Ninjutsu?

[Hudson69]

How many different forms of "ninjutsu" are out there now. I have a "Nidan" in Kenpo Taijutsu, a "made up art." The background is predominantly Kenpo Karate (EPAK) and Budo Taijutsu but has Army Combatives, Police Defensive Tactics and some Wun Hop Kuen Do, Hapkido and AF PART thrown in just to make it wierder. My instructor could have decided to call it Kenpo Ninjutsu or Bill's Ninjutsu but he didn't the training group voted and we decided to call it Kenpo Taijutsu because it uses almost all of the Kenpo techniques (up to and including 1st brown with slight modifications to some), up to where they begin to repeat with additions, some of the stances, the strikes, the kicks, blocks and parries. It also uses some of the kata, most of the weapons and some more. From Budo Taijutsu it borrows the rolls and breakfalls (taihenjutsu), the throws (nage waza), the escape techniques (hajutsu kuho), the reversals (gyaku waza) and the concepts as well as the Kihon happo and the Sanchin. From DT and Army Combatives it gets most of its field craft and directness as well as some control techniques and the Hapkido provides a great amount of kicking assets. We train a lot with guns at higher levels and so the Police training is borrowed for the handgun and shotgun while the Army is used for long guns as well as how to move/operate safely/tactically in an urban (again Mil/LE) or rural (Mil/LE). Let me state that this decision did not come about overnight it came from the fact that the training group was together to learn/study Budo Taijutsu but because there were several of us who had a Kenpo background and a military/law enforcement background we felt that Budo Taijutsu was not a practical system to learn for self defense or for a "modern warrior" unless you got up to your 5th kyu or sometimes higher, for people who knew the techniques but not the mind set to apply them in a common self defense situation.

I would like to add that in three Budo Taijutsu schools I have studied at (I have been in the military and when I get reassigned I try to find a school) only one has ever practiced a form of sparring, the first and oldest that billed itself as "ninjutsu" and predated Budo Taijutsu. This is one of the issues we have had with the BT system in addition to the use of swords, naginatas, blinding powder (though we teach students how to use pepper-sprays).

Based on the above are there any other schools out there that have broken off of ninjutsu/budo taijutsu/ninpo bujie or still affiliate themselves with the parent organization but have "modernized?" Our Kenpo Taijutsu does not advertise the ninjutsu angle but we dont deny a big portion of our supplementary skills come from there.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

we felt that Budo Taijutsu was not a practical system to learn for self defense or for a "modern warrior" unless you got up to your 5th kyu or sometimes higher, for people who knew the techniques but not the mind set to apply them in a common self defense situation.

Then why do you:

but we dont deny a big portion of our supplementary skills come from there.

5th kyu is not very high Shodan can be seen as a beginner.

Couldn't we say this same thing about any art in which the student has only been in for a couple of months?

 

[Raynac]

In addition to To-Shin Do striking and grappling arts,
Dotoshi Varnum's teaching specialties include
survival in hostile environments, firearms, and archery

Have you considered To-Shin-Do? I believe Steven Hayzes idea behind creating it was to modernize ninjutsu was it not? Brett Varnum was my teacher's teacher, he seems to have some skills that may be inline with what your doing... of course his dojo is in maine so that might be a problem... anyways you should consider it at least.

 

[Aiki Lee]

its a shame there is no Jizaikan dojo in your area.

 

[Hudson69]

Thanks everyone for the information on the additional "ninjutsu" and formerly known as ninjutsu schools out there but we are pretty happy with "Kenpo Taijutsu" and have the skills requirements, levels, weapons, and the other satellite areas that we think should be found at a school of martial arts. Although we do have someone who made it up through the 4th level of To Shin Do (Eyes of the Storm?) through the DVD's and he said that it was pretty good for a home study course. I would like to know more about the Jizaikan ninjutsu though, it sounds interesting. If any of you are in the Colorado Springs Area, barring deployments, drop a line and come train and we can swap ideas.

 

[Raynac]

we do have someone who made it up through the 4th level of To Shin Do (Eyes of the Storm?) through the DVD's and he said that it was pretty good for a home study course.

ah so hes a green belt... hmmm I've never seen anyone whos done the training by the home videos, It would be neat to talk to him about it.

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well as long as your happy with your training and feel that you're benefitting from it I'd say keep up the training.

 

[bydand]

Have you considered To-Shin-Do? I believe Steven Hayzes idea behind creating it was to modernize ninjutsu was it not? Brett Varnum was my teacher's teacher, he seems to have some skills that may be inline with what your doing... of course his dojo is in maine so that might be a problem... anyways you should consider it at least.

Brett kicks butt! You must be training under Ed? Brett has matured in the art and life a LOT over the many years I have know him. He is one of my favorite people to train with and to talk to in general. A heart as big as he is and skilled to boot, great combination for an Instructor and role model.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I would like to know more about the Jizaikan ninjutsu though, it sounds interesting.

Oh sure, the Jizaikan is an organization founded by Tom Maienza. He trained in the Bujikan, headed Stephen Hayes Quest Centers for a while, but he didn't like the way either organization was structured so he left to form his own organization. He also recieved 7th degree blackbelts in Daito Ryu and Kyu Shin Ryu aikijujutsu. Plus he did a buch more other training and was ranked in other arts too. He took the lessons he found in aikijujutsu and ninjutsu and combined them into aiki ninjutsu. It really is brillian in my not baiased in anyway opinion. (0:

If you like to know more you can look up Maienza's training videos on myspace; just type jizaikan myspace videos into google. or you can go to

www.thewarriorsedge.com

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh sure, the Jizaikan is an organization founded by Tom Maienza. He trained in the Bujikan, headed Stephen Hayes Quest Centers for a while, but he didn't like the way either organization was structured so he left to form his own organization.

