Oh really?

[DWeidman]

Sorry for the vague thread title...

I am pretty plugged in to the BJK - and was unaware that it was against Soke's wishes to train with SKH.

Is this true? - and if so - can you point to your source.

As a BJK-er, I thought the "official" stance was Steve is doing his own thing - so not part of the BJK. However, that doesn't preclude anyone in the BJK not training with him or his group. Just as there isn't a ban on training with ANYONE in another art (with ONLY two exceptions that are well known - GBK and JNK).

-Daniel

 

[Carol]

My understanding is that Mr. Hayes is doing his own thing with an art called Toshindo. The schools associated with it are also called "Quest Centers" or something to that effect.

However the discussion came up surrounding a Bujinkan shidoshi training under Mr. Hayes.


"Our Chief Instructor, Mr. Mark Davis, is a shidoshi in the Bujinkan organization and continues to train intensively via frequent trips to Japan to study with the Grandmaster, Dr. Hatsumi, and several other extraordinarily talented Bujinkan instructors. Stateside, Mr. Davis continues to train with Mr. Stephen K. Hayes, one of the world's foremost authorities on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and Ninjutsu.

http://www.boston-ninpo.com/About.htm

"Toshindo" or "Quest" do not appear anywhere on the www.boston-ninpo.com website. In fact, the shidoshi does not make public recognition of the fact that Mr. Hayes is doing his own thing. By sayin he is "one of the worlds foremost authorities on BBT..." there is not even a hint that Mr. Hayes is not a part of the Bujinkan anymore and now does his own thing.

While I'm not in the Bujinkan, I can see where that can be problematic. But perhaps someone in the Bujinkan can describe this better.

 

[Bumblebee]

I know it's not the most reliable source, but under Stephen K. Hayes' Wikipedia article it says that Soke Hatsumi is still signing certificates for Hayes' students. I remember reading it either there or Black Belt Magazine, but pretty sure it's on Wikipedia.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I find it very hard to believe that Hatsumi would want anyone within the Bujinkan to train with Hayes.

I would rather train with Hayes than with many Bujinkan instructors, but I'm not going to.

 

[Mr. E]

Just as there isn't a ban on training with ANYONE in another art (with ONLY two exceptions that are well known - GBK and JNK).

Can you link me to the official announcement and rule that says you can't train with GBK and JNK?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This was posted by Johji Ohashi quite awhile ago on his bulletin board.

Although the latest news from the Hombu seems to have surprised many people, the facts involved are very simple.
Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member. His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.
(Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)
I hope this clarifies the issue. Please stop making a fuss on the Internet. There is no need for discussion on this matter, but you can contact Soke if you are REALLY concerned.
(I'll delete this comment in a few days because it has almost nothing to do with the two classes I'm in charge of. -- May 22nd.)


While it is no longer there you find it also here on Phil Legare's board. Knowing Phil and how close he is with Soke I would be stunned that both Johji Ohashi the Hombu Administrator and Phil had somehow gotten it wrong. While it does not say banned or do not train the message is pretty clear.

Here is the link to Phil's board carefully scroll down to the third post from the last and you see it repeated there: http://shinkentaijutsu.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=256&highlight=stephen+hayes

Dan this is pretty old news and I am sure you have seen this before so I wonder why you would bring it up again? Stephen Hayes has gone his own way and that is fine. We should all let him train and teach and enjoy what he is doing rather than bickering over it.

Personally I only wish Stephen Hayes the best. I hope that To Shin Do is really successful and that he enjoys his training!

 

[Carol]

. We should all let him train and teach and enjoy what he is doing rather than bickering over it.

Personally I only wish Stephen Hayes the best. I hope that To Shin Do is really successful and that he enjoys his training!

The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.

The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.

The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.

Well I think what I posted above sheds light on Mr. Hayes standing within the Bujinkan. Having said that I think it also sheds light on Boston in a different way.

Either way I still wish Mr. Hayes and Mr. Davis the best and hope that they have good training and enjoy what they are doing.

 

[Carol]

Either way I still wish Mr. Hayes and Mr. Davis the best and hope that they have good training and enjoy what they are doing.

Absolutely. :asian:

 

[Mr. E]

The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.

The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.

I think that maybe it is about the wishes of the Soke of the Bujinkan.

I have trained with Asian masters from Indonesia, Japan and China. One thing I have learned is that a whisper from them about their wishes for the student should be as loud as a storm. If someone says that they do not wish their students to train with ex-students of theirs, then that is not something you should do even if it is not in the formal rules.

I know people studying in the Bujinkan. I am aware that the most public statements about training with the Genbukan and such are comments from Mr Hatsumi about training with "former students." I think it is fairly clear that Mr Hayes falls into the catagory of a former student. So I think that hosting a seminar by him would be the same as hosting a Genbukan seminar.

And I think that if there is even a small chance that this is the case, that anyone who really cares about Mr Hatsumi and being a good student of his would make very, very certain before they acted in a way that could be contrary to his wishes. I would ask around with those closest to the source before acting.

