Not the best of time for the |Catholic Church

[kaizasosei]

Good thing we are in more progressive times, I was beaten with a wooden coat hanger by my mother, it taught me nothing except to reject the Catholic Church as the biggest scam (she was and still is religious) and it was more for her to release her anger than teach me anything.

That's too bad. Sounds like you made sense of it for yourself somehow.

 

[grydth]

Good thing we are in more progressive times, I was beaten with a wooden coat hanger by my mother, it taught me nothing except to reject the Catholic Church as the biggest scam (she was and still is religious) and it was more for her to release her anger than teach me anything.

I think it takes real courage to talk about these experiences. My sincere respect to you.

I would not presume to lecture you or anyone here on religion, and would only observe that," The Diety is with me, so I can **** you!" is not unique to any one religion. Also, with time you may be able to step back and not judge an entire group by one of its worst members.

 

[Tez3]

A lot there depends on context and historical setting. The British school system was notorious for birchings and canings, such that there is quite a fetish there now amongst those who were so punished and now are tweaked that way.

My father beat me with a belt; didn't turn me kinky (I have different kinks), but it sure left welts. Different times. I'm not broken because of the beatings I endured.

Was it really? I think perhaps you've made that up.

There's no such thing as a British school system, the schools in each country are different and then we have the public schools such as Eton, Harrow, Winchester etc which I'm guessing is the schools you are thinking of as much is made of public school boys in books such as Tom Brown's School Days, Flashman etc.

I've never been hit in school and I've never been hit at home, to punish children by hitting and beating them is heinous and unforgivable. there's never a reason to beat a child whatever you think they have done.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, need to be careful about what is history and what is fiction, Bill.

Now, given what this thread is about that contains a fair dollop of irony in and of itself .

 

[Tez3]

Talking of schools and Christian churches etc, this time of year was always dodgy for me at school, the Christians used to think it funny to try beat the Jews up. I think that's where my fighting spirit started up, aged 10, standing and defending myself against a gang who said I killed Jesus.
Although I'm interested in what other religions think and believe, it doesn't matter to me what it is UNTIL they start affecting me and mine. The Catholic church sadly has affected me and mine quite a lot over time.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sad to hear of that unfortunate confluence of faiths and their use as an excuse for youthful bullying .

It does seem to have been traditional for the holiday seasons to be used as a trigger for mass violence if there was a Catholic school on hand. It was for me in my little country town and also for my missus in her's. Huge fights between hundreds of pupils from the adjacent schools - nowadays I am sure there would be riot vans all over the place!

Mind you, no one ended up seriously hurt or in hospital, so don't get the impression that this was gang-violence writ large amidst the educational establishments of England. There is a big difference between a 'punch up' and a 'beating' after all.

Anyhow, I'm getting tangential here, so I shall be quiet and get ready to go and whing steel around for the afternoon ...

 

[Ramirez]

The Archbishop of Canterbury enters the fray.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jQWrzPjAEtxgfa_tARqu5413A4PAD9ERIATO1

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Talking of schools and Christian churches etc, this time of year was always dodgy for me at school, the Christians used to think it funny to try beat the Jews up. I think that's where my fighting spirit started up, aged 10, standing and defending myself against a gang who said I killed Jesus.
Although I'm interested in what other religions think and believe, it doesn't matter to me what it is UNTIL they start affecting me and mine. The Catholic church sadly has affected me and mine quite a lot over time.

I think in this case, though, the blame belongs on the school children who decided to act in that way, isn't it? The Catholic Church does not condone violence against Jews or anyone else, just as it does not condone sexual molestation. I am sorry to hear what happened to you, it's reprehensible.

The worst I can say happened to me growing up on account of my religion is that the Protestant kids used to vie to see who would sit next to me at various sports awards banquets, which were invariably on Fridays during Lent and invariably steak dinners. The one who got to sit next to me got two, I got none.

 

[Tez3]

I think in this case, though, the blame belongs on the school children who decided to act in that way, isn't it? The Catholic Church does not condone violence against Jews or anyone else, just as it does not condone sexual molestation. I am sorry to hear what happened to you, it's reprehensible.

The worst I can say happened to me growing up on account of my religion is that the Protestant kids used to vie to see who would sit next to me at various sports awards banquets, which were invariably on Fridays during Lent and invariably steak dinners. The one who got to sit next to me got two, I got none.

