No schools close, what about videos?

[John Bishop]

Same calibre player?

Yep, gotta be a fair experiment.

Does the team get to practice together like the one being coached?

Sure, just like video martial artists can practice on their neighbors, little sisters, etc.

Are they veteran football players or are they all newbe's?

All newbies. Again the experiment is to compare the results of video teaching/coaching vs live instruction.

Is the video instruction by the same coach coaching the team live?

Yes. That way no one can claim the outcome was influenced by a superior coach vs a inferior coach.

I would love to see this experiment I think it would be great!

 

[John Bishop]

Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?

 

[RichK]

Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?

Mike Tyson??????

 

[Danjo]

Yeah, I think it would have to be the same coach on the video. Of course, that would mean the people who were training live would have the coach looking at him going, "Hey, this is the mistake you just made. Here's how to do it right." Whereas the people watching on video might be making totally different mistakes and not getting the correction because there was no coach to watch them.

Video training can try to anticipate the majority of mistakes that everyone makes, but it can't predict all of the individual mistakes that one can make when doing a technique. Thus, if one happens to make one of those mistakes that aren't covered in the video (and we all do that) it won't be corrected. Also, if one tries to implement a technique incorrectly from watching a video and it thus doesn't work, the video student may simply conclude that the techinque doesn't work, rather than that they're doing it wrong. Hell, even if they conclude that they are doing it wrong, they won't know how to correct it and make it work if the video doesn't happen to cover that angle etc. Video training is like painting with a big brush as opposed to a small brush. Broad brushes are great for painting houses, or fences, but they are not too good for rendering drops of water on a grape. In other words, you can only go so far with it.

 

[Danjo]

Mike Tyson??????

Ummm...you're either joking or are referring to the fact that Tyson used footage of old boxers as a supplement to his actual live training. On second thought, you must be joking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?

Let me think..... well it could be.... then agian maybe him...... then there was that guy.... AHA I GOT IT!!!!!


no

 

[Xue Sheng]

I like this football experiment.

Do they get the weight training by video too, while the others have a coach?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?

It should be noted that many of the most famous MMA fighters of today admitted that they STARTED by watching videos only when there was no instructor available.

Pat Miletich and Bas Rutten come to mind as two very successful guys who openly stated this. Bas Rutten mentions that he had no ground experience at all but would watch videos and read books and then work on the moves with a friend when he was competing in pancrase to learn how to deal with the grapplers. Bas Rutten was quite successful at this before deciding to seek some level of formal instruction.

So there is something to this video training when nothing else is available. It's kind of strange question to ask if there is a tape trained champ of a professional endeavor. If your a champ that means you have sponsors, which equals money for and access to instruction. How about guys that are professional now who had success early before they had qualified instruction. Again many MMA fighters have stated in interviews that they initially learned their ground game from tapes before they could get sponsored or afford high quality instruction. Makes ya wonder.

 

[Danjo]

It should be noted that many of the most famous MMA fighters of today admitted that they STARTED by watching videos only when there was no instructor available.

Pat Miletich and Bas Rutten come to mind as two very successful guys who openly stated this. Bas Rutten mentions that he had no ground experience at all but would watch videos and read books and then work on the moves with a friend when he was competing in pancrase to learn how to deal with the grapplers. Bas Rutten was quite successful at this before deciding to seek some level of formal instruction.

So there is something to this video training when nothing else is available. It's kind of strange question to ask if there is a tape trained champ of a professional endeavor. If your a champ that means you have sponsors, which equals money for and access to instruction. How about guys that are professional now who had success early before they had qualified instruction. Again many MMA fighters have stated in interviews that they initially learned their ground game from tapes before they could get sponsored or afford high quality instruction. Makes ya wonder.

Yes, but you're making the "anything is better than nothing" argument. I think that the real point here is that one should try to get decent live instruction if possible and that video training is no substitute for it. Also, there are other numerous problems with video training that come to mind such as developing bad habits.

