Obama Promises to Dismantle Our Armed Forces(?)

[Andy Moynihan]

Putin is indeed saber rattling over the whole recent missile business, but he's been doing it since long before.

He's a former "higher up" in either KGB or GRU, and it is beginning to show itself.

As much as I hope I am wrong, and it pains me to say it, after all these years, the Cold War may yet be turning hot.............

 

[Sukerkin]

I fear that too, Andy. It seems to have sprung from nowhere because the media has had it's eye focussed elsewhere.

That said, the Russian Bear was always far more toothless than we dreamt in our Cold War nightmares so perhaps this sabre being rattled is equally blunt and rusty?

 

[Flying Crane]

yes, 3000+ is alot of casualties. 3000+ casualties over 4 YEARS is the least bloody war in history

well, I will point out that the number of US deaths is by no means the true tally of casualties. A big part of the reason the US deaths are low compared to prior wars that the US has engaged in, is due to advancements in trauma and battlefield medicine. In short, we've learned how to patch them back together faster and better than before. Many more people in this conflict have survived wounds that would have simply killed them even a decade earlier.

I don't have any stats to point to at the moment, but I do know that many tens of thousands of US service personnel have been wounded in the present Iraq situation. Many of them have injuries that they will never completely heal from and will be with them for the rest of their lives, many of them horrific.

The other side has certainly proven their ability to hit our own people, often with improvised munitions and bare-bones training and equipment. All the vast sums of money that has gone into our military, in terms of training and equipment, has not stopped that.

 

[Sukerkin]

FC makes a good point there. In part it comes down to what I have often said in such debates over the past years - the military's purpose is to break stuff and take and hold ground.

What it's purpose is not is to be policemen with rifles. We learned that in Ireland. I know that it had the outcome that British army personel have institutional experience in urban warfare and peacekeeping but I also know the 'damage' that was done to men who are friends of mine by their tours during the Troubles.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I fear that too, Andy. It seems to have sprung from nowhere because the media has had it's eye focussed elsewhere.

That said, the Russian Bear was always far more toothless than we dreamt in our Cold War nightmares so perhaps this sabre being rattled is equally blunt and rusty?

I would like to hope so.

See I hate making predictions about things involving the negative side of human nature because my friends have called to my attention a particularly frustrating aspect of my so doing.

It would appear that I've always ended up having been right.

Back in 1998 when we first started getting any major news coverage of Bin Laden, ands most people shrugged it off I was the guy stood up and said "We'll be hearin' from that guy again".

Sure enough...

And then after we got into our current "away match", when some of my coworkers were on one side of the fence that was all up and about with the protesting, I was the one told 'em "just leaving isn't that simple."

And the rest that were all gung ho and "let's get'em" and otherwise caught up in the moment, I was the one told 'em, "whether the costs outweigh the benefits, or it's the right thing to do, or not, this war was committed to without a clear exit strategy or for that matter even a clear GOAL. We're gonna have another Vietnam".

Sure enough......

I'd like to be wrong every so often, really. I wouldn't mind........

 

[Tez3]

Aha Andy, you've been outed now I know where the Britishisms come from lol!
As I said it's no criticism of American troops, they didn't have, luckily I think, the chance to 'train' in Northern Ireland. Incidentally the guys patrolling the streets out there, the ones engaged in the actual urban warfare part of it, the street fighting if you like, were the Infantry, the Royal Marines and the RAF Regiment not the SAS who are spec ops. (who are far too often credited with the SBS's work.)
These same guys are the ones out in Iraq and Afghanistan now. The damage is immense, we still have people with PTSD and physical wounds from the Falklands as well as NI. As for not targeting civilians well all I can say is have you seen the photos from the first Iraq war of the Basra road? The real photos of what really happened there?

Putin could mean it but still be sabre rattling. depends what he has to back it up.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Never saw the photos you mention.

I'm not naive enough to think that soldiers *never* give civilians the works, don't worry.

But as far as I know it's generally the policy to avoid collateral damage when it is possible to do so, which is why I mentioned to TwinFist why the whole "combined arms" thing isn't really optimized for use in our current unpleasantness.

Then, too, I am beginning to believe that both your country and mine are the only two left that even make the *attempt* at trying to keep civvies out of it........

 

[Big Don]

*yawn*
Completely predictable.
The Republican Slander Machine and its tools are starting to lie again.

At least come up with a few new ones.

Yeah, because you and your ilk have never slandered anyone...
CBS' Bush National Guard story, etc...

 

[Tez3]

Never saw the photos you mention.

I'm not naive enough to think that soldiers *never* give civilians the works, don't worry.

But as far as I know it's generally the policy to avoid collateral damage when it is possible to do so, which is why I mentioned to TwinFist why the whole "combined arms" thing isn't really optimized for use in our current unpleasantness.

Then, too, I am beginning to believe that both your country and mine are the only two left that even make the *attempt* at trying to keep civvies out of it........