Actually the blame lies with the Catholic teacher who told them that we killed Jesus and deserve everything we get, and illustrating this with tals from the Inquistition. She was actually sacked a few years later after she went too far and started attacking the Church of Scotland which has to be said isn't that friendly to the Catholic Church thanks to John Knox.

Ah yes though, the Church forgave us didn't he, for killing Jesus! However
recent Bulls and Encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI that reinstate anti-Semitic prayers and Catholic societies do not augur well for the Church not condoning anti Semitism.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The Archbishop of Canterbury enters the fray.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jQWrzPjAEtxgfa_tARqu5413A4PAD9ERIATO1

I do not think that the Anglican Church has a leg to stand on here. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

I did a Google Archive New search for the keywords [religion] church child molestation. This is not intended to be scientific, but it's a quick-and-dirty set of results that have some basic utility.

http://tiny.cc/9gj0c

Results 1 - 10 of about 4,940 for anglican church child molestation. (0.29 seconds)


http://tiny.cc/hvnes

Results 1 - 10 of about 42,700 for catholic church child molestation. (0.19 seconds)

Now, it's always difficult to pin down precise numbers of religious in a given religion, but Wikipedia pegs the number of Anglicans worldwide (including Episcopals, etc) as 77 million.

The number of Catholics is likewise given as 1.147 billion. So let's do a little math.

1,147,000,000 Catholics and 42,700 Google news hits for child molestation = 0.000372276 or 3 molestations per 10,000 Catholics.

7,700,000 Anglicans and 4,940 Google news hits for child molestation = 0.000641558 or 6 molestations per 10,000 Anglicans.

Based purely on Google News hits, the Anglican church has suffered twice the rate of child molestation reports.

This is, as I said, not scientific. I'm sure it's not accurate, and I would not swear by these numbers. I am using this to illustrate that child sexual molestation is not a Catholic issue, but it would seem to be, based on how often we see news reports mentioning child sexual molestation and the Catholic church. The Catholic Church is much, much, larger than most of the other Christian denominations, which are also suffering these problems.

I therefore respectfully suggest that the Archbishop of Canterbury consider the beam in his own eye before noticing the mite in that of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Actually the blame lies with the Catholic teacher who told them that we killed Jesus and deserve everything we get, and illustrating this with tals from the Inquistition. She was actually sacked a few years later after she went too far and started attacking the Church of Scotland which has to be said isn't that friendly to the Catholic Church thanks to John Knox.

I was unaware of this, wasn't I? Of course that it intolerable, and good that she was sent off.

Ah yes though, the Church forgave us didn't he, for killing Jesus! However
recent Bulls and Encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI that reinstate anti-Semitic prayers and Catholic societies do not augur well for the Church not condoning anti Semitism.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about Catholics. It might be more politically correct to ignore (our) history about how Jesus came to die on the cross, but we don't do that. We also do not think that Jews ever stopped being God's chosen people, nor do we 'blame' them for the Crucifixion. I certainly do not blame Jews for anything, nor do I think they should be beaten up after school, nor was I ever taught that. If you wish to think I am lying to you, it's your choice.

 

[Ramirez]

I therefore respectfully suggest that the Archbishop of Canterbury consider the beam in his own eye before noticing the mite in that of the Catholic Church.

I think that was payback for the Pope trying to welcome/poach disaffected Anglican Churches into the Catholic Church last year.

 

[Tez3]

I was unaware of this, wasn't I? Of course that it intolerable, and good that she was sent off.



I'm sorry that you feel this way about Catholics. It might be more politically correct to ignore (our) history about how Jesus came to die on the cross, but we don't do that. We also do not think that Jews ever stopped being God's chosen people, nor do we 'blame' them for the Crucifixion. I certainly do not blame Jews for anything, nor do I think they should be beaten up after school, nor was I ever taught that. If you wish to think I am lying to you, it's your choice.

Why are you always on the attack? You seem to delight in attributing 'feelings' and putting words into people's mouths.
I don't feel anyway towards Catholics, I treat everyone as individuals whatever their religion.I don't hate or even dislike Catholics, why would I? I express the doubts that many feel towards a Pope who seems to want to turn the clock back on certain things which directly affect me, perhaps it's hangover from his Hitler Youth days.
Where would you get that I think you are lying?