If you learn a take-down, for instance, and make it work passibly well against your friends in the backyard, and you practice it that way for months or longer the way you learned it will become ingrained in your nervous system. Now, let's say you finally do get to a point where you can get live instruction and you find out that you're doing it wrong and that the right way works much much better than how you've been doing it. You now have to un-learn the old way and learn the new way. Now, how many of the techniques that you learned off of video are like that? How much time and energy was wasted in learning it wrong? How much agonizing re-learning will need to take place once you start training live?

Now, here's another scenario. Let's say that your options are 1) Train live with a qualified Hapkido instructor, or 2) Video train Kenpo in your backyard with friends. Which do you think is the better choice?

It seems if video was good enough, then Rutten etc. wouldn't have sought out live training later when they could. I wonder if they had to un-learn anything when they started getting live training?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yes, but you're making the "anything is better than nothing" argument. I think that the real point here is that one should try to get decent live instruction if possible and that video training is no substitute for it. Also, there are other numerous problems with video training that come to mind such as developing bad habits.

If you learn a take-down, for instance, and make it work passibly well against your friends in the backyard, and you practice it that way for months or longer the way you learned it will become ingrained in your nervous system. Now, let's say you finally do get to a point where you can get live instruction and you find out that you're doing it wrong and that the right way works much much better than how you've been doing it. You now have to un-learn the old way and learn the new way. Now, how many of the techniques that you learned off of video are like that? How much time and energy was wasted in learning it wrong? How much agonizing re-learning will need to take place once you start training live?

Now, here's another scenario. Let's say that your options are 1) Train live with a qualified Hapkido instructor, or 2) Video train Kenpo in your backyard with friends. Which do you think is the better choice?

It seems if video was good enough, then Rutten etc. wouldn't have sought out live training later when they could. I wonder if they had to un-learn anything when they started getting live training?

You're absolutely right, I do lean towards the anything is better than nothing side. I prefer real live instruction. But a tape can teach alot too or a book for that matter otherwise schools wouldn't require tapes and books to the extent that they do. They serve their purpose, to convey information it is the individuals job to absorb the information just like in a college classroom. The professor provides the information, the student absorbs what he can and uses various means to help out such as tapes, books, internet, other professors, tutors, office hours, etc. Minor point though. If your doing something and it works is it really wrong? or is there just a better way? there's a HUGE difference between effective and MOST effective. Also the original premise of the thread was the stated fact that NO schools are available how about video in the mean time. Not let's choose video over a live instructor.

True story. As a 1st Brown in kenpo I looked in the infinite insights to Kenpo and saw that Mr. Parker wrote that a student should know "Form 5". At the school I was at I wouldn't learn that form until 2nd Black. So I went home that night and taught myself Form 5 out of the book with no pictures and having never seen the form before. I came to class the next day and told my instructor I wanted to show him form 5. he said sure thinking I meant a piece of it. When I showed him the whole thing he was amazed that I could do the whole form especially after only one night of work. He spent the next 2 weeks cleaning errors in transitions and explaining why the transitions were that way. I learned so much more from having learned something incorrectly and then having corrected than I would have just learning the correct way. Sometimes there is just as much to learn in experiencing how not to do something as there is in learning how to do it. And I was also VERY close to having an accurate form from a book, imagine if I could have SEEN what the form looked like in a video and then APPLIED with some friends. Though not perfect it would have at least been effective. And effectiveness is what really matters in some cases, not professional grade skill or perfect form.

 

[Danjo]

You're absolutely right, I do lean towards the anything is better than nothing side. I prefer real live instruction. But a tape can teach alot too or a book for that matter otherwise schools wouldn't require tapes and books to the extent that they do. They serve their purpose, to convey information it is the individuals job to absorb the information just like in a college classroom. The professor provides the information, the student absorbs what he can and uses various means to help out such as tapes, books, internet, other professors, tutors, office hours, etc. Minor point though. If your doing something and it works is it really wrong? or is there just a better way? there's a HUGE difference between effective and MOST effective. Also the original premise of the thread was the stated fact that NO schools are available how about video in the mean time. Not let's choose video over a live instructor.