I think we have different, probably more black and white ideas of what a civilian is as opposed to a soldier. In the Northern Ireland conflict the IRA saw everyone who wasn't with them as soldiers against them hence the bombing of civilian targets. It also put the fear of terrorism into everyday life.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Yeah, because you and your ilk have never slandered anyone...

CBS' Bush National Guard story, etc...

And we were doing so well..............

 

[Tez3]

yeah, thats about right, D-Day loses were horrific.

"To an extent this is true but our enemies are becoming smarter now to the point they use our general unwillingness to casually sacrifice civilian noncombatants and do their best to force us to fight in just thoose conditions where arty and air strikes don't get as many opportunities as they once did."

Yeah, true, no one said the terrorists were stupid, just cowards. We really did need work on our urban assault skills, glad that they are doing more and more of that now.


Marginal,
Yeah, solar panels. They are cool, but will they stop terrorists? didnt think so. Apples and oranges man. And BTW- i dont think Putin is just saber rattling. I am pretty sure he means it.

Just a quick one here, have you read or know anything about the deaths of American soldiers who were rehearsing for the D Day landings in England? 749 soldiers died in Devon. German U boats attacked while they were practising for the landings. I went to the 60th anniversary memorial four years ago.
sorry back on subject again.

 

[Twin Fist]

Andy,
to be fair, Tellner trolled the thread

Don responded, with a good point I might add.






Tellner,
Still waiting for proof of a lie in the thread or the original story. Or a retraction.

 

[Marginal]

\
Marginal,
Yeah, solar panels. They are cool, but will they stop terrorists? didnt think so.

Security's not solely achieved by the barrel of a gun. Moving towards energy independence would certainly give us less cause to have to deal with the middle east at all. Less poking of the anthill, the less terrorists are likely to target us.

Apples and oranges man. And BTW- i dont think Putin is just saber rattling. I am pretty sure he means it.

He's largely backed down as it is. Bush and Putin were all smiles at the last meeting after all.

 

[Twin Fist]

Marginal,
Yeah, when we achieve energy independance, we can tell the whole middle east to go self fornicate

I like that idea

 

[CoryKS]

Marginal,
Yeah, when we achieve energy independance, we can tell the whole middle east to go self fornicate

I like that idea

There will be no need for that - they'll be raising goats again. :rofl:

 

[Big Don]

There will be no need for that - they'll be raising goats again. :rofl:

Goats, bah. Goats are for pikers.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

In regards to the type of combat soldiers are engaging in Iraq, as well as the purpose, one has to ask: is the U.S. properly trained for the purpose given.

This is an insurgency. The U.S. has historically not been good at such wars, ie., Vietnam. The British however, have a fairly good track record. I would ask you to compare, say the Malayan Emergency vs. Vietnam.

The British military and the U.S. military operate(d) on two completely different understandings of what war of this type entails.

These types of wars take a long time and take a policeman type mentality. It does not good to blow up a city block to kill a handful of insurgents. Its counterproductive. I give you a quote from Mahatma Gandhi:

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.

I agree with the fact that we should have gone into Iraq. In fact, it was long overdue in my perspective. But the U.S. institutional mentality is not such to be able to win an insurgent war.

 

[Makalakumu]

Modern wars aren't meant to be won. They are meant to be sustained. The same people fund both sides and make more money that way...

 

[Big Don]

Modern wars aren't meant to be won. They are meant to be sustained. The same people fund both sides and make more money that way...

Modern wars cannot be won because the legislature doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to explain to the people that losses will be suffered as a consequence of any armed conflict and that collateral damage is a horrible but, sadly unavoidable thing.

 

[Tez3]

Modern wars cannot be won because the legislature doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to explain to the people that losses will be suffered as a consequence of any armed conflict and that collateral damage is a horrible but, sadly unavoidable thing.

People aren't as stupid as you seem to think, war means dead people simple as that, not 'collateral damage' - dead people. Dead service personnel, dead mothers, dead children, dead fathers. Dead people. It's often said that Americans can't understand what war means because they have only ever sent their soldiers to war they have never sustained heavy civilian casualties on their home ground, been bombed or invaded within living memory.
You treat your dead and injured service personnel as heroes, quite rightly so but your civilian population as no idea what war entails other than seen through a screen. You talk of winning wars as if it were so easy, just send enough of out brave, well trained, well equipped guys out there, expect losses but hell how can we lose this war. We always win in the films!
Wars are never won, no one comes out a winner. Territory may be won or a partyline imposed but never does anyone win in a war. This is why we should think so carefully before starting one.
It's so easy to demand that your government sends out the army after all it's not you doing the paying is it?
Evryday I see young men and women get on the coaches taking them to Brize Norton and the aircraft that will take them to war, I wonder how many I will see making the return journey, too many haven't. They don't want to die or be maimed but they are serving their country and many believe the country has asked too much of them. This isn't a war about right and wrong, it's a war about oil and money and egos.