No women allowed In this guys BJJ class

[skribs]

So what is your bandaid measure to prevent people from dying until the root of the issue can actually be achieved?

Why waste time on a bandaid fix when you can jump right to the root of the problem?

1. Mandatory annual awareness training for doctors. If your training lapses, your privileges are revoked by your clinic, or your license revoked by your state (if private practice). Training to identify common racial biases and how to avoid them. This sets the tone that its important, and gives tools for doctors and staff to recognize these biases and act on them. Or if you see someone else acting this way, to have a mechanism to call them out.
2. Monitoring and reporting services. Track patient outcomes by race, and address any doctors, staff, or organizations that show a disparity between races. Have reporting procedures in place for staff or patients to report anything they think is a bias based on any protected status (race, gender, etc). This will make patients feel safer, and give recourse if they don't have the safe experience they expect.
3. If it is found that doctors are overtly acting in a racist fashion, fire them immediately and revoke their medical license. If they are simply acting on subconscious bias, give them stronger training on correcting that bias, and put them on probation. If they don't show an uptick in success rate unbiased of race, then fire them.

A bandaid will only obfuscate the issue and make it take longer for these measures to take effect. It will only reinforce the idea that white doctors aren't safe. Awareness training is something that could be implemented relatively quickly. And its something that wouldn't doom the career of every politician that signed it, nor would it put us on the potential path for further segregation.

 

[Steve]

Why waste time on a bandaid fix when you can jump right to the root of the problem?

1. Mandatory annual awareness training for doctors. If your training lapses, your privileges are revoked by your clinic, or your license revoked by your state (if private practice). Training to identify common racial biases and how to avoid them. This sets the tone that its important, and gives tools for doctors and staff to recognize these biases and act on them. Or if you see someone else acting this way, to have a mechanism to call them out.
2. Monitoring and reporting services. Track patient outcomes by race, and address any doctors, staff, or organizations that show a disparity between races. Have reporting procedures in place for staff or patients to report anything they think is a bias based on any protected status (race, gender, etc). This will make patients feel safer, and give recourse if they don't have the safe experience they expect.
3. If it is found that doctors are overtly acting in a racist fashion, fire them immediately and revoke their medical license. If they are simply acting on subconscious bias, give them stronger training on correcting that bias, and put them on probation. If they don't show an uptick in success rate unbiased of race, then fire them.

A bandaid will only obfuscate the issue and make it take longer for these measures to take effect. It will only reinforce the idea that white doctors aren't safe. Awareness training is something that could be implemented relatively quickly. And its something that wouldn't doom the career of every politician that signed it, nor would it put us on the potential path for further segregation.

Says a guy with no skin in the game (pun intended).

Me: Hey, my hand is in this blender! Argh. Turn it off! Turn it off!
You: We should make blenders safer. Maybe we should put some safety mechanisms in place to keep them from operating without a lid.
Me: Turn off the damn blender!!!
You: Why waste time on a bandaid fix when you can jump right to the root of the problem? I'll be back in a few years with a holistic proposal, that we can pitch to Congress, and maybe in a decade or possibly two decades, we can declare victory over unsafe blenders. Sorry about your hand.

 

[jobo]

Why waste time on a bandaid fix when you can jump right to the root of the problem?

1. Mandatory annual awareness training for doctors. If your training lapses, your privileges are revoked by your clinic, or your license revoked by your state (if private practice). Training to identify common racial biases and how to avoid them. This sets the tone that its important, and gives tools for doctors and staff to recognize these biases and act on them. Or if you see someone else acting this way, to have a mechanism to call them out.
2. Monitoring and reporting services. Track patient outcomes by race, and address any doctors, staff, or organizations that show a disparity between races. Have reporting procedures in place for staff or patients to report anything they think is a bias based on any protected status (race, gender, etc). This will make patients feel safer, and give recourse if they don't have the safe experience they expect.
3. If it is found that doctors are overtly acting in a racist fashion, fire them immediately and revoke their medical license. If they are simply acting on subconscious bias, give them stronger training on correcting that bias, and put them on probation. If they don't show an uptick in success rate unbiased of race, then fire them.

A bandaid will only obfuscate the issue and make it take longer for these measures to take effect. It will only reinforce the idea that white doctors aren't safe. Awareness training is something that could be implemented relatively quickly. And its something that wouldn't doom the career of every politician that signed it, nor would it put us on the potential path for further segregation.

the problem is we dont even know if there is a bias, unconscious or otherwise, you could do all that fail to make a difference and then conclude that even more training and self flagellation is required

an important part of the healing process and decisions about your own care, is built on trust,, making the doctor more trustworthy wont necessarily make more people trust them, then you need race awareness training for the patient, to understand how to trust someone of another race or you could let people choose their own doctor, thats largely what we do in the uk, seems to work ok

 

[Steve]

In case you didn't like my role play, I'll address your points specifically.

