O.O.D.A loop, do you train it/use it.

[Juany118]

Boyd’s O.O.D.A Loop and How We Use It

Okay the cognitive tunneling thread brought this to mind but I thought it may be worthy of its own discussion so; for instructors that include self defense tactics do you train the O.O.D.A loop, even if you didn't realize it? Fellow students like myself do you practice this even if you didn't realize it?

We actually have a white board in the school that has this permanently written on it.

 

[Buka]

Yes, but no, not at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Boyd’s O.O.D.A Loop and How We Use It

Okay the cognitive tunneling thread brought this to mind but I thought it may be worthy of its own discussion so; for instructors that include self defense tactics do you train the O.O.D.A loop, even if you didn't realize it? Fellow students like myself do you practice this even if you didn't realize it?

We actually have a white board in the school that has this permanently written on it.

We don't use it as such, but the principles are there. Essentially, OODA applies to those situations where you can see it coming. With an undetected attack, OODA no longer applies (no conscious decision point).

 

[marques]

A bit like other answers. If you can see, you can run away, avoid... And no or little room for/in self defence (action, actual conflict). I think it is more useful as self protection (reading the environment, predict threats...).

 

[hoshin1600]

"Two factors that affect your O.O.D.A. loop during the Orient step are Denial and Emotional Filter. Denial is when you refuse to accept or Deny that this is happening to you. Emotional Filter is a lot like Denial except that you wish that this were not happening. “Oh man, please don’t let this be happening”.

this is something that i have been bringing up here a few times now. i use the Cognitive dissonance theory.
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. An individual who experiences inconsistency (dissonance) tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to try to reduce this dissonance"
In self defense situations the victim will choose to rectify the inconsistency by thinking " this is not happening" or "did i just see what i thought i saw" and often ignore the stimulus that causes the dissonance.

the dissonance is caused by the "cognitive model" which is the way things are supposed to be and they way they normally are and this model is in conflict with the reality of the situation. "this can not be happening because its not supposed to be happening" causes a delay in reaction that may lead to a "freeze state".
i think the OODA loop gets stuck at the Orient stage because the brain cannot rectify that there is an actual threat.
i believe for every second that passes without a response the less likely any response will be taken. the key in training is to respond as quickly as possible.
to pull from Tony Blauer ....
action is faster than reaction,
"so if the bad guy is in action, the only thing that beats action is somebody who is in action"

the goal then is to be in action. your first Boyd cycle does not have to address the threat but only acknowledge it. as a call for awareness because of terrorism here in the states you often see signs saying "see something, say something" , for self defense i have changed that to " see something. DO something".
you are sitting on a bench and a mean looking guy is walking at you. you dont have to address a threat but prepare yourself in some way. adjust your position, stand up. put yourself in action. this will increase the speed of your threat response OODA loop and help prevent the cognative tunnel.

 

[Juany118]

Okay, as my instructor teaches that "sometimes the best defense is a good offense" it may be why he uses it more BUT I was also thinking that taking the O.O.D.A loop into consideration in training may help mitigate the cognitive tunneling mentioned in the other thread. Now I have only really seen it taught in courses either designed for Military and LEO (or civilian classes taught by former) but I wonder if the lack elsewhere is, in part, one of the reasons why you can have people great in training, even sometimes in the ring, but in a real life encounter it goes sideways for them. the much more dynamic nature of real life encounters steps outside the training regime. They know the techniques and when to apply them but do they practice when to "pull the trigger" so to speak.

 

[Juany118]

"Two factors that affect your O.O.D.A. loop during the Orient step are Denial and Emotional Filter. Denial is when you refuse to accept or Deny that this is happening to you. Emotional Filter is a lot like Denial except that you wish that this were not happening. “Oh man, please don’t let this be happening”.

this is something that i have been bringing up here a few times now. i use the Cognitive dissonance theory.
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. An individual who experiences inconsistency (dissonance) tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to try to reduce this dissonance"
In self defense situations the victim will choose to rectify the inconsistency by thinking " this is not happening" or "did i just see what i thought i saw" and often ignore the stimulus that causes the dissonance.

the dissonance is caused by the "cognitive model" which is the way things are supposed to be and they way they normally are and this model is in conflict with the reality of the situation. "this can not be happening because its not supposed to be happening" causes a delay in reaction that may lead to a "freeze state".
i think the OODA loop gets stuck at the Orient stage because the brain cannot rectify that there is an actual threat.
i believe for every second that passes without a response the less likely any response will be taken. the key in training is to respond as quickly as possible.
to pull from Tony Blauer ....
action is faster than reaction,
"so if the bad guy is in action, the only thing that beats action is somebody who is in action"

the goal then is to be in action. your first Boyd cycle does not have to address the threat but only acknowledge it. as a call for awareness because of terrorism here in the states you often see signs saying "see something, say something" , for self defense i have changed that to " see something. DO something".
you are sitting on a bench and a mean looking guy is walking at you. you dont have to address a threat but prepare yourself in some way. adjust your position, stand up. put yourself in action. this will increase the speed of your threat response OODA loop and help prevent the cognative tunnel.

