No legs rule

[Gruenewald]

Yeah, you are wrong.

That second set of images can also be found here, in a listing of the OFficial 67 throws of Kodokan judo-with the names.Any beginner should recognize sukuinage, for instance.

Hehe sorry, misspelled it (seoi-nage > sukuinage... now I feel dumb). Running on little sleep atm, fixed. Why is there no drop at the end, I've never learned sukuinage remaining standing. Doesn't that make it a different technique somehow since there is no drop/sacrifice?

Leg grabbing throws are called ashi dori waza-and, under the new rules they're simply not permitted as initial attacks. You can still use them to counter, and you can still use them to follow up from an initial attack.

Thanks, and do you happen to know if there's a limit to how long you can hold the leg, or is it just as long as contact remains between the two people (chest to chest, or side to side, whatever it may be)?

 

[elder999]

Hehe sorry, misspelled it (seoi-nage > sukuinage). Running on little sleep atm, fixed.

I didn't think so. I think you just got your names confused-there are, after all, Ippon seoi-nage (一本 背負&#25237 ,(Morote) seoi-nage(背負い投&#12370 in judo, and, confusingly, Danzan ryu jujutsu has a Seoi goshi that is pretty much judo's seoi-nage, and a seoi-nage that is actually Ippon seoi-nage, the one-armed shoulder throw.

. Why is there no drop at the end, I've never learned sukuinage remaining standing. Doesn't that make it a different technique somehow since there is no drop/sacrifice?

Because sukuinage isn't a sutemi-waza, though it can be practiced this way, and probably would have been in armor, and often is in sumo-since they're so heavy......

Thanks, and do you happen to know if there's a limit to how long you can hold the leg, or is it just as long as contact remains between the two people (chest to chest, or side to side, whatever it may be)?

A pretty good explanation of the amendment can be found here.

 

[Gruenewald]

I didn't think so. I think you just got your names confused-there are, after all, Ippon seoi-nage (一本 背負&#25237 ,(Morote) seoi-nage(背負い投&#12370 in judo, and, confusingly, Danzan ryu jujutsu has a Seoi goshi that is pretty much judo's seoi-nage, and a seoi-nage that is actually Ippon seoi-nage, the one-armed shoulder throw.

At my dojo ippon seoi-nage and morote seoi-nage are often referred to as simply "seoi-nage" in passing, and to be completely honest I haven't often seen many of the techniques spelled (although I intend to rectify that immediately) so I had no idea how to spell sukuinage. Typed some kind of equivalent spelling into Google and let it correct it for me, then completely blanked on the fact that I was typing seoi-nage as in ippon or morote seoi-nage; won't be making that mistake again. =)

Thanks for the link.

 

[lklawson]

From my understanding the idea is to "turn judo back into judo", because so much wrestling was being done. A lot of singles/doubles and leg picks are not a part of traditional judo technique, more like supplemental techniques brought into judo in modern times because they are in fact so effective and there was nothing prohibiting people to do so as far as rules are concerned. Being a wrestler, I didn't mind at all, haha.

Sorry, but wrong about that too. Check out some of the early judo manuals. Lots of "wrestling" in them.

Good sources include the early British Judo club, Tani & Unenishi material, and the Allanson-Winn material.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gruenewald]

Sorry, but wrong about that too. Check out some of the early judo manuals. Lots of "wrestling" in them.

Good sources include the early British Judo club, Tani & Unenishi material, and the Allanson-Winn material.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thanks, didn't know that.

 

[lklawson]

Thanks, didn't know that.

