Oh Lord, where to start with Aikido?

[Gerry Seymour]

His shoulder has to be lower than yours for that to work. So the rubbing the tricept is pretty meh..

I mean it is irritating but not really devastating.


ignore the rubbish about BJJ being the answer to everything. just a convenient video of police fighting on arm bars.

That was his point, I think. There are ways to be nice with it and ways that aren't as nice. The nice ways create discomfort to help get the person into a position for control. The less-nice ones often focus on taking the arm out of the fight.

 

[drop bear]

That was his point, I think. There are ways to be nice with it and ways that aren't as nice. The nice ways create discomfort to help get the person into a position for control. The less-nice ones often focus on taking the arm out of the fight.

No he was trying to pressure point the arm because he was hitting the arm bar wrong.

Arms mostly dont go out of fights. Unless you have them trapped right. If you watched the video. You will see police hanging on arms for dear life. They are not using momentum based breaks.

There are ways to do it so the arm doesn't slip out because they are some sweaty junkie. and ways that are not so secure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No he was trying to pressure point the arm because he was hitting the arm bar wrong.

Arms mostly dont go out of fights. Unless you have them trapped right. If you watched the video. You will see police hanging on arms for dear life. They are not using momentum based breaks.

There are ways to do it so the arm doesn't slip out because they are some sweaty junkie. and ways that are not so secure.

I meant Juany, not the video.

And agreed on the application. Often, folks struggle with Arm Bars because they ignore the basic principle you pointed out: the shoulder must be lower than the wrist, or you don't have control.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[drop bear]

I meant Juany, not the video.

And agreed on the application. Often, folks struggle with Arm Bars because they ignore the basic principle you pointed out: the shoulder must be lower than the wrist, or you don't have control.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Yeah but he goes wierd on this idea. Hurting the guy doesn't allways stop the threat.

At some point you want to shut down their ability to attack. That is not allways the most violent response. It could be a positional response.

 

[Juany118]

In NGA, we have a complicated name for that: "Arm Bar."

Lol, yeah but my old teacher would occasionally use a Japanese term, I just can't remember it since its been some 20 years.

 

[Juany118]

I meant Juany, not the video.

And agreed on the application. Often, folks struggle with Arm Bars because they ignore the basic principle you pointed out: the shoulder must be lower than the wrist, or you don't have control.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Exactly. Usually we use those maneuvers when we are being nice because at academy's they only show the nice way. They also usually only teach the first armband shown in the video, which you can muscle against, hence why you will usually see officers "hanging on for dear life" while they try to overcome force with force. However recently combative systems have started training what the video shows. That works btw not only because of the pressure on the tendon but because the human brain likes dealing with "straight" or "round", not both at the same time. When you push down and rotate the arm at the same time it causes some confusion and also assists in the take down.

That all said some officers like me pay their own dime. I studied Aikido and still practice it, Kali also has a fair amount of take downs. I also work with 2 guys who are BJJ guys and one who is a black belt in Ryushinkan. So when we do stuff, if we have to, we have the training and experience to use momentum based maneuvers. I only had one occassion where I could justify breaking a shoulder though, usually when that kinda thing is justifiable we can use not only a taser but a baton and that was before we had tasers (can't even remember if they were common place) and our batons were not expandable, they were the old PR-24s and I didn't have the opportunity to get it out of the car before stuff went pear shaped. Today I would just use the expandable baton or taser and be done with it. Times change over 18+ years.

PS--- @drop bear is correct, hurting someone doesn't always stop the threat, but under the circumstances, if you apply that technique right and it breaks/dislocates something while you take them down, it puts you in a more dominant position to transition to other control techniques. Your use of force doesn't stop until the threat stops.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lol, yeah but my old teacher would occasionally use a Japanese term, I just can't remember it since its been some 20 years.

Nikkyo, I think. I've been in Ueshiba-lineage schools where they use the Japanese. The founder of NGA was a translator in Japan in the 40's (armed forces), and his instructor had him teach the Japanese students English names for the techniques. So, we've always just used the English names.

