Old School Taekwondo Being Practically All Kicks

[punisher73]

The reason was more than likely that in the 1950's to early 1970's the image of what TK-D was had not been corrupted by WT style sparring. So, while whatever you were familiar with was not the same "Style" as what those who trained in the Late 1950's - early 1970's was not the same as whatever gave you thought about a system irrespective of having a similar moniker.

Maybe, but I have known other instructors (American) that got their blackbelts in Korea during the 60's in TKD and they also were taught keeping their distance and using kicks as the primary weapon and as the finisher.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If that last part is true, then the school wasn't actually teaching - during the other classes - the skills used in kumite (or anything that reinforces them).

Oh, the other classes were definitely teaching - things that you can't do in WKF style kumite. Which is probably the majority of the curriculum.

Check out some WKF kumite matches on YouTube when you get a chance. You can't even do knee or elbow strikes.

I think competitive sparring works for sport, and that non-competitive sparring works best for self-defense.

 

[HighKick]

Oh, the other classes were definitely teaching - things that you can't do in WKF style kumite. Which is probably the majority of the curriculum.

Check out some WKF kumite matches on YouTube when you get a chance. You can't even do knee or elbow strikes.

I think competitive sparring works for sport, and that non-competitive sparring works best for self-defense.

WKF is much like WT or even kickboxing in most formal settings. You learn the rules, you learn to manipulate the rules as much as possible, and you compete within the rules.
The one thing I will give WT credit for until the electronic scoring was consistency in scoring. Sure, there was variants at the local level, but the electronic scoring gear is rather inconsistent in registering points. I am sure glad I don't compete anymore.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Maybe, but I have known other instructors (American) that got their blackbelts in Korea during the 60's in TKD and they also were taught keeping their distance and using kicks as the primary weapon and as the finisher.

Not many TK-D BB's in Korea from the 1960's since it only began and started developing in the Korean Military in 1955. Were they in fact "TKD" or some previous system that adopted the name?

 

[punisher73]

Not many TK-D BB's in Korea from the 1960's since it only began and started developing in the Korean Military in 1955. Were they in fact "TKD" or some previous system that adopted the name?

To be honest, I'm not sure. He always referred to it as TKD. He was stationed in Korea as a linguist in the 60's and trained in Korea.

 

[Earl Weiss]

To be honest, I'm not sure. He always referred to it as TKD. He was stationed in Korea as a linguist in the 60's and trained in Korea.

As an Example Chuck Norris in early books refers to his TSD training in Korea but in later books calls it TKD.

 

[punisher73]

As an Example Chuck Norris in early books refers to his TSD training in Korea but in later books calls it TKD.

His instructor in Korea was Yon Ho Kang. I believe he was involved with the ITF later on when that group started.

 

[isshinryuronin]

As an Example Chuck Norris in early books refers to his TSD training in Korea but in later books calls it TKD.

Was this due to TKD being heavily marketed and having better name recognition do you think, or was there just a change in his organizational membership, or a combo of both? By the early 70's his fame was well established and organizational support for his further success wasn't needed. Up to this time he called it TSD.

His sparring certainly did not resemble TKD, heavily relying on quick hand combos, his trademark in his early tournament point sparring days. Was this a basic stylistic difference in TSD vs TKD or just his individual style outside of TSD?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Was this due to TKD being heavily marketed and having better name recognition do you think, or was there just a change in his organizational membership, or a combo of both? By the early 70's his fame was well established and organizational support for his further success wasn't needed. Up to this time he called it TSD.

His sparring certainly did not resemble TKD, heavily relying on quick hand combos, his trademark in his early tournament point sparring days. Was this a basic stylistic difference in TSD vs TKD or just his individual style outside of TSD?

The little bit of TSD I experienced in the 90’s (a friend from college was teaching TSD), that is an apt description of the TSD I saw.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Was this due to TKD being heavily marketed and having better name recognition do you think, or was there just a change in his organizational membership, or a combo of both? By the early 70's his fame was well established and organizational support for his further success wasn't needed. Up to this time he called it TSD.

His sparring certainly did not resemble TKD, heavily relying on quick hand combos, his trademark in his early tournament point sparring days. Was this a basic stylistic difference in TSD vs TKD or just his individual style outside of TSD?

TSD was essentially Shotokan, so it was less focused on kicking.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Was this due to TKD being heavily marketed and having better name recognition do you think, or was there just a change in his organizational membership, or a combo of both? By the early 70's his fame was well established and organizational support for his further success wasn't needed. Up to this time he called it TSD.

His sparring certainly did not resemble TKD, heavily relying on quick hand combos, his trademark in his early tournament point sparring days. Was this a basic stylistic difference in TSD vs TKD or just his individual style outside of TSD?

IMO it was because TKD had become better known than TSD by the time the later books were published.