Why waste time on a bandaid fix when you can jump right to the root of the problem?

Mandatory annual awareness training for doctors. If your training lapses, your privileges are revoked by your clinic, or your license revoked by your state (if private practice). Training to identify common racial biases and how to avoid them. This sets the tone that its important, and gives tools for doctors and staff to recognize these biases and act on them. Or if you see someone else acting this way, to have a mechanism to call them out.

As a career trainer, and someone who has worked with subject matter experts many, many times to create and deliver training on all kinds of topics like this, I just want to say the following: training isn't always the answer. Consider this thread, for example. I've been sharing information with you and you're entirely unreceptive. You are convinced you already know the answer, and so you don't hear anything to the contrary. This isn't a slight. It's human nature.

Monitoring and reporting services. Track patient outcomes by race, and address any doctors, staff, or organizations that show a disparity between races. Have reporting procedures in place for staff or patients to report anything they think is a bias based on any protected status (race, gender, etc). This will make patients feel safer, and give recourse if they don't have the safe experience they expect.

Did you even look at the links I shared earlier? We already have this. We know the problem.

If it is found that doctors are overtly acting in a racist fashion, fire them immediately and revoke their medical license. If they are simply acting on subconscious bias, give them stronger training on correcting that bias, and put them on probation. If they don't show an uptick in success rate unbiased of race, then fire them.

What does "overtly acting in a racist fashion" actually look like to you? Genuine question.

A bandaid will only obfuscate the issue and make it take longer for these measures to take effect. It will only reinforce the idea that white doctors aren't safe. Awareness training is something that could be implemented relatively quickly. And its something that wouldn't doom the career of every politician that signed it, nor would it put us on the potential path for further segregation.

Actually, a bandaid is often the only way to clearly see the problem. Since you're using the term "bandaid," consider this. If you cut yourself really bad, and you need stitches, would you leave the cut open and just drive to the doctor's office, bleeding all over everything? Or would you put something on it, apply direct pressure, and either control or stop the bleeding until the doctor could stitch it up?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of people use it incorrectly as a general description of any inappropriate behavior.

No accusations here, Steve - I think this will sound harsh, but is an actual question, not rhetorical. Where are you getting the “correct” definition?

 

[skribs]

Says a guy with no skin in the game (pun intended).

My opinion doesn't matter because of my race. How is that not racist?

As a career trainer, and someone who has worked with subject matter experts many, many times to create and deliver training on all kinds of topics like this, I just want to say the following: training isn't always the answer. Consider this thread, for example. I've been sharing information with you and you're entirely unreceptive. You are convinced you already know the answer, and so you don't hear anything to the contrary. This isn't a slight. It's human nature.

This is entirely different. You're not my trainer. You're an equal on this forum. You think you're "training" me because you think you're right. I also think I'm training you, because I think I'm right. Neither of us has the power to enforce our opinion on the other. That's why it goes into the second part - stronger training for people who are in violation, and then firing them.

If a moderator had told me "you must post in ways that are in line with @Steve 's views or you will be banned", that would be the way to get me to think like you (or leave this forum). All that monitoring and statistics doesn't do anything if it doesn't get banned.

If you gather general statistics, you have identified the problem. If you identify problem doctors and correct their behavior on penalty of termination, you will solve the problem.

Did you even look at the links I shared earlier? We already have this. We know the problem.

Then it should be faster to move through the rest of the steps.

What does "overtly acting in a racist fashion" actually look like to you? Genuine question.

Makes racist comments, shows an obvious conscious bias towards blacks. An investigation would show this, by talking to the nursing staff. Contrary to what shows like The Resident would have you believe, hospitals have procedures in place to address patient safety issues. I work at a hospital. We have annual training every year on how to detect and report issues of discrimination on race, patient safety, etc. And those are taken very seriously by hospital management.

 

[Steve]

No accusations here, Steve - I think this will sound harsh, but is an actual question, not rhetorical. Where are you getting the “correct” definition?

From the EEOC.

 

[jobo]

My opinion doesn't matter because of my race. How is that not racist?


This is entirely different. You're not my trainer. You're an equal on this forum. You think you're "training" me because you think you're right. I also think I'm training you, because I think I'm right. Neither of us has the power to enforce our opinion on the other. That's why it goes into the second part - stronger training for people who are in violation, and then firing them.

If a moderator had told me "you must post in ways that are in line with @Steve 's views or you will be banned", that would be the way to get me to think like you (or leave this forum). All that monitoring and statistics doesn't do anything if it


If you gather general statistics, you have identified the problem. If you identify problem doctors and correct their behavior on penalty of termination, you will solve the problem.


