Old School vs. New School

[Touch Of Death]

Our school is old school by those definitions. But we only bow to the American flag. Our Christian master does not believe in the yin/yang symbol of the Korean flag. And we have promotional blue and red uniforms. Alot of families achieve belts together and wear the same color uniform. I realize it is not old school but I don't think it detracts from the spirituality of traditional TKD to wear a uniform that is colored. The "power rangers" uniforms of tournaments are another matter. Then they just become costumes for entertainment.

This is really about change. TKD is changing its face. It has been basically the same for hundreds of years, its traditions and values handed down and followed as closely as possible to keep it as valuable as it was when it was incepted even though it has split into kwans, ITF, WTF.

I also think it is the ego that splits away from their master too soon but it is also about the young wanting change. Older people like me do not like change, because we have come to realize that all change is not good. I do the same Kwang Gae/BB form for tournaments. But the guy who wins it doesn't do one difficult kick just yells alot and looks good in his own made up form. I prefer to try to perfect one form the way my master would want it to be done. Its a better gauge of skill to do the same form as the next person.

All these years, all these gadgets ie force gauges weren't necessary. I brought one to school, it was interesting for awhile, but not reliable all the time. I know when I break three boards what force was used. That is the old force gauge. But technology moves on and there will always be a newer, possibly better way to do something.

Change will come, its inevitable. But I hope more slowly and carefully. I truly hope that TKD would become unified, not to lose tradition but to keep it. I would not like to think that tradition, the tenets, and old ways the masters taught would get lost in the struggle just to change for change sake. Then one day we would wonder what went wrong - why isn't it working anymore?

When you do a round house kick or spinning back kick in your own form, isn't the quality of the move judgable on that merit. Is posture, balance, and relaxation not evident unless its expected by the judges at the time it comes in a traditional form? What I'm asking is, isn't it just the same old stuff in a different order?
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

The traditional form I do, has double sidekicks and front kicks. I have worked to get my double to chest and head level (2 sides of these) and my fronts straight up and all are "held" for 2 sec. This was how I was taught. Also long stances, balance, power, focus etc. all matter. To really compete, though I would have to do twice longer made-up form and look (yell and make sssh soundsl) more powerful than a 6' 4" guy. His form does not include any front kicks, side or even round - no real degree of difficulty but he does good stances and hand/arm movement. In fact, he told me he usually makes it up as he goes. !!!! But he has "traditionally" gotten 1st. Not that I really want a trophy, I just feel like I would have to change to a longer form and somehow look more "powerful". Like comparing apples to oranges.sigh!

 

[Shu2jack]

I'm not really sure why you'd have to create a form to do that though. Might as well just run through some shorter drills etc. I've been working on getting my hands better, but I don't need to revamp a pattern to accomplish that. I just hit a heavy bag, working through various combinations etc...

Then why even bother with forms in the first place if you can just do drills and hit targets? Really all I am saying is that every black belt should be allowed at some point to create their own form to go along with the traditional form for their rank. Not only will this show what you know in terms of understanding the concepts and uses of techinques, but also create something of yours and "sew your own design on the quilt that has been handed down for generations".

Exactly! A form can be created and discarded in the course of a week or even a day. Its just a dance like routine to help you work through some ideas.

I was not suggesting disposable forms. You would be better off just going with drills as simply throwing the form away would defeat the purpose of actually learning and practicing a form. If you design a form that you would discard in a day or a week, then the form is probably crap to begin with. I am referring to sitting down and taking days/weeks to focus on designing a form that helps YOU improve on areas that you feel you need to improve on and a form that represents who you are and expresses yourself. This form should last you months or years until your attitudes, physical abilities, and training requirements change.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our school is old school by those definitions. But we only bow to the American flag. Our Christian master does not believe in the yin/yang symbol of the Korean flag. And we have promotional blue and red uniforms. Alot of families achieve belts together and wear the same color uniform. I realize it is not old school but I don't think it detracts from the spirituality of traditional TKD to wear a uniform that is colored. The "power rangers" uniforms of tournaments are another matter. Then they just become costumes for entertainment.