I think you perhaps need to take a deep breath and actually think before you attack people, it's one of the reasons I've stopped posting so much here, something I used to like doing but the constant aggressiveness of your posts is upsetting.

I mentioned an incident that happened while I was in school in Scotland in the 60s why would you think I was blaming you in particular?

 

[Tez3]

I think that was payback for the Pope trying to welcome/poach disaffected Anglican Churches into the Catholic Church last year.

I think you're right. The Pope has seriously upset the C of E.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6883151.ece

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why are you always on the attack? You seem to delight in attributing 'feelings' and putting words into people's mouths.

I am sorry that you think I'm attacking you. I will do my best to ameliorate my words.

I don't feel anyway towards Catholics, I treat everyone as individuals whatever their religion.I don't hate or even dislike Catholics, why would I?

I beg your pardon, but it was you who stated what the Catholic Church believes, as opposed to what the people who assaulted you chose to believe, or even what a warped teacher believed.

When you say that the Catholic Church believes this or that and it's not my understanding of the Church, I do feel compelled to offer my opinion on the matter. That was my only intent.

I express the doubts that many feel towards a Pope who seems to want to turn the clock back on certain things which directly affect me, perhaps it's hangover from his Hitler Youth days.
Where would you get that I think you are lying?

When you state that the Catholic Church is anti-semitic and I am a Catholic, it would seem that you are stating I am anti-semitic as well. I am not, nor do I believe that my Church teaches any such thing. I offered the statement that you could continue to believe that the Church teaches anti-semitism (in which case I am lying about not being anti-semitic) or you can believe me when I say I am not anti-semitic and neither is my Church in my experience.

I think you perhaps need to take a deep breath and actually think before you attack people, it's one of the reasons I've stopped posting so much here, something I used to like doing but the constant aggressiveness of your posts is upsetting.

I dislike your tone here, and I'll tell you why. First, while I can and have posted from the hip without giving any particular matter enough thought, I do try my best to consider each point, as opposed to glossing over someone's statements and making a general come-back as many here tend to do. As I said earlier, I do not see my posts as 'attacks' but rebuttals, and to be quite honest, I don't see myself as 'aggressive' but as assertive. I have strong opinions about some things (and some I have no opinion about at all, and say so) and when I do, I express myself (I hope) clearly and concisely, and I defend my points with logic; or at least that is my intent and firm hope.

But what I object to is the implied threat "If you don't stop posting things which upset me, I am going to go away and it will be all your fault." I'm truly sorry that sometimes you and I do not exactly see eye-to-eye. I try to treat you with respect and decency. If you choose to stop posting here, I will be sorry, because I enjoy your posts and I read them carefully and I hope thoughtfully. But I cannot stifle myself because you threaten to go away if I don't. There is an ignore button, or you can report me to the management if you feel it necessary.

I mentioned an incident that happened while I was in school in Scotland in the 60s why would you think I was blaming you in particular?

As I mentioned, your statement was a general condemnation of the Catholic Church, and when I tried to offer that it was the people themselves who treated you badly who were to blame, you offered a statement that the Catholic Church is officially anti-semitic. I am Catholic. I do not take your statement personally nor are my feelings hurt, but yes, if you state what you think Catholics believe, that would include me. If I don't actually believe that, I'm going to say so. That's fair, isn't it?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Historically the catholic Church is both anti semetic and anti islamic. i think the crusades is enough proof of that.. I'm an advocate of truth before tolerance, but in this case the RC church have neither been truthful or tolerant. The truth in Christian terms is that Christ died for the sins of humanity, if that is the truth then it doesn't make sense that the Jews would be responsible for the death of Jesus and yet Catholics have historically persecuted Jews.
Then again, the catholic hierarchy have historically been anti anything that isn't Catholic. In the past they've used both supernatural and physical coersion to expand their wealth and empire. They know that in this day and age that method won't work so instead, now they change their strategy and rely on sofisitcated PR campaigns.
I think the whole thing becomes ludicrous when a disgrace like Cardinal Law is on the council which elected Benedict to the position of pope. I think it quite disengenuous when people dismiss his membership of the Hitler youth. Just think about it. He was involved in Nazi propaganda at an age when he was highly impressionable. I think the same way about robert byrd in the senate. Membership of the KKK is relevant, regardless of his age at the time.
The Catholic Church will always be powerful, because their teachings have brainwashed the faithful for generations. It's time people were taught that the catholic churches "messianic-paganism" is not Christianity. Sure, they've done some good work and have had their true humanitarians, like Mother Teresa, but even the Nazi party had a great healthcre system.