Then it should be faster to move through the rest of the steps.


Makes racist comments, shows an obvious conscious bias towards blacks. An investigation would show this, by talking to the nursing staff. Contrary to what shows like The Resident would have you believe, hospitals have procedures in place to address patient safety issues. I work at a hospital. We have annual training every year on how to detect and report issues of discrimination on race, patient safety, etc. And those are taken very seriously by hospital management.

so now your complaining about people personalising the debate by saying your opinion isnt valid because........

much as i told you about a couple of days ago

but then you go onto do the same by implying others are racist for disagreeing with you,,, again

cant we just agree that no one in this discussion is a racist and deal with the actual issue ?

 

[Steve]

No accusations here, Steve - I think this will sound harsh, but is an actual question, not rhetorical. Where are you getting the “correct” definition?

And that's not harsh at all. I am guessing you have something else in mind?

 

[Steve]

My opinion doesn't matter because of my race. How is that not racist?

Err.... I sincerely believe this to be self evident. Your skin matters because, as someone who is white, in this case you are not disadvantaged by the medical system. I'm actually beginning to believe you fundamentally don't know what racism really is.

This is entirely different. You're not my trainer. You're an equal on this forum. You think you're "training" me because you think you're right. I also think I'm training you, because I think I'm right. Neither of us has the power to enforce our opinion on the other. That's why it goes into the second part - stronger training for people who are in violation, and then firing them.

You're actually further making my point. I'm not naive about trying to convince you of anything. As a person with a lot of experience in this particular area, I'm here to say that were you in a class of mine, things would be no different. In order for any kind of soft skills training to stick you need several things to be in place. Of course, a competent trainer and accurate material is important. But the student needs to be receptive to the material, meaning he or she needs to be both competent enough and self aware enough to internalize the training. AND, the student needs to take the material outside of the training and apply it. A good coach is really helpful, too. My point is, training as you suggest just isn't going to fix this issue. A lot of other things need to be in place for training to be effective in general. And for a topic like this, people have their minds made up. I guarantee you that if you were to take a formal training class on unconscious bias, it would have zero affect on your opinions and behaviors. And as I said, that's not a criticism. It's just human nature.

If a moderator had told me "you must post in ways that are in line with @Steve 's views or you will be banned", that would be the way to get me to think like you (or leave this forum). All that monitoring and statistics doesn't do anything if it doesn't get banned.

This just further reinforces my point. You are entrenched, and you are entirely unwilling to look at anything differently.

If you gather general statistics, you have identified the problem. If you identify problem doctors and correct their behavior on penalty of termination, you will solve the problem.

You don't think they know who the doctors are? Huh.

Then it should be faster to move through the rest of the steps.


Makes racist comments, shows an obvious conscious bias towards blacks. An investigation would show this, by talking to the nursing staff. Contrary to what shows like The Resident would have you believe, hospitals have procedures in place to address patient safety issues. I work at a hospital. We have annual training every year on how to detect and report issues of discrimination on race, patient safety, etc. And those are taken very seriously by hospital management.

Having been involved in investigations along these lines, let me tell you it's seldom so clean and easy. Sexual harassment investigations, hostile work environment, and discrimination complaints are always gray. I've found over the years that clear cut cases where 100% of the misconduct (whatever kind of alleged misconduct) is very rare. Most cases are a little of one person and a lot of the other... it might be 90/10 or 80/20... but it is just as often 55/45. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that investigations are ineffective or shouldn't be done. I'm just saying that your perspective is disconnected from the reality of these situations. Simply put, it is very rarely as clear cut as you make it out to be.

 

[jobo]

Err.... I sincerely believe this to be self evident. Your skin matters because, as someone who is white, in this case you are not disadvantaged by the medical system. I'm actually beginning to believe you fundamentally don't know what racism really is. You're actually further making my point. I'm not naive about trying to convince you of anything. As a person with a lot of experience in this particular area, I'm here to say that were you in a class of mine, things would be no different. In order for any kind of soft skills training to stick you need several things to be in place. Of course, a competent trainer and accurate material is important. But the student needs to be receptive to the material, meaning he or she needs to be both competent enough and self aware enough to internalize the training. AND, the student needs to take the material outside of the training and apply it. A good coach is really helpful, too. My point is, training as you suggest just isn't going to fix this issue. A lot of other things need to be in place for training to be effective in general. And for a topic like this, people have their minds made up. I guarantee you that if you were to take a formal training class on unconscious bias, it would have zero affect on your opinions and behaviors. And as I said, that's not a criticism. It's just human nature. This just further reinforces my point. You are entrenched, and you are entirely unwilling to look at anything differently. You don't think they know who the doctors are? Huh.Having been involved in investigations along these lines, let me tell you it's seldom so clean and easy. Sexual harassment investigations, hostile work environment, and discrimination complaints are always gray. I've found over the years that clear cut cases where 100% of the misconduct (whatever kind of alleged misconduct) is very rare. Most cases are a little of one person and a lot of the other... it might be 90/10 or 80/20... but it is just as often 55/45. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that investigations are ineffective or shouldn't be done. I'm just saying that your perspective is disconnected from the reality of these situations. Simply put, it is very rarely as clear cut as you make it out to be.