 

[Jenna]

No matter how good I am, being gentle to someone trying to hurt me with a knife will never be an acceptable choice for me. That is an extreme, but it makes the point clearer. They put me in a position where hurting them is the most likely way to stop their attack with the least injury to me.

I understand what you are saying thank you and but I would not see it like this.. I think gentle is the only way in Aikido.. I am always going to be softer than a bladed weapon, how hard can I be against tempered steel anyway? The gentle is woven in the technique.. there is pain yes and but you are just neutral when it is complete the pain is in his resisting what you have applied.. Me it is not my intention to apply pain.. is my intention to let him walk away so he can save face.. For me is opposite of tapout where I might bend him so much to the point of breaking either tapout or pass out.. no.. if the technique work then I am just standing neutral.. talk to him if he want.. we can be calm.. if he move at me again then he induce his own pain in the lock that he is in, yes?

I do not know.. is not my experience that hurting him make him stop.. is my experience reason with him make him stop.. though maybe I am not in same situation you are in. In my situation people get angry that is what make them lash out at us at me at others.. Hurting do not diminish that anger.. just make it worse.. they call police here a lot.. some police the best ones.. they are calm.. they are gentle! Speak calm, act calm.. that is best way nobody get hurt everybody walk, save face.. Other police not so much.. they come in ready to fight.. is wrong mindset, right?? Fighting be about winning.. And you disadvantage your self from start if there is need to win, yes?? Police who come in like this with this mindset almost like all of these people are bad people.. they are like stormtroopers yes they win by force and but there is lot of trouble with violence.. Aikido technique successfully applied for me permit a moment just enough so like.. ok stop! everybody be calm.. It is like I give you a moment to reassess.. You understand me?? Not sure I am too clear on this.. Anyway.. I do not know maybe is just I am not in your situations like knives and things.. Just my experience is all x

 

[Juany118]

I understand what you are saying thank you and but I would not see it like this.. I think gentle is the only way in Aikido.. I am always going to be softer than a bladed weapon, how hard can I be against tempered steel anyway? The gentle is woven in the technique.. there is pain yes and but you are just neutral when it is complete the pain is in his resisting what you have applied.. Me it is not my intention to apply pain.. is my intention to let him walk away so he can save face.. For me is opposite of tapout where I might bend him so much to the point of breaking either tapout or pass out.. no.. if the technique work then I am just standing neutral.. talk to him if he want.. we can be calm.. if he move at me again then he induce his own pain in the lock that he is in, yes?

I do not know.. is not my experience that hurting him make him stop.. is my experience reason with him make him stop.. though maybe I am not in same situation you are in. In my situation people get angry that is what make them lash out at us at me at others.. Hurting do not diminish that anger.. just make it worse.. they call police here a lot.. some police the best ones.. they are calm.. they are gentle! Speak calm, act calm.. that is best way nobody get hurt everybody walk, save face.. Other police not so much.. they come in ready to fight.. is wrong mindset, right?? Fighting be about winning.. And you disadvantage your self from start if there is need to win, yes?? Police who come in like this with this mindset almost like all of these people are bad people.. they are like stormtroopers yes they win by force and but there is lot of trouble with violence.. Aikido technique successfully applied for me permit a moment just enough so like.. ok stop! everybody be calm.. It is like I give you a moment to reassess.. You understand me?? Not sure I am too clear on this.. Anyway.. I do not know maybe is just I am not in your situations like knives and things.. Just my experience is all x

The only thing I would say is "speak calm, act calm" certainly can work if the person has not yet decided to attack you. If someone has decided they are going to make a victim of you and has initiated action allowing him to save face may not be a concern for them at this point. They may be using that force as a tool to commit another crime against your person (robbery, rape etc). They maybe under the influence of a substance making them incapable of sound reasoning.

If there is any doubt as to the state of mind of the assailant I think assuming you can talk them down is asking for trouble.