 

[Tez3]

You really are the end aren't you Bill?
You take what people say and twist and turn it to mean what you want it to. I have never said what I think the Catholic Church believes in at all. I said that the recent moves by the Pope weren't promising. I didn't say it was currently anti semitic, it has been in the past certainly and yes certainly the current Pope was a member of an an extremely anti semitic as well as anti a lot of other things, organisation. You have read into my posts things that aren't there and I hadn't thought of, you've done this a lot to quite a few people, it's as if you are Mr Angry, finding things to get mad about and rant at people. I haven't threatened at all to go away, this is your reading of my posts through a red mist. I just find it hard to take pleasure in a debate when words are being twisted and every post sounds angry.
You may have strong opinions, many do but they also don't blow their top and see things that aren't there. There's a word for that....paranoia.

I said one Catholic teacher incited violence and hatred, I didn't say the Catholic Church. I said too she got her come uppance. I haven't blamed the Catholic Church for anything to do with me, I expressed doubts about the current Pope's actions. Don't pretend that was an attack on your church.

The C of E and the Archbishop of Canterbury can say what they like, nothing to do with me if the Christians want to go tit for tat. I was merely agreeing with another poster that it was more than likely what got the Archbishop going.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You really are the end aren't you Bill?

Not sure what that means, but OK if you say so.

You take what people say and twist and turn it to mean what you want it to. I have never said what I think the Catholic Church believes in at all.

You have. I am sorry, but these are your words, not mine:

"Ah yes though, the Church forgave us didn't he, for killing Jesus! However recent Bulls and Encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI that reinstate anti-Semitic prayers and Catholic societies do not augur well for the Church not condoning anti Semitism."

I'm not twisting your words at all. You stated that Pope Benedict has issued Bulls and Encyclicals that reinstate anti-semitic prayers. Your words, not mine. How can you say you have not stated what you think the Catholic Church believes in?

I said that the recent moves by the Pope weren't promising. I didn't say it was currently anti semitic, it has been in the past certainly and yes certainly the current Pope was a member of an an extremely anti semitic as well as anti a lot of other things, organisation.

You did say it was anti-semitic, and you did not refer to the past. Read your words again. Pope Benedict, you said, issued Bulls and Encyclicals that reinstate anti-semitic prayers. How is that not "currently anti-semitic?" I'm not playing with your words, these are literally your words, unaltered, unexpanded, and there for anyone to see.

You have read into my posts things that aren't there and I hadn't thought of, you've done this a lot to quite a few people, it's as if you are Mr Angry, finding things to get mad about and rant at people.

And again, I'm not mad, and this isn't a rant. I'm responding to an accusation you have made, which you now deny making. I'm reading back to you your own words, literally, without twisting anything.

I haven't threatened at all to go away, this is your reading of my posts through a red mist.

"I think you perhaps need to take a deep breath and actually think before you attack people, it's one of the reasons I've stopped posting so much here, something I used to like doing but the constant aggressiveness of your posts is upsetting."

Again, your words above. You don't post as much as you used to, and I'm the reason for it, according to you. I will amend my statement - you didn't threaten to go away, you said you already partially had, and I'm to blame for it.

I just find it hard to take pleasure in a debate when words are being twisted and every post sounds angry.

I do not know how to make my words sound less angry. I can only keep repeating that I am not angry.

You may have strong opinions, many do but they also don't blow their top and see things that aren't there. There's a word for that....paranoia.

You have yet to see me blow my top. I've done it, sure, but I haven't even come close on this forum. I'm not angry, not upset, not pissed off, not vengeful and I don't think you or anyone else is out to get me. By the way, I think you need to look up the meaning of the word 'paranoia'. It's got nothing to do with anger or seeing things that are not there, it's having unreasonable fears.

I said one Catholic teacher incited violence and hatred, I didn't say the Catholic Church.

You said Catholic students. When I suggested that the students themselves were to blame, then and only then did you drop the other shoe and announce that they were egged on by a Catholic teacher, since given the sack. And I agreed with you, rightfully so.