Take a look at the second line of this post. You may think that this person may not have all the facts, you may think he is speaking out of jealousy or maybe you think that it is just a rumor. But when someone as close to the source says something like this, it might be best to act with caution and check for yourself instead of shrugging your shoulders and just doing as you wish.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

And this issue is one of the contributing factors to my departure from the Boston dojo. I wanted to train in Bujinkan budo taijutsu, and I didn't feel I was doing so. The friends of mine who trained in other dojo in other states had far different experiences than I did, and had never heard of the godai when I mentioned it. I remember BMAC teaching ichimonji no kamae the way Haye's does it, with the guard hand a shuto at the bottom of the deltoid instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow. Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder. Hayes just does it that way, and so does Mark Davis. I felt pretty embarrassed training with friends of mine and hearing, "....that's not ichimonji". I just don't feel Mark Davis is running a Bujinkan dojo and anyone looking to learn the art should look elsewhere.

 

[Mr. E]

I remember BMAC teaching ichimonji no kamae the way Haye's does it, with the guard hand a shuto at the bottom of the deltoid instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow. Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder.

Isn't that seigan no kamae from the Koto ryu?

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

Basically yes, it was seigan. But they called it ichimonji, and you never saw seigan until way later. I never saw seigan. Just fake ichimonji.

 

[LuzRD]

why do we have multiple "Devil Hanzo"'s??
EDIT~ dont want it to seem like im picking on anyone, just curious.

 

[Carol]

why do we have multiple "Devil Hanzo"'s??

Don't know but someone has reported that to the mod team already. The board admins are looking in to it.

 

[rutherford]

The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.

We had one thread closed. Why did you bringing the issue into a second discussion?

Can we have this thread moved to The Great Debate at least?

 

[Mr. E]

We had one thread closed. Why did you bringing the issue into a second discussion?

Can we have this thread moved to The Great Debate at least?

It might just go that way.

But if we remember that this thread is not about any specific dojo or way of doing things we may be alright. The question on the table is about whether it is ok for Bujinkan members to train with or hold seminars for Stephen Hayes. It is not about a dojo in Boston or any of the members here.

I have given the sources that I have found here on martialtalk. I have friends in the Bujinkan that say the same exact same thing as what has been said here. If someone can give an opposite view and do so in a calm, constructive manner then there may still be hope for this thread.

And just to remind people, I know that Mr Hatsumi has stated that he does not want people who follow him to learn from people who are ex-students of his. There seems to be no specific comments in public about the Jinenkan or Genbukan. But people seem to understand that holding a seminar for the head of the Jinenkan would go against Mr Hatsumi's wishes. It seems clear that Mr Hayes is an ex student as well. So it would seem that the same situation applies. And I would think people would want to err on the side of caution in any case if they really cared about what their soke thought.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The friends of mine who trained in other dojo in other states had far different experiences than I did,

Nothing unique about that.

instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow.

Hand at the crook of the elbow, thumbs pointing up and lead hand towards the opposite shoulder is Gyokko ryu. Seems like the same problem we've been having since the 80's - ryuha confusion. Nothing strange about that. Heck, I'm not surprised if a lot of people at one time or another believed that kihon happo came from Togakure ryu.

Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder.

Kinda doubt that. And how would you know if it was true?

 

[DWeidman]

Sorry for the vague thread title...

I am pretty plugged in to the BJK - and was unaware that it was against Soke's wishes to train with SKH.

Is this true? - and if so - can you point to your source.

As a BJK-er, I thought the "official" stance was Steve is doing his own thing - so not part of the BJK. However, that doesn't preclude anyone in the BJK not training with him or his group. Just as there isn't a ban on training with ANYONE in another art (with ONLY two exceptions that are well known - GBK and JNK).

-Daniel

Apparently I am not good at writing English. I will try again.

Brian. I am not questioning if SKH is doing his own thing. I thought it was clear in my OP where I said, " As a BJK-er, I thought the "official" stance was Steve is doing his own thing - so not part of the BJK."

So.... Let me ask again.

I, as a BJK member, can train in TKD if I want. Or Krav Maga. Or anything **EXCEPT** GBK or JNK.

So, is there any PROBLEM with training with Steve? Would anyone be in TROUBLE if they did?

I have already said I don't think there is a problem training with Steve... But people are carrying on as if I am wrong.

I am curious as to whether this is something FROM Soke, or something they PERSONALLY feel (for whatever reasons).

This has NOTHING to do with Mark Davis. It was just inspired by the conversation about his dojo.

Sorry for all the ALL CAPS words. I just want to be CLEAR.

-Daniel

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

Kinda doubt that. And how would you know if it was true?

Why would you doubt that? If he said ichimonji no kamae was done the EXACT same way seigan no kamae was, then it's NOT ichimonji no kamae! I know for a fact he never said that, because it's incorrect, and clearly as soke he knows the difference between ichimonji and seigan.

Pick up a Hayes book and look at his ichimonji. It's almost identical to seigan. If you were told that was ichimonji, then what's seigan? I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.