old MA mag article?

[Oily Dragon]

Any suggestions for traditional Wing Chun leg drills? There's tons of hand drills on the internet but not nearly any much leg stuff

The key stance connecting Wing Chun with its ancestors like Southern Dragon, White Eyebrow, and Hung Ga Kuen is the Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma for a good reason. This is a very powerful exercise that focuses spinal and pelvis alignment, quadracept tension, core engagement, and breathing.

A lot of Wing Chun students practice this is a fighting stance, and shouldn't. It's really an exercise in endurance and flexibility (which is why it's a fundamental stance in the other southern arts).

Grab a big pillow (or other person if you're that lucky), and squeeze with your inner thighs. Repeat. I think this is probably one of the best drills there is (trapping someone with your legs and core until one of you expires). How far in you can turn your toes is, believe it or not, says a lot about your inner tension. If you're tight anywhere else, forget about your toes, man.

 

[Eric_H]

Wing Chun with its ancestors like Southern Dragon, White Eyebrow, and Hung Ga Kuen

There is no credible proof any of these styles are direct ancestors of wing chun. Please stop peddling this snake oil.

Yi Gee Kim Yeung Ma like stances are found in Wutang kung fu as well. Are you going to tell me Leurng Yi or Sei Yern Kuen is a WC ancestor too?

A lot of Wing Chun students practice this is a fighting stance, and shouldn't. It's really an exercise in endurance and flexibility (which is why it's a fundamental stance in the other southern arts).

If you think it's just for exercise, or a strength-building stance like Sei Ping Ma is for other styles, you are missing the point IMO. In free fighting, Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma is most commonly executed as an action, not a stance.

The static stance is there to teach you how to feel what it's like to be rooted in the WC way - most other WC footwork is derived from YGKYM and every step should end with the YGKYM action of grounding. I agree that it is not a static stance to be stood in blindly for fighting, but if you are not using the "verb" of YGKYM in every step, I would say you have not developed WC footwork.

Grab a big pillow (or other person if you're that lucky), and squeeze with your inner thighs. Repeat. I think this is probably one of the best drills there is (trapping someone with your legs and core until one of you expires). How far in you can turn your toes is, believe it or not, says a lot about your inner tension. If you're tight anywhere else, forget about your toes, man.

I've never heard about this type of exercise, but reads like you're advocating to be on the extreme end of the YGKYM stance like I've seen some in the Leung Ting based lines do. Probably not my cup of tea, but if it aids your training, more power to you.

 

[CMyers0323]

The key stance connecting Wing Chun with its ancestors like Southern Dragon, White Eyebrow, and Hung Ga Kuen is the Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma for a good reason. This is a very powerful exercise that focuses spinal and pelvis alignment, quadracept tension, core engagement, and breathing.

A lot of Wing Chun students practice this is a fighting stance, and shouldn't. It's really an exercise in endurance and flexibility (which is why it's a fundamental stance in the other southern arts).

Grab a big pillow (or other person if you're that lucky), and squeeze with your inner thighs. Repeat. I think this is probably one of the best drills there is (trapping someone with your legs and core until one of you expires). How far in you can turn your toes is, believe it or not, says a lot about your inner tension. If you're tight anywhere else, forget about your toes, man.

The "hour glass stance" right? If so Thats cool. I've been told it's really good and it wasn't until I heard about an application for blocking groin strikes that I was able to appreciate it more. I can definitely see the spinal alignment since it some how reminds me of doing the wuji or spinal alignment from Tai Chi. Wow that drill is so simple yet it sounds amazing I think I'll be practicing it from now on. It's the simple stuff that really gets me wanting to train harder haha. I've been trying to think of ways to apply trapping to the legs and wholebbody really so this helps alot! Yeah makes sense I've been reading more about relaxing and such which I've always been told but being given actual methods just shows all the tension we carry. Thanks though I'll be using this from now on!

 

[Oily Dragon]

The "hour glass stance" right? If so Thats cool. I've been told it's really good and it wasn't until I heard about an application for blocking groin strikes that I was able to appreciate it more. I can definitely see the spinal alignment since it some how reminds me of doing the wuji or spinal alignment from Tai Chi. Wow that drill is so simple yet it sounds amazing I think I'll be practicing it from now on. It's the simple stuff that really gets me wanting to train harder haha. I've been trying to think of ways to apply trapping to the legs and wholebbody really so this helps alot! Yeah makes sense I've been reading more about relaxing and such which I've always been told but being given actual methods just shows all the tension we carry. Thanks though I'll be using this from now on!