isnt someone who is white but cant afford insurance disadvantaged by the medical system ?

the only issue i have about your claim that there is unintentional basis, is the report that identified this may its self have included unintentional bias. thats the problem with unintentional bias, its not intended

 

[Steve]

isnt someone who is white but cant afford insurance disadvantaged by the medical system ?

the only issue i have about your claim that there is unintentional basis, is the report that identified this may its self have included unintentional bias. thats the problem with unintentional bias, its not intended

Absolutely, and that's important, but it's a different issue. Don't get me wrong. The healthcare system in American is FUBAR. We have a lot of issues that stem from unequal access to medical care. So, to answer your question directly, yes, poor white people are disadvantaged by the medical system. They just aren't disadvantaged in this way.

 

[skribs]

@Steve It doesn't matter what I say. Since I'm white, you won't listen to anything I say. Why should I listen to anything you have to say against racism if you're judging me on my race?

There's a big difference in how training is applied if the person who doesn't follow the training can get fired for noncompliance.

There's a big difference when your career is at stake.

I don't think that people who gather large numbers of statistics know who the individual players are. If there are a small enough number of individual doctors that the statisticians can learn their names, then it isn't as widespread a problem and would be relatively easy to correct.

 

[jobo]

Absolutely, and that's important, but it's a different issue. Don't get me wrong. The healthcare system in American is FUBAR. We have a lot of issues that stem from unequal access to medical care. So, to answer your question directly, yes, poor white people are disadvantaged by the medical system. They just aren't disadvantaged in this way.

were talking about a culture that isnt mine

let me run a scenario past you that im more familiar with

there are occasion spikes of '' knife'' crime in mostly London

everyone is appalled and insist the police should do something to stop it

as these crimes are mostly, but not exclusively black lads stabbing other black lads over territory disputes, the police camp out in the areas where these disputes happen and stop and search lots of youths, but as these areas are predominately black area, they stop and search mostly black youths

this tactic does seem to work, as the stabbings decease.

however this makes a lot of black youths who had no intention of stabbing anybody very unhappy and the polices attempt to stop black lads being stabbed is branded racist, so the police try and off set this accusation by going into other area and searching white lads, which is a statistically an unefficient way of doing it

and this makes the white lads unhappy and they accuse the police of racism for only searching them to balance the books and as they are from well today areas with well to do parents their dad rings the chief Constable and complains, so they stop that

and then the stabbings start again and every one insists the police should do something to stop them

 

[Steve]

@Steve It doesn't matter what I say. Since I'm white, you won't listen to anything I say. Why should I listen to anything you have to say against racism if you're judging me on my race?

Don't misunderstand my position here. I'm not suggesting you listen to me. I'm suggesting you listen to the folks who have a stake in the result. That's what I'm trying to do, as well. Remember, this entire discussion stems from a demand by POC that you brought up. It's not my demand.

There's a big difference in how training is applied if the person who doesn't follow the training can get fired for noncompliance.

This is a very common perspective of someone who has never been involved in hiring or firing or performance management. It's the kind of perspective that comes from folks who have opinions about other peoples' performance based on limited information and say things like, "Why don't they just fire that guy?" It's seldom that simple. And it gets even more complex if there's a negotiated contract involved.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From the EEOC.

Okay, that gives some context. The EEOC, being employment-focused, will have a definition that only applies to the workplace.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Why don't they just fire that guy?" It's seldom that simple. And it gets even more complex if there's a negotiated contract involved.

Boy, howdy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And that's not harsh at all. I am guessing you have something else in mind?

I was just thinking that there are likely several "correct" definitions, depending on context.

 

[Steve]

I was just thinking that there are likely several "correct" definitions, depending on context.

It's one of those things where it is a legal term that has become used more generally.

I would welcome learning about other correct definitions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's one of those things where it is a legal term that has become used more generally.

I would welcome learning about other correct definitions.

The only variations I'm aware of include both work and school environments (to cover students), or are the older (less used now, from what I've seen) version that's solely based on one person having power over the other (which would most often be one of those two environments, I'd think).

It was just a pondering, more than a point.