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[Jenna]

The only thing I would say is "speak calm, act calm" certainly can work if the person has not yet decided to attack you. If someone has decided they are going to make a victim of you and has initiated action allowing him to save face may not be a concern for them at this point. They may be using that force as a tool to commit another crime against your person (robbery, rape etc). They maybe under the influence of a substance making them incapable of sound reasoning.

If there is any doubt as to the state of mind of the assailant I think assuming you can talk them down is asking for trouble.

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Yes I understand what you say and thank you for your courteous reply Your actions are independent of the varying state of mind of others tho yes?? Like me, I attempt to apply technique exactly the same. He do not have to be reasonable to reason. He only have to understand the consequence of his lack of reason is the pain he inflict upon his self in so doing. Maybe though you have to deal with other people who are addled by drugs or substance ingestion or mental health issues?? I do not have this.. is not my situation.. I am not very well prepared for hypotheticals.. so I cannot comment on every situation because I have not been in every situation. I deal this way with people here. There are mental health issues yes, that is what I work with here. I have not had violence from that. I have had violence from anger. I do not think they wish to make a victim of me though is not pertinent their reasons?? Here they are angry, they often have no accommodation or are refused entry here that is why they are angry.. To me an attack is an attack do not matter for what the reason is behind it, me being violent in response exacerbates it. I have seen it! You have not found this??

You can explain this for me?? like if, in order to keep your safety, your violence is necessarily greater than their violence then you create your own victims like this right??

Me I do not choose me as victim or them as victim.. is not a choice like that.. I like everybody walk away..

 

[Juany118]

Yes I understand what you say and thank you for your courteous reply Your actions are independent of the varying state of mind of others tho yes?? Like me, I attempt to apply technique exactly the same. He do not have to be reasonable to reason. He only have to understand the consequence of his lack of reason is the pain he inflict upon his self in so doing. Maybe though you have to deal with other people who are addled by drugs or substance ingestion or mental health issues?? I do not have this.. is not my situation.. I am not very well prepared for hypotheticals.. so I cannot comment on every situation because I have not been in every situation. I deal this way with people here. There are mental health issues yes, that is what I work with here. I have not had violence from that. I have had violence from anger. I do not think they wish to make a victim of me though is not pertinent their reasons?? Here they are angry, they often have no accommodation or are refused entry here that is why they are angry.. To me an attack is an attack do not matter for what the reason is behind it, me being violent in response exacerbates it. I have seen it! You have not found this??

You can explain this for me?? like if, in order to keep your safety, your violence is necessarily greater than their violence then you create your own victims like this right??

Me I do not choose me as victim or them as victim.. is not a choice like that.. I like everybody walk away..

Verbal de-escalation or walking away (if possible) is preferred but there is a problem. Now the idea of reasoning with someone can also work if violence is initiated by say the drunk who wants to fight over an imagined slight but there are circumstances where it will not.

First: There are people who actually chose you to be a victim. The violence is simply a tool to achieve that other goal. I am not speaking here of the drunk who feels like you somehow insulted them. I am talking about the person who wants to rob you, molest you, what have you. The fact they are using violence as a tool usually means they are accustomed to not only using it on others but having it inflicted upon themselves. They can often also be under the influence of controlled substances which can diminish pain response. When they move to violence there is not reasoning with them they only have one of two things in mind. 1. They still want to accomplish the initial goal and will try to free themselves to continue the attack. 2. If you have total control they will still fight to try and free themselves to flee in order to avoid arrest. Regardless of what you say to them or how you say it they will not simply stop and walk away. Once they initiated their violence their thoughts become very binary.

Second, and this is more common in my occupation, you may run into someone one some sort of substance, PCP, K2, Bath salts etc, that is essentially temporarily psychotic due to a chemical substance that they are abusing. Sometimes these people will not even feel the pain and they are literally incapable of reason, de-escalation is not an option because they often can't even speak coherently let alone think coherently.

The long and the short of it is that the motive is important because the motive will directly inform how they react to your action. The robbery suspect will either seek to continue their robbery attempt or flee before police arrive. The person who is literally out of their mind due to an illicit substance will not be thinking at all, they will just be pure action. The drunk reacting to an imagined slight will likely be open to a way out/saving face if not too intoxicated.