This is really about change. TKD is changing its face. It has been basically the same for hundreds of years, its traditions and values handed down and followed as closely as possible to keep it as valuable as it was when it was incepted even though it has split into kwans, ITF, WTF.

I also think it is the ego that splits away from their master too soon but it is also about the young wanting change. Older people like me do not like change, because we have come to realize that all change is not good. I do the same Kwang Gae/BB form for tournaments. But the guy who wins it doesn't do one difficult kick just yells alot and looks good in his own made up form. I prefer to try to perfect one form the way my master would want it to be done. Its a better gauge of skill to do the same form as the next person.

All these years, all these gadgets ie force gauges weren't necessary. I brought one to school, it was interesting for awhile, but not reliable all the time. I know when I break three boards what force was used. That is the old force gauge. But technology moves on and there will always be a newer, possibly better way to do something.

Change will come, its inevitable. But I hope more slowly and carefully. I truly hope that TKD would become unified, not to lose tradition but to keep it. I would not like to think that tradition, the tenets, and old ways the masters taught would get lost in the struggle just to change for change sake. Then one day we would wonder what went wrong - why isn't it working anymore?

Not to go off on a tangent here, but part of Tae Kwon Do custom means bowing to the Korean flag to acknowlege where it came from. Not putting it ahead of the U.S flag, but respecting TKD's birthplace. To refuse to bow to the Korean flag because you refuse to recognize the Um/Yang symbol means to deny Tae Kwon Do's historical background and philosophy. Then you are not practicing a Korean-born martial art, you are practing merely a set of generic kicks, punches, and blocks. It would be like refusing to bow to the Japanese flag in a Shotokan class because you never got over WWII. IMHO.

 

[TigerWoman]

Our master is a zealous Christian. So because of the symbol– the dark and light thing, the flag went. Hey, recently he said that our teachers have to be Christian. But that's another subject.

I have always felt strange bowing to the Korean flag but it is a tradition. We as Americans practicing another country's martial art can honor the fact that TKD originated in Korea in many other ways and do. In my opinion, I think we are Americans first and we should just bow to the flag of America, my allegiance is not to Korea in any way. It originated as a martial art to defend their country. By not bowing to a symbol of their nationality, does not mean that the history or philosphy of Taekwondo is being denied. An "art" is not a "nationality".

Or look at it this way, do Koreans bow to the flag of United States when they play baseball? Or if they don't play baseball, I know the Japanese do. So, all due respect to Taekwondo and you as a Master, I just don't feel right about it, so I was glad our Master stopped the practice. :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not to go off on a tangent here, but part of Tae Kwon Do custom means bowing to the Korean flag to acknowlege where it came from. Not putting it ahead of the U.S flag, but respecting TKD's birthplace. To refuse to bow to the Korean flag because you refuse to recognize the Um/Yang symbol means to deny Tae Kwon Do's historical background and philosophy. Then you are not practicing a Korean-born martial art, you are practing merely a set of generic kicks, punches, and blocks. It would be like refusing to bow to the Japanese flag in a Shotokan class because you never got over WWII. IMHO.

Why does not bowing to the flag change the system, when the forms and instruction are the same?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Then why even bother with forms in the first place if you can just do drills and hit targets? Really all I am saying is that every black belt should be allowed at some point to create their own form to go along with the traditional form for their rank. Not only will this show what you know in terms of understanding the concepts and uses of techinques, but also create something of yours and "sew your own design on the quilt that has been handed down for generations".


I was not suggesting disposable forms. You would be better off just going with drills as simply throwing the form away would defeat the purpose of actually learning and practicing a form. If you design a form that you would discard in a day or a week, then the form is probably crap to begin with. I am referring to sitting down and taking days/weeks to focus on designing a form that helps YOU improve on areas that you feel you need to improve on and a form that represents who you are and expresses yourself. This form should last you months or years until your attitudes, physical abilities, and training requirements change.