Lots of stuff in old Judo that isn't done now. Yamanaka's "Jiu-Jutsu or Jiu-do" includes a leg lock, for instance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[elder999]

Lots of stuff in old Judo that isn't done now. Yamanaka's "Jiu-Jutsu or Jiu-do" includes a leg lock, for instance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Lots of stuff in Judo that isn't done in Olympic Judo, or competitive Judo, sport Judo, whatever you want to call it. There are Judo teachers all over the world who "do that old stuff..." :lol:

 

[lklawson]

Lots of stuff in Judo that isn't done in Olympic Judo, or competitive Judo, sport Judo, whatever you want to call it. There are Judo teachers all over the world who "do that old stuff..." :lol:

Indeed. The trick is to actually FIND them.

Leg locks are pretty well documented as being part of the historic Judo curriculum. But when was the last you you actually found anybody teaching them as part of Judo? Seems like, even when someone is teaching them, it's often "they do this in Sambo" or some such.

At a guess, maybe 1 in 200 Judo Sensei teach leg locks.

And what about Judo's traditional Atemi Waza? I've seen it taught... as part of Kata.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[elder999]

Indeed. The trick is to actually FIND them.

Leg locks are pretty well documented as being part of the historic Judo curriculum. But when was the last you you actually found anybody teaching them as part of Judo? Seems like, even when someone is teaching them, it's often "they do this in Sambo" or some such.

At a guess, maybe 1 in 200 Judo Sensei teach leg locks.

And what about Judo's traditional Atemi Waza? I've seen it taught... as part of Kata.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Willin' to bet it's more like 1 in 50, and even more common in Russia, New York, Chicago,Hawaii and a few other places.....

 

[lklawson]

Willin' to bet it's more like 1 in 50

So, you're guess is that about 2% teach what used to be standard curricula?



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[bignick]

Rules are what they are and if you want to compete it's not a whole lot of use griping about them. If you want to use these techniques, set them up as part of a combination/continuation of technique and you're just fine within the rules.

Of course, you're gambling that a ref agrees with you about it being a real counter or combination and you don't get a hansoku make off the bat. I completely agree that this is to stifle BJJ players or wrestlers from coming in and immediately trying to turn a judo match into a ground grappling game.

Things change, right now this is the rule and I don't it will stick around. That being said, we have to keep in mind the progressive origins of judo and who's to say what Kano would have wanted or not wanted in his art a 100+ years down the road, he was certainly not averse to trying new things or getting rid of things that no longer seemed to work.

 

[Tiberius]

So one has to keep track now of what he cant use in a tournament, although its being taught in class.

 

[Tez3]

So one has to keep track now of what he cant use in a tournament, although its being taught in class.

That happens all the time if you do martial arts, you learn techniques that kill and maim but usually don't actually use them in training.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes I know, but you would think that goes for some lethal stuff you dont learn untill past your black belt.

 

[bignick]

Yes I know, but you would think that goes for some lethal stuff you dont learn untill past your black belt.

Any judo throw done strongly, to someone without good falling skills, on hard ground or concrete becomes a potentially lethal technique. In that case, white belts are learning "lethal stuff" in their first few classes. The same goes for many martial arts and techniques.

The reality is that any art has techniques you don't do in friendly company. The leg rule is silly to me, but not that big of a deal. I highly doubt it affects the great majority of judoka on a day to day basis in their training.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Moves you can practice with a partner are worthless to learn.
Just my two cents.
Sean

 

[Bruno@MT]

Moves you can practice as intended with a partner are worthless to learn.
Just my two cents.
Sean

Fixed that for you

I cannot speak for Judo, but in traditional Japanese jujutsu or ninpo, there are plenty of throws that are designed for making you land on your head without a chance to break your fall. gan seki nage for example.

You can't really practice this throw as intended with a partner because said partner will break his neck. However, you can practice it by performing the throw at less than full speed and letting him land gently.

 

[elder999]

I cannot speak for Judo, but in traditional Japanese jujutsu or ninpo, there are plenty of throws that are designed for making you land on your head without a chance to break your fall. gan seki nage for example..

This is also true for a great deal of Judo-some would argue all of Judo's throws have this intention, with only a slight modification.......of course, like a lot of other things, one doesn't find this taught in most dojo.