Wing Chun students often focus on striking and trapping applications from the waist up and tend to ignore the real power (which comes from older neijia) in the style, which is based on very common Southern family elements (Dragon, etc.)

I'd reckon 99% of Wing Chun aficionados don't even get to this level of training (the crushing gwat). They'll be happy with slapboxing.

 

[CMyers0323]

Wing Chun students often focus on striking and trapping applications from the waist up and tend to ignore the real power (which comes from older neijia) in the style, which is based on very common Southern family elements (Dragon, etc.)

I'd reckon 99% of Wing Chun aficionados don't even get to this level of training (the crushing gwat). They'll be happy with slapboxing.

Yeah I agree. I've seen alot of fights and you can almost feel their focus or just energy is strictly upper body. I'm all about using the whole body in as many ways as you can. I guess it was when I found out "wing chun doesn't kick" I decided to do my research cause it just didn't feel right to not use my legs. I'm sure they don't I'm always looking for new ways to train are there resources I can find with this stuff?

 

[Oily Dragon]

There is no credible proof any of these styles are direct ancestors of wing chun. Please stop peddling this snake oil.

It's academic research from the last 20 years (Judkins et. al.). Most of the valuable, legitimate academic research on Wing Chun is less than 20 years old (which is why when I read old Black Belt Magazine articles about Wing Chun, they read like pure fantasy). Wing Chun is much younger than these other styles, but grew up immersed in them, and it contains a lot less material, but identical material, to styles like Hung Kuen, and what it does contain (like the Adduction Stance) is, quite frankly, some of the best, most legit Shaolin training material out there. And thus, ripe for exploitation and commercialization for a long time, sadly.

There is a rich cultural history that Wing Chun is part of that includes interactions with masters of Southern Dragon, Bak Mei, all Five major southern families, the related styles such as Five Ancestor fist. As far as ancestral influences, WC probably has about a dozen contributing styles (all of which are mentioned in the academic literature above). They are ancestors, since they are older. And everything seen as Wing Chun today goes back to people in the last 200 years who trained with those other styles, and merged them. This is kind of like the people who train MMA today, but choose to represent a specific art (for WC, Alan Orr is probably the best, but not only example).

If anything is "Snake oil", it's the stuff peddled by Wing Chun teachers for the last 100, especially in schools that missed out on things like Guoshu. I prefer to disillusion people using stuff from real historians, rather than "Class notes", which vary in quality especially around "lineage". In fact, I hate discussing lineages because nothing is more untrustworthy in CMA, imho. I often come across stuff in the literature that dismantles something older I found somewhere else, but as far as the connected lineages, that stuff is easy to show especially in the southern parts of China (because we're dealing with the more or less modern post-Ming era, rather than ancient writings and artwork which are out there, but far more open to interpretation).

Yi Gee Kim Yeung Ma like stances are found in Wutang kung fu as well. Are you going to tell me Leurng Yi or Sei Yern Kuen is a WC ancestor too?

"Wutang kung fu", is also not its own entity in a vacuum. There is really no such thing, the styles found at Wutang were also found at Shaolin. Shaolin Si was actually a major epicenter in the development of Tai Chi (Mahar). Wutang mountain just happens to be one of many where Taoism (not even martial arts, but actual priesthood) flourished.

Yi Gee Kim Yeurng Ma "like" stances are not the same as the canonical form found in the south, either. Like a lot of other southern stancework it is lower, and more body weight oriented.

If you think it's just for exercise, or a strength-building stance like Sei Ping Ma is for other styles, you are missing the point IMO. In free fighting, Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma is most commonly executed as an action, not a stance.

Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma should never, ever used a fighting stance in CMA. I'd argue this with any so-called "master" on earth. Unless you completely drop the "Yee Gi" part and stand with your feet parallel, which is also a terrible stance for fighting and getting thrown. It's closest to say, the Muay Thai stance, but even that basic stance shows the risks of "Free fighting" with such a method.

As an action? Yee Gi is found in some training stance transitions (including Iron Wire, a very high level southern set). But for "Free fighting, it doesn't even make sense from a physiological point of view. It's right there in the name, "Yee Gi". A lot of people will claim to do the "Yee Gi Ma", and not realize they're missing the "二" part.