Exactly. The Loop is basically a tool to help you understand the process from Observation to Action and thus identify potential "choke" points and train to get through them more easily. All too often I see where they teach the techniques but in a way that doesn't really address the dynamism of a real world encounter. Even in sparring people are already, essentially, ready to fight, vs also teaching reading the queues (that you can easily practice on your own walking around a mall or something) of potential violence. Most of the time denial kicks in because someone that you did not notice, or only peripherally noticed, acts in a hostile way. Seldom however is the time when someone "comes stealthily out of the shadows to attack you." Even then, enough muscle memory can make it work.

I remember one night coming home early from work at like 4am. The wife didn't know I was coming home. I went to give her a kiss and my shadowy presence coming down made her think "oh crap, burglar, HEAD BUTT!!!!"

Got a bloody, but not broken, nose out of the deal. Lol

 

[hoshin1600]

denial often happens because the victim didnt want to act. criminals take advantage of this. " i didnt want to be rude" "it would have been obvious i was scared if i stood up". people have meany reasons for non action. they are not sure something is happening so they decide not to "put themselves into action".

in cognitive dissonance one cure is behavior modification. so i train people to "see something DO something"

in other cases it just takes time for the brain to put the puzzle pieces together. i was driving down the street one evening and there was a couple of mixed race walking down the sidewalk hand in hand. the people in the car in front of me did something. i saw something out of their windows. it took my mind way too long to recognize that they threw eggs at the couple. by the time my mind put the puzzle pieces together the car was way out of range for me to do anything. i remember saying to myself out loud,, "what did i just see".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really like this discussion. Thanks for starting this one!

 

[hoshin1600]

I wonder if the lack elsewhere is, in part, one of the reasons why you can have people great in training, even sometimes in the ring, but in a real life encounter it goes sideways for them. the much more dynamic nature of real life encounters steps outside the training regime. They know the techniques and when to apply them but do they practice when to "pull the trigger" so to speak.

yep.

i say that martial arts is a skill based practice. they practice the martial skills but not much else.

the first bit in this clip is spot on about the choke defense. it shows how martial arts start their training at the point of "too late".
there is a gap between the dojo and the street. its my job to bridge that gap and make it as small as possible.
"pulling the trigger" is a interesting subject for me. there is a lot to it. but yes as a civilian in many cases you have never pulled that trigger before. the assumption that is made is that you are in a state of doing nothing then you "pull the trigger" and your in a fight.
i can imagine the internal conversation going on in peoples head......ok hes really big, what do i do? do i run? is he going to do something ? yes i think he is....do i hit him? do i hit him, is he going to hit me? if i hit him first then i started the fight......WACK your too late and your staring at the ceiling.
as a civilian you dont know when to act. training must also teach pre-contact clues as well as legal advise to help define when its ok to act. then the students have to train in proper mind set. like i said you have to be in action, that includes mental action. making the decision that you are going to act. the decision that your going to knock this guy out if he makes one pre-contact clue, needs to be made in advance.
your action is not just the punch or draw but includes the entire lead up to it. this needs to be trained as well.

 

[Juany118]

denial often happens because the victim didnt want to act. criminals take advantage of this. " i didnt want to be rude" "it would have been obvious i was scared if i stood up". people have meany reasons for non action. they are not sure something is happening so they decide not to "put themselves into action".

Absolutely. I think that goes to target hardening that @gpseymour spoke of in another thread.

in other cases it just takes time for the brain to put the puzzle pieces together. i was driving down the street one evening and there was a couple of mixed race walking down the sidewalk hand in hand. the people in the car in front of me did something. i saw something out of their windows. it took my mind way too long to recognize that they threw eggs at the couple. by the time my mind put the puzzle pieces together the car was way out of range for me to do anything. i remember saying to myself out loud,, "what did i just see".