I think as far as style goes he used whatever he could make work taking whatever he could from wherever. But the real answers would come from him.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So from what I've seen with modern Taekwondo they do lots of high kicks, sometimes in quick succession combos to look flashy. In Karate from Japan and Okinawa and in Maui Thai they also do lots of kicks but in those arts they aren't so concerned with looking flashy, rather the emphasis is on maximum power, so in those arts maximum power with the kicks is the focus, not kicking high or looking flashy.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So from what I've seen with modern Taekwondo they do lots of high kicks, sometimes in quick succession combos to look flashy. In Karate from Japan and Okinawa and in Maui Thai they also do lots of kicks but in those arts they aren't so concerned with looking flashy, rather the emphasis is on maximum power, so in those arts maximum power with the kicks is the focus, not kicking high or looking flashy.

Wrong. Again.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So from what I've seen with modern Taekwondo they do lots of high kicks, sometimes in quick succession combos to look flashy. In Karate from Japan and Okinawa and in Maui Thai they also do lots of kicks but in those arts they aren't so concerned with looking flashy, rather the emphasis is on maximum power, so in those arts maximum power with the kicks is the focus, not kicking high or looking flashy.

So every TKD form that I've seen had more hand strikes and blocks than kicking. Which amazes me because in sparring and in sport they kick soooooo much lol. But If I was going to make an assumption about what a martial art is or isn't about then I would look at the forms more so than the sport.

The forms of a martial arts gives you a really good representation about that martial art. The sports often give you a reduced representation about a martial arts.

Nothing flashy about this. Kicks are on spot too as they are head level, which is the standard for most traditional martial arts.

Nothing flashy about this. All practical.

Totally different than what we see when they spar.

 

[isshinryuronin]

TSD was essentially Shotokan, so it was less focused on kicking.

I was going to comment on Chuck Norris' kata performance in a couple of tournaments I watched back in the late 60's, but it's sooo long ago I can't remember any details regarding his stylistic execution. I do remember them looking fast and sharp and deserving of the trophies he won. He was one of the few that excelled in both forms and sparring competition.

 

[Steve]

I think a clearer way to say it is if you're only training for a specific sport/ruleset, you should adapt in every way that gives you an advantage - and there's not much reason to train anything that doesn't. It sounds like that's what this instructor was doing - teaching for the sport ruleset. Since tucking the chin doesn't convey an advantage in that ruleset, there's no reason to train it when training only for that ruleset.

Of course, if you're using the sport as part of your training, but hoping to become a better fighter, overall (whether for SD or for other rulesets, as well), you'd want to generally train good fighting habits, even if they don't convey an advantage - and some of them even if they convey a disadvantage in a specific ruleset. (For that latter, you'd probably also spend some time training specifically foir that ruleset to reduce that disadvantage.)

Agreed. But if the goal is to be a better fighter, for any context, the answer isn’t less application. It’s more (and more diverse) application.

 

[HighKick]

So every TKD form that I've seen had more hand strikes and blocks than kicking. Which amazes me because in sparring and in sport they kick soooooo much lol. But If I was going to make an assumption about what a martial art is or isn't about then I would look at the forms more so than the sport.

The forms of a martial arts gives you a really good representation about that martial art. The sports often give you a reduced representation about a martial arts.

Nothing flashy about this. Kicks are on spot too as they are head level, which is the standard for most traditional martial arts.

Nothing flashy about this. All practical.

Totally different than what we see when they spar.

A good point. I would aver that the number one component to glean from forms in any style of martial arts is to learn and polish the foundational elements of the style. In this context, footwork/stance work are very important in TKD forms/hyungs/poomsae. In some, not all TKD schools, there is a heavy element of self-defense taught in forms.
In Every TKD school I have been to (and that is a lot of schools) more of the functional/competitive training is outside of forms training, but more of the traditional/mental/spiritual training are inside the forms.

FWIW, the three form videos, are time in training progressive, with the last form being a mid-color belt form, so understandably, there is a greater level of simplicity to the form.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So every TKD form that I've seen had more hand strikes and blocks than kicking.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but that first video appears to be a Taikyoku (or Pinan/Heian) that was specifically designed for TKD. Taikyokus in karate do not have kicks in them - at least not the original ones designed by Gigo Funakoshi that are still used in Shotokai (many karate schools have designed their own Taikyokus [e.g., some Shito-ryu schools have them, and call them "Kihon Katas"], so there may be some that do. But I don't imagine them having nearly as many as shown in the video).

The Pinan/Heian wth the highest number of kicks is yondan, and that's four plus one knee strike.

 

[HighKick]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but that first video appears to be a Taikyoku (or Pinan/Heian) that was specifically designed for TKD. Taikyokus in karate do not have kicks in them - at least not the original ones designed by Gigo Funakoshi that are still used in Shotokai (many karate schools have designed their own Taikyokus [e.g., some Shito-ryu schools have them, and call them "Kihon Katas"], so there may be some that do. But I don't imagine them having nearly as many as shown in the video).

The Pinan/Heian wth the highest number of kicks is yondan, and that's four plus one knee strike.

The Heian hyungs definitely derived from Shotokan/Okinawan styles or Japanese descent. The Pinan's were derived from the Heian forms and are almost (usually) identical. In some (most) TKD/TSD schools that do the Pinan's, the pattern and movements are exactly the same as the Heian's but the Way the movements are done is different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. But if the goal is to be a better fighter, for any context, the answer isn’t less application. It’s more (and more diverse) application.

I’m unclear how that relates to my post.