I've never heard about this type of exercise, but reads like you're advocating to be on the extreme end of the YGKYM stance like I've seen some in the Leung Ting based lines do. Probably not my cup of tea, but if it aids your training, more power to you.

I've learned several versions of the stance (the Shaolin qigong versions, the Iron Thread internal training versions, the WC version). Sure, there's a range (and more "internal"/less "external" versions are important at higher levels to avoid injury).

As far as "extreme", it's important to keep in mind the key focus of Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma is "goat riding" thigh squeezing strength, hip flexibility, which is why it's found in many internal qigong sets. Rooting, sure but in a very fundamental way (Hung Kuen students learn it on day with in some lineages).

One of Neigong's goals is to relax the whole body and increase mobility, while building muscle, tendon, and ligament strength. The old Shaolin way of doing this for the "Gwat" region is the Yee Gi (one of the oldest extant stances in MA history next to the 5 and 11), and it's basically the same as doing this kind of drill, but in body weight mode.

 

[wckf92]

(the crushing gwat)

Can you explain what is meant by this term? Thanks!

 

[wckf92]

wing chun doesn't kick

Who told you that!?

 

[CMyers0323]

Who told you that!?

Maybe not completely that they don't kick but that there isn't alot of kicking. Unless if it was a misunderstanding that there aren't many actual kicks? I know the 8 kicks can be made into many but that takes a higher level of understanding.
My most recent memory of someone saying it wad
a more recent video I saw of some Wing Chun guy teaching this martial arts youtuber named "sensi seth" the guys funny but weather his skits are his true feelings or not doesn't seem to support Tma. Anyways he had this guy teach him Wing Chun (can't remember the guys name) and he said that usually Wing Chun doesn't kick alot.

I guess it's just something people always thought that Wing Chun is more hands than feet. Then you got the wana be people who just do the movie Wing Chun stuff.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The Bubishi* illustrates and describes 48 self-defense situations with counters, NONE of which feature kicks. There are a couple of ground defense (or drop moves) with leg scissors, a surprising number of other leg grab takedowns, and one sweep, but not a single kick. There are 5 moves showing testicle grabs and 6 entailing strikes to the larynx and/or eyes.

The style seems to be related to Monk Fist (Arhat Boxing) which, along with White Crane, are thought to be the main Chinese ingredients in Okinawan karate. Indeed, as McCarthy Hanshin, has pointed out, many of the techniques illustrated can still be found in today's katas.

The above-mentioned breakdown of techniques I think illustrates where early karate placed its emphasis - debilitating strikes and grappling takedowns. Additionally, in the 48 sequences only ONE punch is featured; all other strikes are with the open hand.

I have previously noted some similarities between Wing Chun and traditional Okinawan karate. Few kicks were used, and those were usually aimed at the groin and knees.

* (For those not familiar, the Bubishi is a Chinese text highly prized by early karate masters such as Kyan, Higaonna, Mabuni, Funakoshi, Miyagi and Shimabuku.)

 

[Oily Dragon]

Can you explain what is meant by this term? Thanks!

I'll try to find a hanzi version but it generally refers to the baby making region and the muscles around it. It's a fundamental " internal" method and shows up almost everywhere that matters.

The Yee Gi has many names for a good reason. Some are coded, some are kind of obvious. Character II, Goat Riding, Adduction.

My Tai chi chuan sifu really understands the concept. It's all about landscaping.

 

[Callen]

Any suggestions for traditional Wing Chun leg drills?

When you say traditional Wing Chun leg drills, what do you mean?

Both kicking and footwork are covered throughout the curriculum. The forms build on footwork repeatedly; and like all of the Wing Chun concepts and principles, there are various drills and applications that develop those attributes into skill, leg drills included. The Baat Jam Do form for example, is arguably one of the most important guides in terms of developing swift, proactive footwork. It has even been said that the BJD form is more about footwork than it is about the knives.

There's tons of hand drills on the internet but not nearly any much leg stuff

I know we have touched on this a little in past posts, but you can only learn so much from the internet. If you really want to truly understand the system, training with a knowledgeable sifu/coach/instructor is the way. No offense, of course.

I guess it was when I found out "wing chun doesn't kick" I decided to do my research cause it just didn't feel right to not use my legs. I'm sure they don't I'm always looking for new ways to train are there resources I can find this stuff?

