Rant: USAT 14-17 bb div sparring rules

[terryl965]

Yes you are right those are the rule but the reles simply puts suck and we all know that, please must 14 year olds do not have a chance no matter how good they sre they just do not have the season training as a 17 and they simply cannot compihend eveything a 17 year can. Rules are a juncture that the WTF and USAT has put together for the sake of keeping the upper the only one that could make the team and we all know this.

 

[Laurentkd]

Yes you are right those are the rule but the reles simply puts suck and we all know that, please must 14 year olds do not have a chance no matter how good they sre they just do not have the season training as a 17 and they simply cannot compihend eveything a 17 year can. Rules are a juncture that the WTF and USAT has put together for the sake of keeping the upper the only one that could make the team and we all know this.

Do you have any suggestions of what we could do about sir? Is there any letters we could write or anything? It just continues to blow my mind that this is the set up. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[mango.man]

Actually if you turn 18 in the calender year you must fight in the senior group...

That is what I said, if you turn 18 on Jan 1 2008 you could potentially fight a 13 year old that turns 14 on Dec 31 2007 at JOs in 2007

 

[wade]

Lauren, there is an option. Don't go. No one is making the younger player go to these USAT events. That is the option. You will find that the younger players who do goes to these events have every intention of winning said events. This is what makes them players and it is their option too. Back when they first started using electronic scoring I had a 14 year old BB, Sally Lofland, in Colorado Springs, who lost in the JR Black Belt division but then medaled in the senior black belt division in sparring. A couple years later I had two sisters, Melani and Tahira Harris both went and competed in the Senior Nationals, once again in Colorado Springs. The younger one, Tahira, 11 years old won a bronze and her older sister, 14 year old Melani, won a silver in her division, losing the gold medal match by only 1 point. Heart, ability and training can over come an age difference. Terry, I've seen many younger players over come older players. Being older doesn't necessarily mean better, it just means older. Once more, remember, your player does not have to go! They can find a place to play that is more to their level, IE: not so dangerous. But, do you think the Steve Lopez, Herb Perez or Dana Hee would have won Gold in the Olympics by playing it safe? I think not!

 

[terryl965]

Lauren, there is an option. Don't go. No one is making the younger player go to these USAT events. That is the option. You will find that the younger players who do goes to these events have every intention of winning said events. This is what makes them players and it is their option too. Back when they first started using electronic scoring I had a 14 year old BB, Sally Lofland, in Colorado Springs, who lost in the JR Black Belt division but then medaled in the senior black belt division in sparring. A couple years later I had two sisters, Melani and Tahira Harris both went and competed in the Senior Nationals, once again in Colorado Springs. The younger one, Tahira, 11 years old won a bronze and her older sister, 14 year old Melani, won a silver in her division, losing the gold medal match by only 1 point. Heart, ability and training can over come an age difference. Terry, I've seen many younger players over come older players. Being older doesn't necessarily mean better, it just means older. Once more, remember, your player does not have to go! They can find a place to play that is more to their level, IE: not so dangerous. But, do you think the Steve Lopez, Herb Perez or Dana Hee would have won Gold in the Olympics by playing it safe? I think not!

Wade and other I alwaysgo and my player compete with the rules they have in place, no where did I say we do not go and play by the rules, what I said was I personnally do not likethe rules. My son plays by those rules for that is the way to the Olympics and the only way we train with those rules in place.

Yes I seen some very talented young players as well but for everyone player there are thousands more that have to play in the game that drives them away because they are not mentally orphysically big enought o compete with that age group maybe have two different ways for those not quitw reasy to have an even playing field and maybe one day they may catch up to the rest.

 

[bluekey88]

True, there are TONS of players who just aren't going to make it to the Olympics. Most simpl.y don't have the ability. Another subset have the ability but simply won't get lucky. However, I still think the current rules aren't equitable. Again, this situation came to my awareness because of my son...he's not olympic material but he's got some talent that he wants to develop as far as he can. He went to nationals last year and put on the performance of his life, he didn't medal, but he was able to hang with the big boys. He won't be able to do that this year (at least in San Jose) and that sucks.

But let's forget about my son for a sec...he's not destined for TKD greatnessa t this point, no doubt. I can think of 5 players from my school that have similar stories. All of them medaled at Nationals in sparring (2 gold, 2 silver and a bronze) under Junior safety rules. Most at the Red or Black belt levels. They are very talented young people. In every case, they stopped competing at 14. Two of them fought under full contact rules, got slaughtered in the ring (fighting older, more experienced opponents)...the others quit becuase they didn't want to get slaughtered. All of these players have skads of talent...with development maybe potnetial to fight at the national level...but we won't know. More personally, after retiring from competition, their particiation in TKD started to wane. Our school essentially lost 5 potential young coaches, mentors, instructors.

I realize this was not just becuase of competions...they are adolescents after all. Other interests were certainly a factor as well. However, I really have to wonder if there wasn't such a big step in the process of going up to the higher levels of contact if one or two of these kids would've stuck with it. I also wonder how many other potentially great athletes are lost becuase of this. It's like athletes are climbing stairs with 12" steps then right at the top, there is this huge step that is out of proportion to the other steps. I don't think breaking the division down to the same age breaks as the other divisions would be such a bad thing. It might lead to more athlete development and more top level athletes in the long run.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Laurentkd]

Yes I seen some very talented young players as well but for everyone player there are thousands more that have to play in the game that drives them away because they are not mentally orphysically big enought o compete with that age group maybe have two different ways for those not quitw reasy to have an even playing field and maybe one day they may catch up to the rest.

These are the ones I worry about. Do you think we lose a lot of good competitors because they turn 14 and don't want to compete against 18 year olds and so they stop competing? You could always say you'll go back once you are 16, but even if you did compete at other tournaments during that time, I would think you would have a hard time returning to that level of competition after being out for a couple years.