I find this tends to happen more so when the action is not directed at you. More than once even at work I have found myself driving by something and saying "they didn't just do that right in front of me!?!?" On the other hand when something is directed at me I don't have that. Then again I have about 25 combined years in one uniform or another so I am conditioned for that I suppose.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I follow this, but never in so many words, which makes it tougher to teach to other people. Will definitely use this to more concretely explain the principles involved.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but no, not at all.

I use a version where i will slap people in the back of the head and tell them to "switch on"

This is usually where boobs take greater priority than identifying threats.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Absolutely. I think that goes to target hardening that @gpseymour spoke of in another thread.



I find this tends to happen more so when the action is not directed at you. More than once even at work I have found myself driving by something and saying "they didn't just do that right in front of me!?!?" On the other hand when something is directed at me I don't have that. Then again I have about 25 combined years in one uniform or another so I am conditioned for that I suppose.

That's an interesting point - I hadn't thought about it being easier to end up in denial if the action is indirect (directed at another).

 

[drop bear]

That's an interesting point - I hadn't thought about it being easier to end up in denial if the action is indirect (directed at another).

There you make a logical choice to engage in risk.

 

[drop bear]

yep.

i say that martial arts is a skill based practice. they practice the martial skills but not much else.

the first bit in this clip is spot on about the choke defense. it shows how martial arts start their training at the point of "too late".
there is a gap between the dojo and the street. its my job to bridge that gap and make it as small as possible.
"pulling the trigger" is a interesting subject for me. there is a lot to it. but yes as a civilian in many cases you have never pulled that trigger before. the assumption that is made is that you are in a state of doing nothing then you "pull the trigger" and your in a fight.
i can imagine the internal conversation going on in peoples head......ok hes really big, what do i do? do i run? is he going to do something ? yes i think he is....do i hit him? do i hit him, is he going to hit me? if i hit him first then i started the fight......WACK your too late and your staring at the ceiling.
as a civilian you dont know when to act. training must also teach pre-contact clues as well as legal advise to help define when its ok to act. then the students have to train in proper mind set. like i said you have to be in action, that includes mental action. making the decision that you are going to act. the decision that your going to knock this guy out if he makes one pre-contact clue, needs to be made in advance.
your action is not just the punch or draw but includes the entire lead up to it. this needs to be trained as well.

Or as they say. The best way to defend double underhooks is dont let them get double underhooks.

There are a lot of attacks that are defeated by good fundimentals.

 

[Juany118]

That's an interesting point - I hadn't thought about it being easier to end up in denial if the action is indirect (directed at another).

Well tbh, and maybe I am a little off, I think personal denial is more a product of society. We live in an society of "law and order" now so when violence is visited upon some they go into denial.

If this happened when we were hunter gatherers however I don't think we would have lasted. To freeze and say "why is this happening to me" on the hunt and the animal turns to charge? That wouldn't have ended well. The "Fight or flight" of the primitive brain is there to let us react to that situation, if we go with the flow. That is why I spoke on the thread you started on cognitive tunneling that training should be such that it takes advantage of "fight or flight" vs working against it.

Thing is "fight or flight" doesn't kick in if we are, for lack of a better term, a spectator. We need to feel involved, one way or the other, in what we are viewing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well tbh, and maybe I am a little off, I think personal denial is more a product of society. We live in an society of "law and order" now so when violence is visited upon some they go into denial.

If this happened when we were hunter gatherers however I don't think we would have lasted. To freeze and say "why is this happening to me" on the hunt and the animal turns to charge? That wouldn't have ended well. The "Fight or flight" of the primitive brain is there to let us react to that situation, if we go with the flow. That is why I spoke on the thread you started on cognitive tunneling that training should be such that it takes advantage of "fight or flight" vs working against it.

Thing is "fight or flight" doesn't kick in if we are, for lack of a better term, a spectator. We need to feel involved, one way or the other, in what we are viewing.

I think you're definitely right that the denial is due to expectation (based on societal norms). This goes back to cognitive dissonance. We create a mental model of what the world is like, what we expect. If we find evidence that doesn't match that, our brain has two choices: ignore the conflicting data (similar to confirmation bias), or use the conflicting data to draw a new conclusion (new model of current state). Denial, of course, is the result of our brain ignoring the conflicting data. If we train ourselves to look for cues - using them to create a new model of current state - we should be far less prone to denial.

You are correct that your time as an LEO (that, probably more usefully than any military experience, in this case) has conditioned you to use those cues. Why? Because you were going around, quite literally, looking for trouble. Since you're looking for it (because it's your job to find it and stop it if you can), you're likely to incorporate the new information. The average person on the street is less likely to do so, because they aren't actively (or automatically, based on conditioning) looking for where trouble might be.

