Non-Wing Chun

[Hanzou]

Which is pretty much what you'd expect. Not sure why the folks running those schools didn't.

Frankly I think the underlying cause was a certain school trying to push online belt programs, where the person could do drills, but couldn't really spar. Certain affiliated schools drinking the kool-aid of the main school attempted to bring that concept into their actual gyms, much to the detriment of the students there.

 

[Hanzou]

Now, to hanzous point, where application also exists, (E.g., competition), sparring is very beneficial. Absent application, sparring can be pretty pointless.

Now that is an interesting point. The other side of the coin is that if your competition is devoid of fighting application, it can still cause your sparring to be pointless (i.e. point-fighting karate vs. full contact Karate).

 

[Steve]

Now that is an interesting point. The other side of the coin is that if your competition is devoid of fighting application, it can still cause your sparring to be pointless (i.e. point-fighting karate vs. full contact Karate).

Whatever the application is, that's the skill you're developing. So if it's a chi sao competition, your chi sao is going to be strong. Whether or not that translates to another context depends on your skill level and how similar the contexts are.

 

[Hanzou]

Whatever the application is, that's the skill you're developing. So if it's a chi sao competition, your chi sao is going to be strong. Whether or not that translates to another context depends on your skill level and how similar the contexts are.

So essentially what you're saying is that a competition aspect is vital to give martial practice a general purpose and to increase the general skill level of its participants?

 

[jobo]

Whatever the application is, that's the skill you're developing. So if it's a chi sao competition, your chi sao is going to be strong. Whether or not that translates to another context depends on your skill level and how similar the contexts are.

it will most definitely tranfere, the only question is how much

whacking a tenis ball agaibst a wall transferes to playibg tennis,

 

[jobo]

So essentially what you're saying is that a competition aspect is vital to give martial practice a general purpose and to increase the general skill level of its participants?

its far from guaranteed tp do either of those thibgs

 

[Hanzou]

its far from guaranteed tp do either of those thibgs

I've experienced that in Bjj where there was a competition aspect, versus not experiencing that in Shotokan where there was no competition aspect.

 

[jobo]

I've experienced that in Bjj where there was a competition aspect, versus not experiencing that in Shotokan where there was no competition aspect.

im not really undestandibg your point, so il run with what ive got

practisibg karate can increse your abilities at actually fighting like hittibg a tennis ball against a wall, competition is not guarenteed to do any thing at all
like goibg up against a good tennis player is not always going to make you better at tennis and goibg up agaibst a bad tennis player certainly wont

 

[Hanzou]

im not really undestandibg your point, so il run with what ive got

practisibg karate can increse your abilities at actually fighting like hittibg a tennis ball against a wall, competition is not guarenteed to do any thing at all
like goibg up against a good tennis player is not always going to make you better at tenis

What I'm saying is that without the competition aspect in Shotokan, there was no hierarchy in skill beyond our dojo. That led to certain people in our dojo thinking we were hot ****, but beyond our dojo we were actually scrubs. Which is why when a boxer visited our school, we got tooled.

In Bjj there is a rather clear hierarchy beyond our school. This is partially because of how popular Bjj is, but also because there was always a sense that there are elite Bjj practitioners and you know very clearly who those elite practitioners are because they compete. Those elite practitioners in turn develop new techniques that filter down to the professionals, instructors, coaches, amateurs, and hobbyists. That gives the general Bjj community a direction in their sparring. Which is why when a boxer and a wrestler visited our school, we tooled them.

 

[jobo]

What I'm saying is that without the competition aspect in Shotokan, there was no hierarchy in skill beyond our dojo. That led to certain people in our dojo thinking we were hot ****, but beyond our dojo we were actually scrubs. Which is why when a boxer visited our school, we got tooled.

In Bjj there is a rather clear hierarchy beyond our school. This is partially because of how popular Bjj is, but also because there was always a sense that there are elite Bjj practitioners and you know very clearly who those elite practitioners are because they compete. Those elite practitioners in turn develop new techniques that filter down to the professionals, instructors, coaches, amateurs, and hobbyists. That gives the general Bjj community a direction in their sparring. Which is why when a boxer and a wrestler visited our school, we tooled them.

but im still waitibg for you to show that takibg part im comperticions slways ibcreases yoyr skill level, which is what you seemed to sugest above

 

[Hanzou]

but im still waitibg for you to show that takibg part im comperticions slways ibcreases yoyr skill level, which is what you seemed to sugest above

It always increased my skill level, because I was taking competition class alongside my standard Bjj class, and pretty much training everyday. Again, I can only speak for my personal experience, your mileage will vary.

 

[jobo]

It always increased my skill level, because I was taking competition class alongside my standard Bjj class, and pretty much training everyday. Again, I can only speak for my personal experience, your mileage will vary.

so ut was the class that oncreased your level not the actual contest , that sounds reasonable

 

[wckf92]

Someone please give jobo some spelling lessons.

 

[Punchy]

Someone please give jobo some spelling lessons.

I picture it more that he just has big sausage fingers.... or his voice text doesn't do British accents.

 

[jobo]

I picture it more that he just has big sausage fingers.... or his voice text doesn't do British accents.

thats a fair summary follow by cant be ars3d going through it again

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmm. Okay. You said this:
where I talk about application, you tend to substitute the word “sparring” and then move on. So, to be clear, I agree with your overarching point, that training model is important. However, it suggests to me that you don’t “get it” when, instead of thinking about contexts for application, your brain shifts instead to sparring as application. Said differently, if you think sparring is the key to skill development, I think you’re still missing the point.

Now, to hanzous point, where application also exists, (E.g., competition), sparring is very beneficial. Absent application, sparring can be pretty pointless.

No, I specifically was addressing sparring. Whether that's application or not is an entirely different discussion, and not really salient to my point, I thnk. If you disagree about what I said - without trying to substitute "application" for "sparring" - I'd be interested in understanding where our difference lies.

Sadly, if you think sparring isn't a factor in developing skills, I don't think I understand your thought process, at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Frankly I think the underlying cause was a certain school trying to push online belt programs, where the person could do drills, but couldn't really spar. Certain affiliated schools drinking the kool-aid of the main school attempted to bring that concept into their actual gyms, much to the detriment of the students there.

That makes sense. I've discussed those online programs, and I think they have value for folks who already have some grappling experience (and a partner to work with), but their usefulness to a beginner seems doubtful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its far from guaranteed tp do either of those thibgs

I think it'd be difficult to imagine a scenario where competition didn't lead to improving skill in whatever the competition is, over time.

 

[jobo]

I think it'd be difficult to imagine a scenario where competition didn't lead to improving skill in whatever the competition is, over time.

how much time? and how much skill and how are you measuribg outcomes

 

[Steve]

No, I specifically was addressing sparring. Whether that's application or not is an entirely different discussion, and not really salient to my point, I thnk. If you disagree about what I said - without trying to substitute "application" for "sparring" - I'd be interested in understanding where our difference lies.

Sadly, if you think sparring isn't a factor in developing skills, I don't think I understand your thought process, at all.

Sparring can be a great training tool, though it's too broad a term to be meaningful. Some sparring is probably counter productive. Some sparring is very productive. Just depends on whether it helps you or hinders you reaching the goal.

However, application is always productive because application is the goal.