So if you need to kick, you kick. It’s that simple.

Whole body unity, structure and kicks all follow all of the same concepts and principles in Wing Chun, we do not separate them into stand-alone ideas. There's no need to look too far, it's all explained in the mechanics.

Structure development, footwork and unit power can be found in several places. Chum Kiu (沉橋) introduces body unity, structure, kicking and linked footwork. Luk Dim Boon Gwan (六點半棍) reinforces body unity in application, and develops punching power through the connection of dynamic footwork, the waist and elbows.... just to name a few.

 

[Eric_H]

It's academic research from the last 20 years (Judkins et. al.). Most of the valuable, legitimate academic research on Wing Chun is less than 20 years old (which is why when I read old Black Belt Magazine articles about Wing Chun, they read like pure fantasy). Wing Chun is much younger than these other styles, but grew up immersed in them, and it contains a lot less material, but identical material, to styles like Hung Kuen, and what it does contain (like the Adduction Stance) is, quite frankly, some of the best, most legit Shaolin training material out there. And thus, ripe for exploitation and commercialization for a long time, sadly.

I think we can all agree, most versions of WC history have to be taken with a grain of salt. I've not read Judkin's work, so I will not comment on it, however I don't see why his version should not also be open to scrutiny. I don't believe WC is younger than all of the styles you listed as they mostly were supposedly formed between 1730-1850, with various re-formattings done by notable masters here and there.

There is a rich cultural history that Wing Chun is part of that includes interactions with masters of Southern Dragon, Bak Mei, all Five major southern families, the related styles such as Five Ancestor fist. As far as ancestral influences, WC probably has about a dozen contributing styles (all of which are mentioned in the academic literature above). They are ancestors, since they are older. And everything seen as Wing Chun today goes back to people in the last 200 years who trained with those other styles, and merged them. This is kind of like the people who train MMA today, but choose to represent a specific art (for WC, Alan Orr is probably the best, but not only example).

Every mom is a woman but not every woman is your mom. Just because these styles existed does not mean they had direct influence on WC's founding. However, it seems we fundamentally have a disconnect - I see WC as a purposeful departure from the animal style mindset+body (This has been attributed to monks/nuns, military influence, secret societies, take your pick as to the reason) whereas many other styles are clear evolution on the animal style frames - Hung Kuen or Chi Sim Weng Chun is a great example of this.

To continue on the attitude of an animal concept but have it driven by a fundamentally different engine and structure is not a father to son type of direct relationship.

If anything is "Snake oil", it's the stuff peddled by Wing Chun teachers for the last 100, especially in schools that missed out on things like Guoshu. I prefer to disillusion people using stuff from real historians, rather than "Class notes", which vary in quality especially around "lineage". In fact, I hate discussing lineages because nothing is more untrustworthy in CMA, imho. I often come across stuff in the literature that dismantles something older I found somewhere else, but as far as the connected lineages, that stuff is easy to show especially in the southern parts of China (because we're dealing with the more or less modern post-Ming era, rather than ancient writings and artwork which are out there, but far more open to interpretation).

I think it is a bit far fetched to say every WC teacher of the last 100 years is purposely being deceiving.

"Wutang kung fu", is also not its own entity in a vacuum. There is really no such thing, the styles found at Wutang were also found at Shaolin. Shaolin Si was actually a major epicenter in the development of Tai Chi (Mahar). Wutang mountain just happens to be one of many where Taoism (not even martial arts, but actual priesthood) flourished.

Yi Gee Kim Yeurng Ma "like" stances are not the same as the canonical form found in the south, either. Like a lot of other southern stancework it is lower, and more body weight oriented.

This is why I listed the specific styles. Wutang is it's own bag of politics, not worth diving in to for this discussion. My point is that these shapes show up not necessarily because of parentage or styles, but because the human body only works so many ways.

Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma should never, ever used a fighting stance in CMA. I'd argue this with any so-called "master" on earth. Unless you completely drop the "Yee Gi" part and stand with your feet parallel, which is also a terrible stance for fighting and getting thrown. It's closest to say, the Muay Thai stance, but even that basic stance shows the risks of "Free fighting" with such a method.

As an action? Yee Gi is found in some training stance transitions (including Iron Wire, a very high level southern set). But for "Free fighting, it doesn't even make sense from a physiological point of view. It's right there in the name, "Yee Gi". A lot of people will claim to do the "Yee Gi Ma", and not realize they're missing the "二" part.