How does your basic motion change in a made up form as opposed to the set form? What makes it crappy?
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

You cannot separate Tae Kwon Do from it's cultural and philosophical heritage. Otherwise, you end up with this generic "American Tae Kwon Do" that represents someone's feeble attempt to practice a Korean martial art without the Korean element. It can't be done. Kinda like trying to learn German while refusing to learn about the culture and heritage behind it. You're just learning words with no meaning behind them.
If you want to understand a person, you must understand their background and where they came from.
I fail to understand how, as a Christian, your Instructor cannot respect the Korean flag because of the symbols. We have several devout Christians in our Organization, and all of them bow to the Korean flag and hang it in class. It is not a religious symbol.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You cannot separate Tae Kwon Do from it's cultural and philosophical heritage. Otherwise, you end up with this generic "American Tae Kwon Do" that represents someone's feeble attempt to practice a Korean martial art without the Korean element. It can't be done. Kinda like trying to learn German while refusing to learn about the culture and heritage behind it. You're just learning words with no meaning behind them.
If you want to understand a person, you must understand their background and where they came from.
I fail to understand how, as a Christian, your Instructor cannot respect the Korean flag because of the symbols. We have several devout Christians in our Organization, and all of them bow to the Korean flag and hang it in class. It is not a religious symbol.

So then if a korean man takes out one element do to his religeon all his koreaness and knowledge of korea imparted is undermined to the point of being American TKD?

 

[Marginal]

So then if a korean man takes out one element do to his religeon all his koreaness and knowledge of korea imparted is undermined to the point of being American TKD?

What does the Korean flag have to do with religion?

 

[Touch Of Death]

What does the Korean flag have to do with religion?

About as much as it has to do with self defense I suppose. :asian:

 

[Marginal]

Nah. I'm pretty sure you could at least bunch up a flag and use it to deflect or tie up attacks etc. Jacky Chan does that all the time with his jackets in those boss films of his.

 

[TigerWoman]

To Marginal:
If you believe that God exists and Jesus Christ is our Savior then you would not believe in the yin/yang symbol which was originally Chinese but adopted by the Koreans in their national flag. On the net it describes why:

Yin Yang Symbol - What's It All About ? ... In short, the Yin Yang symbol represents the circle of life and its extremes and one cannot exist without the other. ...

Alternative Religions Yin Yang symbol. ... The Yin Yang symbol represents the idealised balance of the forces; equalibrium in the universe.

His reason is that if God is the white force...it is not "equal" to the black force. That's all I want to say on the subject.

To Michigan TKD:
The Korean flag is not a TAE KWON DO flag. It does not have history and customs written all over it. It is just a national symbol of a nation. The traditions and customs we practice, the history we learn, continue. We are learning German and learning about Germany, we just don't bow to the German flag. We just don't pay homage to a flag of Korea. We are not separating or taking anything away other than a flag - a piece of material. I understand Michigan TKD, not wanting to whittle away anything from the art but a flag is not the art. I guess we just disagree, I've made my point. And you yours. :asian:

 

[Marginal]

To Marginal:
If you believe that God exists and Jesus Christ is our Savior then you would not believe in the yin/yang symbol which was originally Chinese but adopted by the Koreans in their national flag. On the net it describes why:

It'll get ugly real fast in here if I give my opinion on fundimentalist Christianity mixing with the martial arts, so I'm not going to comment any further than the following response to your instructor's reasoning. Anyone who takes issue with this can PM me if they want to discuss it further, (cause it's gonna go OT fast if my past experiences have taught me anything).

His reason is that if God is the white force...it is not "equal" to the black force. That's all I want to say on the subject.

Yin and yang are supposed to simply represent opposites. Good and evil's one element of that. On each side there are absolutes, and on each side they pool together and muddle. Male and female, hot and cold... All of that's represented in the concept. In practical application in the world around us, life is a series of compromises, absolutes, grey areas etc. Therefore, I have no trouble accepting ying and yang or what have you, because I don't see it as challenging or corrupting my personal beliefs. IMO, if your God/faith's not strong enough to survive you bowing to a flag, you're on flimsy ground spiritually speaking anyway.

He who is without sin casting the first stone, lion laying down with the lamb and all that...