The difference between my using force and others, and it's maybe why I have learned the above, is that if "verbal judo" fails I often don't have the option to walk away so am often forced to confront violence. The motive of the violence has a very strong influence on how the scenario plays out. This isn't to say that you just pound them into a bloody mess or break them, just that you need to expect, if your art is one based on control, that you will have to maintain control with a person who will continue to resist until someone shows up with hand cuff.


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[drop bear]

The only thing I would say is "speak calm, act calm" certainly can work if the person has not yet decided to attack you. If someone has decided they are going to make a victim of you and has initiated action allowing him to save face may not be a concern for them at this point. They may be using that force as a tool to commit another crime against your person (robbery, rape etc). They maybe under the influence of a substance making them incapable of sound reasoning.

If there is any doubt as to the state of mind of the assailant I think assuming you can talk them down is asking for trouble.

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Can't hurt.

I have been mangaling guys and was still able to reason with them. Depends how good you are at both.

And considering untrained tradies can do it. It is probably not that big an ask for proffesionals to do it.

 

[Juany118]

Can't hurt.

I have been mangaling guys and was still able to reason with them. Depends how good you are at both.

And considering untrained tradies can do it. It is probably not that big an ask for proffesionals to do it.

I already said "it can't hurt" but you need to be prepared for the continued resistance. If you expect the "talking down" to work and it doesn't, things can go sideways very quickly.

 

[KangTsai]

I think I get it. Example for a technique that I learned in Aikido and a similar form exists in other arts. Basically it amounts to a standing cutting arm bar but I am currently brain frying on the Aikido technique name.

Now I can do it like the video shows, which will do limited injury or I can do it in such a way that I hyperextend the wrist and potentially dislocate the shoulder, if I have a wrist lock applied with my "outside" hand and simultaneously yank hard while executing the take down as seen in the video, or you could also hyperextend the elbow by not rakeing along the tendon as in the video by by apply a good solid strike to it.

Now I would only do the later if there was a weapon involved or if the person was being actively aggressive towards me or another (vs trying to escape) and made it clear that aggression was likely to continue but you can go from protecting the opponents safety to injuring them with just a couple simple changes.



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How would that technique do if it was executed with a kimura grip on the arm?

 

[Juany118]

How would that technique do if it was executed with a kimura grip on the arm?

You could do a standing kimura grip takedown I am sure, but I think it would be different enough to be considered it's own techique with the same result.

One of the reasons for a technique like the one shown in the video is so that you give yourself space for weapon retention. I may not be thinking clearly due to exhaustion (just finished a 14 hour shift on 4 hours of sleep) but every execution of a kimura grip I am picturing has the suspect now with their free arm in closer proximity to my body such as here

and here

When I picture myself dropping them I picture that orientation not changing much and instead of being able to remain more "vertical" I may find myself more prone with him, which while still a dominant position is something I try to avoid, not only for retention purposes but it is awkward, and painful, to be bouncing around on the ground with all the crap around your waist plus if I have to disengage for whatever reason its more awkward. With the weapons that would be on the duty belt that just makes me twitchy for a LE application. Not "forbidden" but I would likely only go there if I absolutely had to (if that makes sense.)

 

[KangTsai]

You could do a standing kimura grip takedown I am sure, but I think it would be different enough to be considered it's own techique with the same result.

One of the reasons for a technique like the one shown in the video is so that you give yourself space for weapon retention. I may not be thinking clearly due to exhaustion (just finished a 14 hour shift on 4 hours of sleep) but every execution of a kimura grip I am picturing has the suspect now with their free arm in closer proximity to my body such as here

and here

When I picture myself dropping them I picture that orientation not changing much. With the weapons that would be on the duty belt that just makes me twitchy for a LE application. Not "forbidden" but I would likely only go there if I absolutely had to (if that makes sense.)

No I meant that straight-arm takedown except the arm is held in place with a kimura grip. That's a standing jointlock, and could still be viable for retention if it was used for a throw or trip from that position.