 

[Buka]

We all have our little quirks. Mine is the OODA LOOP, (or the fruit loop/hula hoop, as we so callously called it) It's Not wrong, it's not, but it's inception was focused more on military strategy and later adapted to the paradigms of business. (I use such fancy talk - which fits right in with the whole OODA LOOP concept)

Please indulge me ...

As a young DT instructor, one of my Lieutenants came up to me and asked, "What equipment do you need?'.
I replied, "Actually, we're all set, Lieutenant."
He said, "well, get un-set. We got 2,500 bucks left in this years budget and if we don't spend it in the next thirty days, we lose that amount in next years budget.....so what do you need?"
"I need some good mats", I beamed.
We got the mats. (Yay!)

That seemed like a good thing to me, so, I went on a quest to learn more about budgets. We had a bunch of them. A DT budget, a General Training budget, a Research and Development budget, a Travel budget, this budget, that budget and all the other little budgets. Their respective fiscal years ended at different times, so I started tracking them. Any time one was nearing it's end, and there was cash available, I would put in a request for travel and training in anything that was even remotely related to DT.
Kind of a no-brainer. I mean, what would you rather do, work your regular shifts or go away, all expenses paid, to play rock and roll with some other guys who did DT?

At the time, eighties and nineties, the oodaloop thing was in vogue, it was all the rage, it had made a big comeback from the fifties.
I came to realize the folks teaching it were doing the same thing I was - milking the system. I was doing it to learn....maybe they were, too, I don't know. But it complicated the training. Confused it. Made it far more convoluted than was necessary.
(Young guys - look up "convoluted" to reacquaint yourself with the word)

The whole "orientation" part (the second O in OODA-LOOP), which was one of their keystones, and it's relations to Gestalt theory and Hicks Law (which should actually be called Hicks-Hyman Law)
SEE, see what I'm doing? I'm complicating the whole fricken' thing with words - and I'm not even trying to.

In reality, in OUR world, us Martial Artists, us cops, us regular people - when something happens - we act and adapt on the fly. That's really all there is to it.

It's why I've always hated the term OODA loop. It's why I always will.

 

[Juany118]

We all have our little quirks. Mine is the OODA LOOP, (or the fruit loop/hula hoop, as we so callously called it) It's Not wrong, it's not, but it's inception was focused more on military strategy and later adapted to the paradigms of business. (I use such fancy talk - which fits right in with the whole OODA LOOP concept)

Please indulge me ...

As a young DT instructor, one of my Lieutenants came up to me and asked, "What equipment do you need?'.
I replied, "Actually, we're all set, Lieutenant."
He said, "well, get un-set. We got 2,500 bucks left in this years budget and if we don't spend it in the next thirty days, we lose that amount in next years budget.....so what do you need?"
"I need some good mats", I beamed.
We got the mats. (Yay!)

That seemed like a good thing to me, so, I went on a quest to learn more about budgets. We had a bunch of them. A DT budget, a General Training budget, a Research and Development budget, a Travel budget, this budget, that budget and all the other little budgets. Their respective fiscal years ended at different times, so I started tracking them. Any time one was nearing it's end, and there was cash available, I would put in a request for travel and training in anything that was even remotely related to DT.
Kind of a no-brainer. I mean, what would you rather do, work your regular shifts or go away, all expenses paid, to play rock and roll with some other guys who did DT?

At the time, eighties and nineties, the oodaloop thing was in vogue, it was all the rage, it had made a big comeback from the fifties.
I came to realize the folks teaching it were doing the same thing I was - milking the system. I was doing it to learn....maybe they were, too, I don't know. But it complicated the training. Confused it. Made it far more convoluted than was necessary.
(Young guys - look up "convoluted" to reacquaint yourself with the word)

The whole "orientation" part (the second O in OODA-LOOP), which was one of their keystones, and it's relations to Gestalt theory and Hicks Law (which should actually be called Hicks-Hyman Law)
SEE, see what I'm doing? I'm complicating the whole fricken' thing with words - and I'm not even trying to.

In reality, in OUR world, us Martial Artists, us cops, us regular people - when something happens - we act and adapt on the fly. That's really all there is to it.

It's why I've always hated the term OODA loop. It's why I always will.

Well I think like anything it depends on how it is used. If you use it as it is, on its face, it's a good thing BUT you sure as hell can complicate the hell of it as well and make it a confusing mess. I never had to deal with the OODA loop in that kind of teaching context...

Thank freaking god. Were they just bored trying to figure out how many different psychological theories they could throw into one class?!?