We just don't pay homage to a flag of Korea. We are not separating or taking anything away other than a flag - a piece of material. I understand Michigan TKD, not wanting to whittle away anything from the art but a flag is not the art. I guess we just disagree, I've made my point. And you yours. :asian:

Well along those lines, the Koryo forms are supposed to represent the I Ching. The Chonji patterns all represent things of historical or religious signifigance as well. Bhuddists, neo confucionists, Juche is the concept of self-strengthening which was a largely disasterous policy instituted in most Asian countries (it was diasasterous in Korea) in an attempt to bring themselves up to speed with the western powers etc. If you can't bow to a yin-yang symbol, then I can't see how you can justify performing patterns with similarly weighted signifigance.

Unless of course, it's really just not that big of a deal.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Good point.

If Tigerwoman's instructor is so devoutly Christian that he cannot bow to a flag displaying symbols important to Korean philosophy, how does he justify teaching forms conveying important philosophical concepts? Why even practice or teach Tae Kwon Do if you feel that strongly about it. Something that I've told my students several times is that Tae Kwon Do is NOT religion. It does not advocate any concepts that might supercede peoples' beliefs about God. If God created everything, he must have created Tae Kwon Do as well. And if you hold to the belief that God is good and represents goodness, and TKD is good philosophically, then why can you not practice Tae Kwon Do?
Conversely, I think people like the Sells who use Tae Kwon Do to advance a religious agenda have perverted Tae Kwon Do-used it for something it was not meant to be used for. Tae Kwon Do is not pro-or anti religion. It is neutral.

 

[Shu2jack]

How does your basic motion change in a made up form as opposed to the set form? What makes it crappy?

Well, technically a "set" form is a form that has been made up at some point long ago, but I know what you mean.

The reason why the form will be crappy is because it generally takes years to truly master and understand a form. Would you spend weeks designing a form that you will throw out in a day or a week? No, so what are you gaining? No knowledge to the techniques because you are constantly "throwing" your movements away. To improve you need consistancy in your training. Constantly "throwing away" forms will not help you achieve what you want to achieve as fast as spending time practicing and studying a form someone took the time to design to specifically better some aspect of the body/your techinque.

 

[MichiganTKD]

The best forms, in my opinion, are the ones that require years to fully understand the tiny nuances and subtle movements that, on the surface, may not look impressive, but in reality have a purpose. If you are creating a form that will be thrown out in a short time, by definition it will not have these nuances. It will be merely a superficial avenue to practice technique, in which case you are better off just doing drills.
This is why it takes years of practice and understanding of anatomy, biomechanics, philosophy, and culture to truly create and execute an effective form with real meaning. Something a lower ranking black belt, by definition, is incapable of.
I have had occasion to practice forms with Grandmaster Hae Man Park. These were truly enlightening sessions in which I learned that all is sometimes not what it seems, and a technique that you thought was doing this was in reality doing this instead. Not only that, but you also learn exactly why your hands or feet must be here for a technique to be effective.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Unless of course, it's really just not that big of a deal.

I think your little joke just hit the nail on the head, but know this, not every one will bow to something they don't believe in, nor should they be expected too. Perhaps that is why "American" TKD is squeezing out the traditional.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, technically a "set" form is a form that has been made up at some point long ago, but I know what you mean.

The reason why the form will be crappy is because it generally takes years to truly master and understand a form. Would you spend weeks designing a form that you will throw out in a day or a week? No, so what are you gaining? No knowledge to the techniques because you are constantly "throwing" your movements away. To improve you need consistancy in your training. Constantly "throwing away" forms will not help you achieve what you want to achieve as fast as spending time practicing and studying a form someone took the time to design to specifically better some aspect of the body/your techinque.

You can rob all those little nuances from the set form. Motion is but motion.
Sean :asian:

 

[Shu2jack]

Motion is but motion.

Understanding that "it does" is not enough. You need to understand why and how. That is a purpose of a form.

Motion is motion, but you can not improve a motion if you are constantly changing that motion.

Honestly, I will just leave it at that. It does not seem like we are going to reach an understanding to this.