 

[Juany118]

No I meant that straight-arm takedown except the arm is held in place with a kimura grip. That's a standing jointlock, and could still be viable for retention if it was used for a throw or trip from that position.

Oh I see what you are saying now. I think it could work, here is my only question. Again a little tired, but for an application as seen in the video, I think if you got the guy down you would run the risk of being "married" to him until another officer arrived because it could (note I said could I might experiment with it to confirm or deny) be a bit more awkward to transition to one of your hands going for cuffs, a taser what have you.

Also I edited my post while you were responding. If you used that grip its puts you a bit more prone than than I prefer with all the gear on because to maintain the grip properly you have to go down with him to a greater extent. I could definitely see it being something I would find viable though if say another officer was already present so transitioning to tools wasn't an issue and the fact that some of the risks of being more prone are mitigated as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand what you are saying thank you and but I would not see it like this.. I think gentle is the only way in Aikido.. I am always going to be softer than a bladed weapon, how hard can I be against tempered steel anyway? The gentle is woven in the technique.. there is pain yes and but you are just neutral when it is complete the pain is in his resisting what you have applied.. Me it is not my intention to apply pain.. is my intention to let him walk away so he can save face.. For me is opposite of tapout where I might bend him so much to the point of breaking either tapout or pass out.. no.. if the technique work then I am just standing neutral.. talk to him if he want.. we can be calm.. if he move at me again then he induce his own pain in the lock that he is in, yes?

I do not know.. is not my experience that hurting him make him stop.. is my experience reason with him make him stop.. though maybe I am not in same situation you are in. In my situation people get angry that is what make them lash out at us at me at others.. Hurting do not diminish that anger.. just make it worse.. they call police here a lot.. some police the best ones.. they are calm.. they are gentle! Speak calm, act calm.. that is best way nobody get hurt everybody walk, save face.. Other police not so much.. they come in ready to fight.. is wrong mindset, right?? Fighting be about winning.. And you disadvantage your self from start if there is need to win, yes?? Police who come in like this with this mindset almost like all of these people are bad people.. they are like stormtroopers yes they win by force and but there is lot of trouble with violence.. Aikido technique successfully applied for me permit a moment just enough so like.. ok stop! everybody be calm.. It is like I give you a moment to reassess.. You understand me?? Not sure I am too clear on this.. Anyway.. I do not know maybe is just I am not in your situations like knives and things.. Just my experience is all x

Reason won't stop someone who is angry. That part of their brain is literally not engaged (limbic system overrides the executive center). And I won't stop to talk to someone who has a kinfe and is using it to try to hurt me. If I get a chance to break the arm holding the knife, I will break it. In NGA (remember, not a derivative from Ueshiba, but a cousin art), "aiki" is not a concept of philosophical gentleness, just one of physical blending and using the momentum of the attack.

Now, if my initial response puts them on the ground and under my control, the game has changed. Once I have control, I can afford to become gentle. If I manage that without doing harm to them, I prefer that, but I don't actively change my approach during the attack to avoid their injury.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I understand what you say and thank you for your courteous reply Your actions are independent of the varying state of mind of others tho yes??

Actually, no. If their state of mind is calm, they don't attack, so I have no need to react to that attack. If they are angry or desperate enough to attack, effective defense should take their likely responses into account. The attack is all about their state of mind, so the defense should be, as well - otherwise, you risk responding to something that's not present. Aiki is all about responding to what is presented.

 

[Jenna]

Verbal de-escalation or walking away (if possible) is preferred but there is a problem. Now the idea of reasoning with someone can also work if violence is initiated by say the drunk who wants to fight over an imagined slight but there are circumstances where it will not.

First: There are people who actually chose you to be a victim. The violence is simply a tool to achieve that other goal. I am not speaking here of the drunk who feels like you somehow insulted them. I am talking about the person who wants to rob you, molest you, what have you. The fact they are using violence as a tool usually means they are accustomed to not only using it on others but having it inflicted upon themselves. They can often also be under the influence of controlled substances which can diminish pain response. When they move to violence there is not reasoning with them they only have one of two things in mind. 1. They still want to accomplish the initial goal and will try to free themselves to continue the attack. 2. If you have total control they will still fight to try and free themselves to flee in order to avoid arrest. Regardless of what you say to them or how you say it they will not simply stop and walk away. Once they initiated their violence their thoughts become very binary.