I've learned several versions of the stance (the Shaolin qigong versions, the Iron Thread internal training versions, the WC version). Sure, there's a range (and more "internal"/less "external" versions are important at higher levels to avoid injury).

As far as "extreme", it's important to keep in mind the key focus of Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma is "goat riding" thigh squeezing strength, hip flexibility, which is why it's found in many internal qigong sets. Rooting, sure but in a very fundamental way (Hung Kuen students learn it on day with in some lineages).

I think we are in some alignment here, but your point isn't totally clear.

One of Neigong's goals is to relax the whole body and increase mobility, while building muscle, tendon, and ligament strength. The old Shaolin way of doing this for the "Gwat" region is the Yee Gi (one of the oldest extant stances in MA history next to the 5 and 11), and it's basically the same as doing this kind of drill, but in body weight mode.

This paragraph seems to contradict your earlier statement of the difference between Yi Gee Ma and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, so I don't quite follow. I dig the video though, we do some similar mobility stuff at my weightlifting gym.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I think we can all agree, most versions of WC history have to be taken with a grain of salt. I've not read Judkin's work, so I will not comment on it, however I don't see why his version should not also be open to scrutiny. I don't believe WC is younger than all of the styles you listed as they mostly were supposedly formed between 1730-1850, with various re-formattings done by notable masters here and there.

Every mom is a woman but not every woman is your mom. Just because these styles existed does not mean they had direct influence on WC's founding. However, it seems we fundamentally have a disconnect - I see WC as a purposeful departure from the animal style mindset+body (This has been attributed to monks/nuns, military influence, secret societies, take your pick as to the reason) whereas many other styles are clear evolution on the animal style frames - Hung Kuen or Chi Sim Weng Chun is a great example of this.

First and foremost, Judkins is probably the most authoritative historian on Wing Chun's creation. Hence the name of their book,

The Creation of Wing Chun

This book explores the social history of southern Chinese martial arts and their contemporary importance to local identity and narratives of resistance. Hong Kong's Bruce Lee ushered the Chinese martial arts onto an international stage in the 1970s. Lee's teacher, Ip Man, master of Wing Chun...

www.google.com

Wing Chun is unmistakeably Dragon, Snake, and Crane. Whether or not people see other older styles like the Plum Flower depends on their experience, which unfortunately in the case of Wing Chun is so scarred and marred by controversy.

That's why it's important to be positively critical of Wing Chun, to combat the negativity of the last 30 years. Wing Chun is a melting pot, and those are always frought with drama. For comparison, see Hung Ga Kuen! (Hundreds of movies compared to Wing Chun).

I think it is a bit far fetched to say every WC teacher of the last 100 years is purposely being deceiving.

How familiar are you with the Eight Immortals?

All of Chinese warfare is deception, dude. Right to the final inch (cheurng kiu).

This paragraph seems to contradict your earlier statement of the difference between Yi Gee Ma and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, so I don't quite follow. I dig the video though, we do some similar mobility stuff at my weightlifting gym.

Yee/Yi is the character 2 in hanzi. It's simple to describe in writing in the BC era. You put your feet in that formation, and sink the root.

Later on, somebody starts pointing out (in writing) these are basic animal mounting skills. Duh.

Fast forward a few thousand years, today we know the importance of keeping the gwat region strong. This, according to the Daoists, is the elixir they seek. The Shaolin would laugh it off, and continue to sweep around the temple gate.

The Wing Chun student just needs to own their inner animal spirit. This is easier in other styles, their training is more diverse. But there's nothing more kung fu than willpower. You can always spot real kung fu that way, by what the student builds. Wing Chun's hallmark has always been potential.

 

[Eric_H]

First and foremost, Judkins is probably the most authoritative historian on Wing Chun's creation. Hence the name of their book,

According to who? You may find him so, but as far as I know, his work isn't widely accepted by the WC community.

Wing Chun is unmistakeably Dragon, Snake, and Crane. Whether or not people see other older styles like the Plum Flower depends on their experience, which unfortunately in the case of Wing Chun is so scarred and marred by controversy.

