On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[drop bear]

I would argue those are mostly the exceptions I've referred to before. And they not remain isolated in their training - they are (by definition of both groups) around others who are using the skills, and are testing them against a non-closed group.

No they are not because the results are consistent.

And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting.

More consistent than say Skribs ever getting an arm bar to work in a fight.

And all of this is because self taught and instructor taught is of less impact than learning in a manner that will actually transfer some sort of skills.

 

[drop bear]

Just for the sake of argument and as a presumption, shouldnt formal school trainign be thrown out? As its essentially pointless to argue on that point as most people would do it if they could do it. And then we fall into the "what if its a bad school/mcdojo/fake system?" dilema. It would be much better to just discuss alternatives on a scale and also non tradtional learning methods. ie would contacting a isntructor and sending videos to them for review be superior to not?

You need to still tick the boxes of a school that creates successful fighters. And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience.

Which are problems you could face going to an instructor anyway.

But for the best development you want as many advantages to your learning as you can. If you can.

 

[dvcochran]

And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting.

And all of this is because self taught and instructor taught is of less impact than learning in a manner that will actually transfer some sort of skills.

And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience.

You contradicted yourself in the two posts.

In the self-training model, how does a person know What to train? Aside from getting pummeled over and over in bar fights. Which I still do not believe will teach a person what Works. At best it may teach you what does Not work it you have any brain cells left to figure that out.
Even if a person watches hundreds of Youtube videos, how do they really know if they work and if they are doing them anywhere near correctly if training on their own?

 

[drop bear]

You contradicted yourself in the two posts.

In the self-training model, how does a person know What to train? Aside from getting pummeled over and over in bar fights. Which I still do not believe will teach a person what Works. At best it may teach you what does Not work it you have any brain cells left to figure that out.
Even if a person watches hundreds of Youtube videos, how do they really know if they work and if they are doing them anywhere near correctly if training on their own?

No there are disadvantages to self training but those disadvantages are not fixed by an instructor in isolation.

So for example a self defense instructor may have been in no more self defense situations than anyone else and is basically doing what rat suggests watching you tube and hoping.

And then how does that instructor know what to train?

Otherwise you would need to test your techniques to see if they work. And an instructor doesn't guarantee that either. Because there are techniques instructors don't test.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No they are not because the results are consistent.

And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting.

More consistent than say Skribs ever getting an arm bar to work in a fight.

And all of this is because self taught and instructor taught is of less impact than learning in a manner that will actually transfer some sort of skills.

I'm not sure your usage of "self-taught" is consistent with the way I've been describing it in the discussion. And I'd be curious how you support the claim that the results are consistent....or are you just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

 

[dvcochran]

And then how does that instructor know what to train?

It had to start somewhere in history. Many principles and styles got started when groups of people gathered together regularly to practice.

Otherwise you would need to test your techniques to see if they work. And an instructor doesn't guarantee that either. Because there are techniques instructors don't test.

Agree. But a workout environment (dojo/dojang) controlled environment in which to test your skills. And usually a better vehicle to get into a competition circuit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And then how does that instructor know what to train?

Through MA tournament experience of course. Is that just common sense?

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure your usage of "self-taught" is consistent with the way I've been describing it in the discussion. And I'd be curious how you support the claim that the results are consistent....or are you just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

They are self taught.

because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

Not the case from my experience.

 

[drop bear]

Through MA tournament experience of course. Is that just common sense?

Depends. There is twisted logic that would suggest that an instructor with no tournament experience and no self defense experience can still teach self defense.

I assume they are basically self taught.

 

[drop bear]

It had to start somewhere in history. Many principles and styles got started when groups of people gathered together regularly to practice.


Agree. But a workout environment (dojo/dojang) controlled environment in which to test your skills. And usually a better vehicle to get into a competition circuit.

That's fine but we are moving away from a method of learning that will probably work. See a technique, practice it, test it on someone then refine the technique. With a separate issue of instructors vs self taught.

I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique.

I could go to a class and never test a technique properly.

 

[drop bear]

just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

How do you define the success of what you teach then?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

They are self taught.

because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

Not the case from my experience.

Where's your proof for it? Someone else posted proof that people who are self taught lose when they enter competitions. Do you have videos or proof showing that bouncers without training do well in full contact competitions?

 

[dvcochran]

I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique.

The same argument still holds. How does an individual working out on their own Without guidance or resistance Know what they are trying to emulate from watching a video is valid and correct?

I could go to a class and never test a technique properly.

Possibly, but the odds of this happening are exponentially less likely.

Working out on your own is required for most people to stay fit and healthy. The quantity and intensity of the workouts go up based on the persons requirements (casual exercise vs. local tourneys vs. circuit fighter, etc...). To be effective, the solo training is done based on what has already been learned from some kind of previous formal/group training.
This is not discounting a persons own knowledge gained from personal experience or lifestyle or even genetics for that matter.

 

[dvcochran]

There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

They are self taught.

because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

Not the case from my experience.

This largely makes the point. Bouncers with little to no training are genetically predisposed. Big, muscular, and strong. How they were raised also plays a huge factor. A couch potato most likely is Not going to be a bouncer no matter how much they fit the typical bouncer model. They are going to have the wrong mentality If a person who fits the bouncer model grew up a little hard and rough, then the transition into bouncing could be quite natural.
Smaller bouncers exist but they either have skills beyond raw strength and physics or do not bounce very long in the 'harsher' environments.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

They are self taught.

because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.

Not the case from my experience.

So, in your experience, the unsucccessful also become bouncers?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do you define the success of what you teach then?

If they are able, in the long run, to apply the principles against someone who's offering resistance. There's a continuum, of course, and some folks (either because of their physical ability or their applied priorities) won't get as far as others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique.

You could. I can. Anybody can. Except if they have no foundation to build upon (no prior training/experience), they are quite likely to fail to understand the important parts and get bits wrong enough they don't learn well. You are not an example of what's being discussed in the thread, because you have a base to build upon.

 

[Tez3]

'Bouncers' in the UK have to do a course to be certified before they can work this includes restraint procedures. Being self taught isn't an option.
Door supervisor licence - GOV.UK

 

[Gweilo]

There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.

 

[dvcochran]

Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.

Possibly, but there are some Big teenagers out there. Add this with hormones, adrenaline, and alcohol and it could be quite a challenge.