 

[Tez3]

I've been following this discussion with great interest although I'm nothing to do with TKD. I don't know how hard you go when you are in a competition, do you have knock outs? Coming from an MMA background I admit I'm rather horrified at 14year old boys fighting 17 nearly 18year olds. We rarely let 14yr olds compete in MMA, they do grappling or BJJ at first, then at about 16 they can compete in amateur junior bouts (no head shots) against boys of the same age and experience. At 18 they can do professional rules. 14 yr olds in MMA would simply not be matched against a 17yr because of the strength and experience difference, even if they were the same weight.
Do you have weight categories or is it just BB v BB?
Telling 14yr olds to just get on with it sounds very harsh and very off putting. I notice Wade quotes females who had won over older opponents but I don't think the age difference is such a factor with females.

 

[mango.man]

Tez,

Sr rules allow for full contact, including knock outs. Sr rules will be used for all BB 14 +. Jr safety rules will apply to 8-11 BB and 12-13 all color belts. JSR allow for light head/face contact with complete control and no injury being delivered. 6-7 BB and 6-11 color belts are no head/face contact at all.

All ages are based on what age you will become in 2007 not necessarily your age on the date of competition.

Divisions are determined by age, weight and belt.

Full rules (including weight divisions) can be found at http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/2007PORTLANDNATIONALQUALIFIER030507.pdf in particular page 21 and beyond.

 

[Tez3]

Tez,

Sr rules allow for full contact, including knock outs. Sr rules will be used for all BB 14 +. Jr safety rules will apply to 8-11 BB and 12-13 all color belts. JSR allow for light head/face contact with complete control and no injury being delivered. 6-7 BB and 6-11 color belts are no head/face contact at all.

All ages are based on what age you will become in 2007 not necessarily your age on the date of competition.

Divisions are determined by age, weight and belt.

Full rules (including weight divisions) can be found at http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/2007PORTLANDNATIONALQUALIFIER030507.pdf in particular page 21 and beyond.

Mmmm I can understand the concern about 14yrs fighting older people.I have to add I'm so not in favour of full contact KO rules for under 18s! We fight full contact but wouldn't allow under 18yrs to fight with headshots allowing KOs. Even a 50kg 17yr old is going to be stronger than a 50kg 14yr old. Doesn't the KO bit worry anyone else or doesn't it happen very often? ( I get KOd probably every couple of months so I don't mind for myself, hate liver shots though)

 

[Laurentkd]

Mmmm I can understand the concern about 14yrs fighting older people.I have to add I'm so not in favour of full contact KO rules for under 18s! We fight full contact but wouldn't allow under 18yrs to fight with headshots allowing KOs. Even a 50kg 17yr old is going to be stronger than a 50kg 14yr old. Doesn't the KO bit worry anyone else or doesn't it happen very often? ( I get KOd probably every couple of months so I don't mind for myself, hate liver shots though)

looks like you understand our situation (and our concern) exactly.

 

[Gemini]

My oldest is thirteen and will not be competing in the 14-17 age bracket. No, I don't think it's fair to open that bracket up that wide, and I know of very few 14 year olds that can compete at that level, but there are some. My son is not among them. He's good, but not great. I will not allow him to compete, not because I'm afraid he'll loose, but because I'm afraid he may suffer real damage. Both physically and mentally. We'll continue to train and when he's ready, he'll return. The purpose of competition is to build experience and confidence. Not tear it down.

 

[Tez3]

My oldest is thirteen and will not be competing in the 14-17 age bracket. No, I don't think it's fair to open that bracket up that wide, and I know of very few 14 year olds that can compete at that level, but there are some. My son is not among them. He's good, but not great. I will not allow him to compete, not because I'm afraid he'll loose, but because I'm afraid he may suffer real damage. Both physically and mentally. We'll continue to train and when he's ready, he'll return. The purpose of competition is to build experience and confidence. Not tear it down.

How many people feel this way? Are there enough to try and get things changed? To be honest I'm quite shocked, I'm used to defending MMA against accusations that it is barbaric etc but we've never put children in to fight young men! I don't know many sports contact or not that would do that. I have done some TKD, couldn't keep it up as I live in a rural area and when the instructor left the club closed. I never competed so haven't any idea on how comps are run. I have competed in full contact karate though and junior classes were very narrowly banded for age.
We have an 18 year old pro MMA fighter in our club and there is no way on this planet would he fight one of the 14years olds who, in our club, are still in the juniour class, however good the 14 year old. David our fighter is well muscled and strong although a featherweight, it's ludicrous to think that a few months ago he could have fought what is basically a child of 14!

 

[mango.man]

http://www.wtf.org/site/wtf/contact.htm is the contact information for the World Taekwondo Federation, if you would like to express your displeasure to those that make the rules.

 

[mango.man]

I just wanted to point out to the original poster that USAT I just read the Junior Safety Rules and 14-17 BB will still be using Jr Safety Rules in the Elite Division at Nationals. So you can send your son to fight elite at nationals with reduced risk of injury. Keep in mind though that if he wins gold he will be given the opportunity to fight world class in the same division the next day. That would be up to you as it would involve playing by Sr rules.

JSRs are at http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/JuniorSafetyRules.pdf

I thought this was the case but did not have time enough to look it up earlier. I saw today that they posted a link on the home page to the JSRs and sure enough, there it is in black and white.

 

[bluekey88]

Mangoman - Thanks for the update. That's actually good to know. I'll have to let the other coaches know about this on our team.

Unfortunately, due to unforeseen financial circumstances, me and mine will not be going to any of the natioanls (USAT or AAU) this year.

It is heartening to hear that there will safer circumstances for competition this year.

Peace,
Erik