As before, I agree that WC has animal attitudes - but again this does not imply parentage from animal styles. When I talk of parentage, it is like having a new model year on a car - usually things get better, new bells and whistles are added, but the core frame and engine remain the same. When the same company goes to make a new car on a new frame, they take with it some of the learnings of the previous models, but when the frame and engine are new, it is not the same beast anymore. That's not evolution on the same concept, it's a purposeful departure.

How familiar are you with the Eight Immortals?

We grab a beer every other sunday. They're some great people.

All of Chinese warfare is deception, dude. Right to the final inch (cheurng kiu).

Ok, so you're saying all WC teachers are actively lying. That's a bold claim.

Fast forward a few thousand years, today we know the importance of keeping the gwat region strong. This, according to the Daoists, is the elixir they seek. The Shaolin would laugh it off, and continue to sweep around the temple gate.

The Wing Chun student just needs to own their inner animal spirit. This is easier in other styles, their training is more diverse. But there's nothing more kung fu than willpower. You can always spot real kung fu that way, by what the student builds. Wing Chun's hallmark has always been potential.

You've kind of circled back on my original point though - similar lines of knowledge from different sources tend to converge on things that are actually true. Per what you've said here, other arts can arrive at the same conclusion of how to develop certain things in an upright stance. This doesn't mean all of those arts are the direct ancestor of something that pulls from that common truth.

 

[CMyers0323]

When you say traditional Wing Chun leg drills, what do you mean?

Both kicking and footwork are covered throughout the curriculum. The forms build on footwork repeatedly; and like all of the Wing Chun concepts and principles, there are various drills and applications that develop those attributes into skill, leg drills included. The Baat Jam Do form for example, is arguably one of the most important guides in terms of developing swift, proactive footwork. It has even been said that the BJD form is more about footwork than it is about the knives.


I know we have touched on this a little in past posts, but you can only learn so much from the internet. If you really want to truly understand the system, training with a knowledgeable sifu/coach/instructor is the way. No offense, of course.


So if you need to kick, you kick. It’s that simple.

Whole body unity, structure and kicks all follow all of the same concepts and principles in Wing Chun, we do not separate them into stand-alone ideas. There's no need to look too far, it's all explained in the mechanics.

Structure development, footwork and unit power can be found in several places. Chum Kiu (沉橋) introduces body unity, structure, kicking and linked footwork. Luk Dim Boon Gwan (六點半棍) reinforces body unity in application, and develops punching power through the connection of dynamic footwork, the waist and elbows.... just to name a few.

I guess what I mean for leg drills would be like it another forum here they talk about Ip Man having a special leg drill where they used a stick of some sorts to strengthen the leg. I've also seen other drill outside of Wing Chun using the "kicking shield" target and have a 3 man rotating drill. Stuff like that. I just wasn't sure if there was any Wing Chun firect leg drills.


Oh yeah I definitely agree. While I do train and train in school I usually use my down time to study what I can on the Internet or through books just as an extra way of training haha. Yeah i get what your saying its been some time since i was able to stop by the Wing Chun School near me but i do agee nothing like just jumping in and training.

Yeah thats always been my belief I looked into the Wing Chun kicking just to see how I could make it more effective and it seems Wing Chun had its own method of kicking rather than a traditional shaolin type or other style. I'll have to take a closer look at Chum Kiu. I know all of the stuff looks simple but there's alot more to it. I'll check out Luk Dim Boon Gwan and I appreciate the advise its always nice to be able to talk anything martial arts with other knowledgeable people .

 

[Oily Dragon]

According to who? You may find him so, but as far as I know, his work isn't widely accepted by the WC community.

The East Asia Program of Cornell University. He's a Visiting Scholar there.

There's a lot in the book (which is meticulously researched) that will upset Wing Chun students, but none of it is very surprising.

As far as respectable academic works on kung fu, there are few, and this (along with those of scholars like Meir Shahar on Shaolin) is one of those few.

Somebody (Geezer) called it dry. I agree, it's terribly boring, and there are no pictures of techniques or breakdowns of the style. Just who trained it, where, when, how, and where they fit into the big family tree (which is super enormously complex).

As before, I agree that WC has animal attitudes - but again this does not imply parentage from animal styles.

Well the Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma is the basic Crane animal stance in a lot of different CMA, the Biu Ji is part of Snake styles, etc. Wing Chun didn't invent it.

