

[Martial D]

Not at all. There are plenty of very successful bouncers and street fighters who are self taught.

It is a very common way to learn to fight.

This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.

Are you telling me that Bulletproof Monk is a lie????

 

[Deleted member 39746]

You need to still tick the boxes of a school that creates successful fighters. And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience.

Which are problems you could face going to an instructor anyway.

But for the best development you want as many advantages to your learning as you can. If you can.

Oh, i thought i ha da rebuttal, but i would have just worded it diffrently if i was going to write it.

This is also why for sake of argument schools should be ruled out as you have to assess quality of school, then style/federation for goals. And it just (as has been evident in this thread) defaults back to "go to a school".

Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.

Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards. They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards. They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.

The bouncers I've worked with never have to deal with people with rifles or anything like that. It's mostly folks who need to be removed because of behavior (mostly drunks) and folks who get into fights (probably still mostly drunks, but also includes some folks who haven't had that much yet).

 

[skribs]

This is also why for sake of argument schools should be ruled out as you have to assess quality of school, then style/federation for goals. And it just (as has been evident in this thread) defaults back to "go to a school".

You have to do the same for any videos you get in self-training. I also provided you with several arts where assessing the quality of the school, style, and federation should be easy, since those styles regularly compete and are prominent in MMA.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The bouncers I've worked with never have to deal with people with rifles or anything like that. It's mostly folks who need to be removed because of behavior (mostly drunks) and folks who get into fights (probably still mostly drunks, but also includes some folks who haven't had that much yet).

Its by far not a commonality for many people. And if it is you should be armed for it or the police should be patrolling around there. But unlucky if it does, as its your issue as security. Even if you just direct people to exits and call the police.

A more common situation would be gang related stabbings, i dont know if any sane person would decide to shoot somone inside a populated pub, outside is a diffrent matter though.


The disparity in what they have to deal with is pretty real though, ranging from the common issues (as stated) to terrorism or things on par with it.

Edit: i have heard mixed things about the SIA licence and how useful their minimum required knowledge to work as, is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Its by far not a commonality for many people. And if it is you should be armed for it or the police should be patrolling around there. But unlucky if it does, as its your issue as security. Even if you just direct people to exits and call the police.

A more common situation would be gang related stabbings, i dont know if any sane person would decide to shoot somone inside a populated pub, outside is a diffrent matter though.


The disparity in what they have to deal with is pretty real though, ranging from the common issues (as stated) to terrorism or things on par with it.

Edit: i have heard mixed things about the SIA licence and how useful their minimum required knowledge to work as, is.

My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.

 

[skribs]

My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.

You have to factor in he's replacing experience with supposition.

 

[Gweilo]

You have to factor in he's replacing experience with supposition.

Yes, I thought that too, or he started the thread to try to reafirm his desire not to actually start training properly. Train at home by all means, but get the help of someone who knows what they are doing, and in a place where you are aloud to pressure test what you learn

 

[Tez3]

Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards. They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.

Well I'm sure that will come as a surprise to all the door staff I know. 'Just' specialised security guards?.

What they deal with here, is security issues ( funnily enough), fire safety, crime (theft, assaults, fraud), drug offences (drug dealers), first aid, dealing with drunks certainly ( not just the troublesome ones, the lost and sick ones too) and basically making sure the venue is safe and people have a good time. Here they usually work with the police, having a good working relationship with the local police is vital now.

 

[drop bear]

Where's your proof for it? Someone else posted proof that people who are self taught lose when they enter competitions. Do you have videos or proof showing that bouncers without training do well in full contact competitions?

There is no proof for any of it though. Instructor taught or self taught.

 

[drop bear]

Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.

Who do your self defense guys fight?

 

[drop bear]

This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.

There are elements in training that matter. If you had an instructor and mimicked bruce lee in a mirror. You would have the same result in fighting ability.

 

[Martial D]

There are elements in training that matter. If you had an instructor and mimicked bruce lee in a mirror. You would have the same result in fighting ability.

That depends on the instructor. If he understood the how and why of those movements, and how to use them against resistance, that would give different results than if the instructor did not understand these things.

 

[oftheherd1]

If you see the preface about skill variety and variety in the learning curve... Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.

Could you name that printed manual on first aid please?

 

[drop bear]

That depends on the instructor. If he understood the how and why of those movements, and how to use them against resistance, that would give different results than if the instructor did not understand these things.

Correct. And I did a big spiel back there on how a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with whether there is an instructor or not will determine success.

Like the instructor should have some sort of clue as to what he is teaching.

But we are isolating this to instruction vs self taught. And that on it's own is not as big a factor.

So for example you really could just go out in to the back yard with some gloves and box and wrestle and walk away from that process a better fighter than say if you went to a school and spent time doing standing arm bars that you gave never had to fight for.

Now admittedly neither of these guys are self taught. But as an example.

 

[drop bear]

My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.

But they deal with firearms and terrorism. I searched shopping centers for bombs after we found one. And a guy I used to work with was shot in a biker dispute.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Could you name that printed manual on first aid please?

Workplace First Aid Manual | Seton

What ever is the most recent edition of that. It was a presumption that its scope includes being a refrence book for laymen as well as persons getting or who have a first aid certificate. (i have a outdated one personally, but i think at best only one or two editions)

 

[Martial D]

Correct. And I did a big spiel back there on how a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with whether there is an instructor or not will determine success.

Like the instructor should have some sort of clue as to what he is teaching.

But we are isolating this to instruction vs self taught. And that on it's own is not as big a factor.

So for example you really could just go out in to the back yard with some gloves and box and wrestle and walk away from that process a better fighter than say if you went to a school and spent time doing standing arm bars that you gave never had to fight for.

Now admittedly neither of these guys are self taught. But as an example.

Ya, totally

There's a scale. At the bottom are 'instructors' that have no clue, and self taught mirror Bruce Lees.

And it goes up from there till you get to the Greg Jackson/Firas Zahabi tier.