True story. As a 1st Brown in kenpo I looked in the infinite insights to Kenpo and saw that Mr. Parker wrote that a student should know "Form 5". At the school I was at I wouldn't learn that form until 2nd Black. So I went home that night and taught myself Form 5 out of the book with no pictures and having never seen the form before. I came to class the next day and told my instructor I wanted to show him form 5. he said sure thinking I meant a piece of it. When I showed him the whole thing he was amazed that I could do the whole form especially after only one night of work. He spent the next 2 weeks cleaning errors in transitions and explaining why the transitions were that way. I learned so much more from having learned something incorrectly and then having corrected than I would have just learning the correct way. Sometimes there is just as much to learn in experiencing how not to do something as there is in learning how to do it. And I was also VERY close to having an accurate form from a book, imagine if I could have SEEN what the form looked like in a video and then APPLIED with some friends. Though not perfect it would have at least been effective. And effectiveness is what really matters in some cases, not professional grade skill or perfect form.

Well, first off, I think you're the exception to the rule. And from the comments that Doc has made about you, I think he thinks so too. Which means that most people won't be able to do what you did. Also, forms are not fighting.

Next. The original poster said this in his second post: "the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type). "

It doesn't sound as if video training is his only option.

Third, you learned from a book and then the next day started getting correction on your form. Not months or years later when the wrong way was fully ingrained into your nervous system. If that had been the case, I doubt that your experince would have been as productive.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well, first off, I think you're the exception to the rule. And from the comments that Doc has made about you, I think he thinks so too. Which means that most people won't be able to do what you did. Also, forms are not fighting.

Next. The original poster said this in his second post: "the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type). "

It doesn't sound as if video training is his only option.

Third, you learned from a book and then the next day started getting correction on your form. Not months or years later when the wrong way was fully ingrained into your nervous system. If that had been the case, I doubt that your experince would have been as productive.

D***, you got me

and I agree on the time frame, I'm still unlearning things from 98' and some things from as early as 86'

 

[IWishToLearn]

How'd you manage to whack yourself in the balls????

Easy - tried an under the leg spin from behind me to the front - unfortunately my angle was off by quite a bit. We got a great laugh outta it later.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Easy - tried an under the leg spin from behind me to the front - unfortunately my angle was off by quite a bit. We got a great laugh outta it later.

Nah your angle wasn't off, your...eh...package is just too big for that maneuver. Tailoring man, tailoring! LOL

 

[Josh Oakley]

Note to self: wear cup when practicing back-to-front spin under the leg.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Note to self: wear cup when practicing back-to-front spin under the leg.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

 

[IWishToLearn]

Heh. What's worse was when I tried using the 3 sectional staff. I had that sucker going great, got cocky & tried spinning it in reverse only to lose control of one of the outer sections as I switched hands and nearly kayoed myself when it hit me in the forehead going full tilt boogie. That's an interesting experience. I think I'd rather have Doc tap me on the cheek again.

 

[RichK]

WOW!!! 3-sectional staff, thanks that brought back some bad memories. I remember one time I had ahold of the middle section with the ends spinning and by physics they started closing in on me. So what do you do when you have two large sticks spinning at you by yourself out of control? All I could say was "ouch" THUD!!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

3 section staff…. Good times…god times…. Or maybe not

I took my glasses of my face with those once, training in my backyard at night. I stopped and waited for the inevitable thud of the glasses hitting the ground… I waited and waited and waited but I heard nothing. Just as I gave up and figured I would have to look in the morning I heard them hit the grass, those things must have been launched rather high.

Also I guy I knew that was very good with the 3 section and during a demo in a park in front of a whole lot of people, using the real wooden 3 section staff, not the padded one. He clocked himself in the back of the head and as he said. “All I remember is doing the forms and then trying to figure out why I was laying face down on the ground”

 

[Josh Oakley]

Note to self: avoid 3-sectional staff as long as possible. and wear a cup whenever being within 4 feet of one. Even if it's just on a rack in the shop.