Second, and this is more common in my occupation, you may run into someone one some sort of substance, PCP, K2, Bath salts etc, that is essentially temporarily psychotic due to a chemical substance that they are abusing. Sometimes these people will not even feel the pain and they are literally incapable of reason, de-escalation is not an option because they often can't even speak coherently let alone think coherently.

The long and the short of it is that the motive is important because the motive will directly inform how they react to your action. The robbery suspect will either seek to continue their robbery attempt or flee before police arrive. The person who is literally out of their mind due to an illicit substance will not be thinking at all, they will just be pure action. The drunk reacting to an imagined slight will likely be open to a way out/saving face if not too intoxicated.

The difference between my using force and others, and it's maybe why I have learned the above, is that if "verbal judo" fails I often don't have the option to walk away so am often forced to confront violence. The motive of the violence has a very strong influence on how the scenario plays out. This isn't to say that you just pound them into a bloody mess or break them, just that you need to expect, if your art is one based on control, that you will have to maintain control with a person who will continue to resist until someone shows up with hand cuff.


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First, thank you for your thoughts, I am grateful for your conversation And yes verbal deescalation is preference of course you are correct I agree, and largely I do not disagree with your sentiment nor your statements. All I would do is offer my experience or opinion as alternative and not gospel.
Like if someone is not in good position to respond to verbal reasoning, and there are two reason that come to mind for me here and those are alcohol and anger (there are plenty other) then for all the things I do not know, I do know one thing.. that violence to them do not make the job of deescalation any easier at all.. it make it some times impossible! yes?? Then it become a spiral of not deescalation and but ESCALATION until the greater force win.. I do not like that.. I do not see winning only victim..

Also , I think if someone want to rob me they want items that are of value.. if they want to molest me they seek to satisfy their sexual predilections.. yes this may include a form of domination however that is a specific diagnosis which is dominance and not victimhood per se.. in any case I am willing to accept that there can be instance in which an idividual may actually have as a primary goal the desire to induce victimhood in me..ok I set argument aside for a sec.. it is just that it do not matter to me what is their motivation.. I cannot know this and nor can you until you are applying your techniques yes and by which stage you are already in the middle of it, yes? I mean only that I am uncertain in any preparation what benefit arise from being clairvoyant over their intent?? Maybe I have misunderstood..

However -and again I think our exerience differ- I do not deal with what it seem you deal with so I cannot speak to that.. In my experience it is more likely that someone might like you say continue to their "goal" if that is what it actually is, if I am aggressive towards them. For me I have found it easier to pacify someone who have come in a state of fury or violence by immobilisation.. In Aikido as I utilise it, this can be done neutrally or actively or in tandem depending upon the persons decisions after immobilisation.. we can talk.. I have done this.. pain is not requisite.. we can just stop here and take a moment, some time they need moved around.. some time their resisting needs reapplication or application of other technique.. for me it work! Drunk yes.. same thing.. after a moment or after they struggle they have sufficient reasoning to either know they are not going to do nothing or I have had people lapse into that stupor they do. If police need to come then that is fine.. nobody be hurt.. I am not prepared to accept any inevitability in what you say is binary thoughts.. Is very easy to induce this way of thinking in a person for sure by responding to their violence with more and greater of your own.. this will def do it!

So yes you say you deal with people on substances.. yes I understand this thank you for explaining.. you have differing set of circumstances I do not know nothing about.. I am not spokesperson for nothing and nobody.. is just opinion and experience of Aikido as I do it

Still disagree about motive of a person.. I do not need to know this.. it do not help me to know it.. Is for court to ascertain that.. My mindset is the same.. I do not wish for anyone to be hurt me or them. That is incorrect mindset to possess you would say???