The Dragon, Plum Flower, weapons and other stuff is also in there. The weapons are a thousand years older than Wing Chun, and a lot of the animal styles were scooped up by whole familes (Jow, Chow, Hung), and later on instead of being called "Snake Style", Snake became just one of 5 animal motifs (Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, and Crane). No longer a style, a way of categorizing a technique (e.g. Jow Ga Crane technique). But not just with animals, the Wu Xing elements, yin/yang modes too (and a lot of it is tied back to traditional Chinese folk medicine, accupunture, etc).

If you really want to go deep, you could say Wing Chun is the unofficial "6th Southern Family". If I said "Wing Chun Ga" to a Cantonese person they'd know exactly what I meant by that.

Ok, so you're saying all WC teachers are actively lying. That's a bold claim.

Let's be honest, the origin myth of Wing Chun is a lie too, and tall tale telling is a fundamental part of Chinese martial arts.

We could talk all day about Ng Mui and not get anywhere. If you have a chance to read Judkins' book, we'd have a LOT more to talk about.

You've kind of circled back on my original point though - similar lines of knowledge from different sources tend to converge on things that are actually true. Per what you've said here, other arts can arrive at the same conclusion of how to develop certain things in an upright stance. This doesn't mean all of those arts are the direct ancestor of something that pulls from that common truth.

The full formal name of the Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma (二字羊馬步) is found in practically all styles that claim Shaolin heritage (and you have to concede, few arts flex their Shaolin rep more than Wing Chun, and it's often a little cringey).

And then you can go down the list of technique names. If the name in hanzi is the same, that's not the same thing as two English speaking people comparing "Crane vs. Crane". 箭搥 is 箭搥 in every CMA style.

There is Crane technique here below. It's beauitful (美人照鏡), but I guarantee you few will find this video if they go looking for kung fu. 美人照鏡 is very common to Wing Chun and a lot of its peers, and even Northern styles. It's all borrowed from somewhere else. That's the way of all things.

 

[Callen]

I guess what I mean for leg drills would be like it another forum here they talk about Ip Man having a special leg drill where they used a stick of some sorts to strengthen the leg. I've also seen other drill outside of Wing Chun using the "kicking shield" target and have a 3 man rotating drill. Stuff like that. I just wasn't sure if there was any Wing Chun firect leg drills.


Oh yeah I definitely agree. While I do train and train in school I usually use my down time to study what I can on the Internet or through books just as an extra way of training haha. Yeah i get what your saying its been some time since i was able to stop by the Wing Chun School near me but i do agee nothing like just jumping in and training.

It can be difficult to know what to train outside of class as well, so I understand the challenges of finding drills that relate to where you are in terms of your progress in the system and the curriculum that your school teaches. A lack of practical context can do more harm than good, so it's also smart to be cautious about training certain concepts before you're ready to understand them.

Yeah thats always been my belief I looked into the Wing Chun kicking just to see how I could make it more effective and it seems Wing Chun had its own method of kicking rather than a traditional shaolin type or other style. I'll have to take a closer look at Chum Kiu. I know all of the stuff looks simple but there's alot more to it. I'll check out Luk Dim Boon Gwan and I appreciate the advise its always nice to be able to talk anything martial arts with other knowledgeable people .

I appreciate your positive attitude (mou dak 武德). Gong fu is truly about putting in hard work over time. The more you invest into it, the more you will get out of it.

If we were in person, I would just show you how chum kiu (沉橋) and the luk dim boon gwan (六點半棍) forms relate to whole body unity (unit power), footwork and mobility. The mechanics set the pace for understanding where unit power comes from. It requires exploring how the feet, waist and elbow work together. Once you get it, everything changes. However, you need solid basics and foundation development to properly apply footwork to actions. That's why the order of learning things is paramount.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the luk dim boon gwan (六點半棍) forms relate to whole body unity (unit power), footwork and mobility. The mechanics set the pace for understanding where unit power comes from.

A: Does WC have ...?
B: You can find those in WC knife form and also in WC stick form.

Why someone has to develop unit power, footwork, mobility until weapon training? Should those foudation be developed during the open hand training already?

 

[hunschuld]

A: Does WC have ...?
B: You can find those in WC knife form and also in WC stick form.

Why someone has to develop unit power, footwork, mobility until weapon training? Should those foudation be developed during the open hand training already?

Yes those things are developed before weapons training. The reason weaopns training comes last is that you are supposed to first develop these basic attributes before you can use the weapons effectively.