Hmm. I'm curious what about the structure he disagreed with. I don't know about Toshindo, so I won't comment on that, but from having trained at numerous Bujinkan schools, the only thing "common" they have (other than technique of course) is that after 4th Dan you have to rank in Japan, and you need Shidoshi-Kai to "officially" teach. Structure is up to the instructor to decide. One school's "structure" may be curriculum based, anothers based on the yearly theme... still another my be based on what the teacher feels like teaching at the time. I assume he was high enough rank to actually teach his people, and since the structure would have been pretty much up to him, I'd be interested to know what made him form his own style. (and again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, its a subject I have been interested in lately, what makes schools branch off, and the precedents for granting yourself "mastership" and whatnot)

 

[Aiki Lee]

Hmm. I'm curious what about the structure he disagreed with. I don't know about Toshindo, so I won't comment on that, but from having trained at numerous Bujinkan schools, the only thing "common" they have (other than technique of course) is that after 4th Dan you have to rank in Japan, and you need Shidoshi-Kai to "officially" teach. Structure is up to the instructor to decide. One school's "structure" may be curriculum based, anothers based on the yearly theme... still another my be based on what the teacher feels like teaching at the time. I assume he was high enough rank to actually teach his people, and since the structure would have been pretty much up to him, I'd be interested to know what made him form his own style. (and again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, its a subject I have been interested in lately, what makes schools branch off, and the precedents for granting yourself "mastership" and whatnot)

Yeah no problem. Now keep in mind that I am retelling what I have been told by my teacher who is trained by Mr. Maienza. So here's my best attempt to convey why he did what he did.

Mr. Maienza trained in the Bujinkan and was ready to take his 5th degree black belt test under hatsumi, so he went to japan. When he observed the testing he noticed that some people could pass the godan test, but couldn't perform good taijutsu at their level. He noticed that many high ranking dans seemd to have been awarded their rank for reasons other than skill in martial arts. Now he felt that those with high rank, but little skill reflected badly on the organization and so he was sadend by the lack of standards. He passed the goan test, but refused to be rank and left the bujinkan.

In Hayes organization, the story is that the aiki ninjutsu curiculum was intended to be the To Shin Do curiculum, but Hayes thought it would be too difficult for most students and they would get frustrated and quit. Because of personal reasons between the two, that I shouldn't discuss Maienza left Hayes organization and made his own.

In both the Bujinkan and To Shin Do Maienza could not find someone to tell him what the requirements were for each rank. It seemd like people were promoted when they were "ready" according to others, but no one could tell him what "ready" actually ment. So in a nutshell, Maienza thought that if someone with a shodan in a particular art moved to a new dojo that practiced the same art, he should be able to do all the same things that the shodans in that dojo can do. So all Jizaikan dojos test for the same thing, but can also add in whatever they feel is usuful. So for example, all red belts must be able to do the aiki kihon happo and ninpo kihon happo off of any attack during randori (all our tests are randori, except when being instructed to show traditional kata), red belts must show they have memorized a 36 move ground fighting drill, plus skill sets that have been learned up and until that point. Now two red belts from two different jizaikan schools could know different things (like maybe one has had more practice with sword and the other has done more ground fighting), but they will be tested for the same thing when they go up for their new rank.

That is the gist of why I was told when I asked why Mr. Maienza formed his own group. Another reason I was told a while back was that he would ask his instructors (a main one being hayes before he made To Shin Do and was still under Hatsumi), what he should be doing next and they told him they didn't have anything left to teach him. So either they were holding something back or they were being truthful, but either way he wasn't getting anything new out of them, which is another reason he sought out new teachers.

And cryo, I take no offense at your questions. I think they are worded respectfully so thank you for that. I'll be meeting with Mr. Maienza in March so If you have other questions let me know, because I intend to interview him for my own notes.

 

[Raynac]

Brett kicks butt! You must be training under Ed? Brett has matured in the art and life a LOT over the many years I have know him. He is one of my favorite people to train with and to talk to in general. A heart as big as he is and skilled to boot, great combination for an Instructor and role model.

Hey! yes I am training under Ed! ha I didn't think I would run into anyone who might have a conection with me. I got to train with brett at a groundfighting seminar this fall. it was pretty good experience.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

"I have a "Nidan" in Kenpo Taijutsu, a "made up art." The background is predominantly Kenpo Karate (EPAK) and Budo Taijutsu but has Army Combatives, Police Defensive Tactics and some Wun Hop Kuen Do, Hapkido and AF PART thrown in just to make it wierder."

Sounds like a spicy stew!

Seems there are a lot of such styles - someone mixes a bunch of different arts that they have some familiarity in (maybe actual ninjutsu is mixed in there as well) and they call it ninjutsu.

It's a little misleading, but I don't mind it too much. As long as the school / instructor is very honest and upfront about what they are doing and their background, then it's just a matter of student caveat emptor.

I think calling what you do by a new name and just saying that it has some ninjutsu elements to it is fine.