Then you stated (need I quote it again?) what the Catholic Church believes based on Pope Benedict's recent anti-semitic prayer reinstatement. So yes, you said the Catholic Church. I can't twist your words, you stated it plainly.

I said too she got her come uppance. I haven't blamed the Catholic Church for anything to do with me, I expressed doubts about the current Pope's actions. Don't pretend that was an attack on your church.

You didn't express doubts, you made a flat statement. I would like to see these Bulls and Encyclicals that reinstate anti-semitic prayers, if you don't mind. To date, he has issued three Encyclicals, entitled "God is Love," "Saved by Truth," and "Love in Truth." Please tell me which of these contains anti-semitic prayers. He has issued no Bulls whatsoever to date.

Of course it is an attack if it contains statements that are not true and which disparage the object of the statements. You expressed doubts, and that is certainly your right and not something I would ever object to. But you did make flat statements, and in my opinion, they're untrue. I've been trying to politely make that clear, but you seem determined not to accept responsibility for your own words, so I present them back to you once more:

"Ah yes though, the Church forgave us didn't he, for killing Jesus! However recent Bulls and Encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI that reinstate anti-Semitic prayers and Catholic societies do not augur well for the Church not condoning anti Semitism."

Tell me in what way your statement is not an accusation. Tell me what Bulls and Encyclicals you speak of. Point out the anti-semitic prayers, if you would be so kind.

And attack? Yes, you attacked. I am defending. This is standard, common, everyday discussion. I am not angry, not upset, I am asking for you to stand behind your words and defend them. I'm sorry if you're upset, but you can't make accusations and expect no one to take issue with them; especially if they're untrue.

The C of E and the Archbishop of Canterbury can say what they like, nothing to do with me if the Christians want to go tit for tat. I was merely agreeing with another poster that it was more than likely what got the Archbishop going.

I agree that might well the root cause as well.

 

[Ramirez]

Bill: criticism of the Catholic Church does not imply criticism of you, I doubt Tez lays the sins of the Catholic Church at the doorstep of every Catholic. And let's recognize the historical anti-semitism of the RC Church and every other Christian denomination, the RC church has even apologized for the anti-semitism.

Let's ignore internet arguments about Hitler's atheism/Catholicism etc. even if he was an atheist he picked up his anti-semitism where else but from the historical anti-semitism of RC church dominated Germany where he was raised.


Tez: yes Benedict was a member of the Hitler youth, so was every German of his age, his family was anti-Hitler and he deserted his military post as soon as he could. There are even instances of Jewish youth being a member of the Hitler youth, I have read accounts of the Nazis going into schools and declaring every student a member of the Hitler youth, some of them were Jews, the Nazis didn't think that any member of a particular upper class school could be Jewish.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill: criticism of the Catholic Church does not imply criticism of you, I doubt Tez lays the sins of the Catholic Church at the doorstep of every Catholic.

I agree that everyone should feel free to level criticism at the Catholic Church or at any institution, nothing is beyond criticism. As well, people should feel free to hold opinions, even those not based in fact. It's a personal issue for each person to work out on their own. I have plenty of personal opinions of my own, as most here know.

I am not saying that Tez blames me personally for the sins of the Catholic Church. I am saying that Tez has stated 'what Catholics believe' by stating what Tez believes the Pope has ordered. A Bull is an obligation on every practicing Catholic. If the Pope issues a Bull, it is binding on the laity.

One may think that they do not criticize every Catholic by saying "The Pope has issued a Bull that reinstated anti-semitic prayer," but they do; for if it is true, then that prayer is indeed mandatory for Catholics. Of course Catholics may refuse to heed it, but they're supposed to heed it, that's part of what it means to be Catholic; one accepts the primacy of the Pope on matters ecclesiastical.

And let's recognize the historical anti-semitism of the RC Church and every other Christian denomination, the RC church has even apologized for the anti-semitism.

Absolutely, and rightly so. And I take note of the extreme lengths to which the current Pope has gone to try to mend fences and make amends for the sins of the Catholic Church against Jews and Muslims.

Let's ignore internet arguments about Hitler's atheism/Catholicism etc. even if he was an atheist he picked up his anti-semitism where else but from the historical anti-semitism of RC church dominated Germany where he was raised.

I don't recall that even being brought up, and in any case, I do indeed ignore it.