Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[Hanzou]

To be honest there are probably a lot of escapes that you have never seen before. The problem with grappling is that a lot people think they have to be on the ground to do it. Which is why your statement includes "punching, kicking, and clawing" Not once have I spoke about dealing with grappling attempts by an opponent by doing those things. Not once in my sparring videos have you seen me try to punch, kick, or claw my way out of my opponents attempts to grab me."

If you train not to be on the ground then you become good at not trying to be on the ground. BJJ doesn't share that perspective. BJJ embraces the ground, so if your mindset is already like that then you aren't even exploring how not to be on the ground because you are so focused on being on the ground.

To prove my point. How much time does BJJ actually dedicated to not being on the ground and not finishing on the ground? How much time do you spend training not to be on on ground? So it's only natural you wouldn't see that I see in my training. I'm not to be mean but there's nothing silly about my comments.

I train not to be on the ground and I look at multiple perspectives on how not to do that. I also look at multiple perspectives on the reality that if I have to go to the ground, then what comes next? I address questions like:
1. How long do I want to be on the ground?
2. How long can I be on the ground before I'm in serious trouble?
3. Where are my windows of escape both before and after I'm on the ground?
4. What ways are the best ways for me to recover and get back to my feet?
5 How might my opponent try to keep me on the ground and what does he need to do in order to be successful with goal?
6. Which stances put me more at risk for being on the ground?

This is just a small part of what my training includes.

You clearly missed my point, so I'll say it again:

If Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers can be taken down, so can you. The punching, kicking and clawing part happens when you're on your back trying to get away.

Silly territory is reached when you start believing that you have better take down defenses than D1 wrestlers and MMA fighters. I've seen both groups taken down by random drunk idiots. If you think Jow Ga gives you better tools than the best, that's your business.

 

[Hanzou]

Bruce Lee isn’t everyone.

But he's certainly a highly respected martial artist with a large following. That was my point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I assume Ninjutsu uses the self-defense approach and not the "sport" approach.

The issue is not the style but the mat time. If I wrestle 15 rounds daily and you only wrestle 2 times weekly, you won't have any chance to wrestle against me.

Many MA systems claim to have throwing in their system. But the throwing skill can only be developed through the "sport' environment. I don't believe the self-defense environment can be used to develop the throwing skill.

I’m not sure what you mean by those two environments, KFW.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, if a BJJ school rolled up on a Boxing club, and got their tucuses handed to them in the boxing ring, would that lower your opinion of BJJ?

Nope it won't lower his opinion of BJJ. It's just how he is.

I learn more when I find someone (from whatever style) who can beat me up. I’m just selfish about my own personal growth that way.

Looks like it's time for you to learn a lot of Jow Ga lol..


just kidding.. couldn't resist. lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now that is an interesting argument....

Let's expand this to general Japanese/Traditional Jiujitsu as a whole; Would you then argue that JJJ/TJJ throwing and grappling isn't close (effective-wise) to their descendant arts (Judo and Bjj)?

I’d argue their (people trained in “traditional” methods, without resistance) will commonly be much weaker in application. That’s not a problem with the style, though, but the method. Take the same training and add a generous measure of resistance, and application improves quickly and dramatically.

 

[Hanzou]

I’d argue their (people trained in “traditional” methods, without resistance) will commonly be much weaker in application. That’s not a problem with the style, though, but the method. Take the same training and add a generous measure of resistance, and application improves quickly and dramatically.

So you're saying that Ninjutsu could benefit from the "Kano" treatment?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Besides the throwing skill, the "sport" environment can help you to develop the shaking force. If you have that, you can shake your opponent in such a way that you can cancel out his force during the initial stage.

IMO, this shaking force can only be developed through the "sport" environment. In other words, you need to let your opponent to move in anyway he wants to (not any pre-defined pattern), so you can test your shaking in all different kind of situations.

So is lack of a predefined pattern what defines “sport environment “?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But he's certainly a highly respected martial artist with a large following. That was my point.

As with many innovators, not everything he did was laudable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m not sure what you mean by those two environments, KFW.

I'm not sure if I understand him as well, but I may understand a little about not learning throwing skills in the self-defense environment. I could be wrong in what I'm reading, but I would much rather be thrown in a sporting environment. In a self defense environment things will most likely become dark. An example, would be in a sporting environment, I'm throwing you. In a self-defense environment I'm may try to throw you on down on uneven surfaces, like curbs, stumps, rocks, etc. If I have the option to throw you down on the flat street or a curb, then I'll probably go for the curb.

In a real life situation that happened in Australia, I was put in a situation where my options were to push a possible attacker on the side walk near the grass or push a guy into on coming traffic. I positioned myself so I could take advantage of the on coming traffic. It was much better that I took that option than to let him position me where he could take the option.

Now if I wanted to practice pushing someone in this self-defense environment, then it won't be long to either me or my training partner will get hit by a car, which makes it bad for training. But in a self-defense environment. I took it, and I would do it every time. Not good for training that way unless it's a dead in street with no traffic, but at that point, your no longer trying to time the push so that your opponent gets hit by a car.

I know to some this sounds horrible, but like I stated. I rather have that option than for a soon to be attacker to have that option.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you're saying that Ninjutsu could benefit from the "Kano" treatment?

I think most traditional styles could benefit from at least part of that. Even if the actual competition/sport of Judo hadn’t happened - if it had simply used the methods common to Judo without formal competition - it would likely have been a game changer. Traditional training probably worked better long ago when many proponents were warriors, so injury was more acceptable. With most MAists being hobbyists, it’s easy to get complacent with the sideways approach of traditional training. Resistive, non-cooperative cooperation helps a lot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure if I understand him as well, but I may understand a little about not learning throwing skills in the self-defense environment. I could be wrong in what I'm reading, but I would much rather be thrown in a sporting environment. In a self defense environment things will most likely become dark. An example, would be in a sporting environment, I'm throwing you. In a self-defense environment I'm may try to throw you on down on uneven surfaces, like curbs, stumps, rocks, etc. If I have the option to throw you down on the flat street or a curb, then I'll probably go for the curb.

In a real life situation that happened in Australia, I was put in a situation where my options were to push a possible attacker on the side walk near the grass or push a guy into on coming traffic. I positioned myself so I could take advantage of the on coming traffic. It was much better that I took that option than to let him position me where he could take the option.

Now if I wanted to practice pushing someone in this self-defense environment, then it won't be long to either me or my training partner will get hit by a car, which makes it bad for training. But in a self-defense environment. I took it, and I would do it every time. Not good for training that way unless it's a dead in street with no traffic, but at that point, your no longer trying to time the push so that your opponent gets hit by a car.

I know to some this sounds horrible, but like I stated. I rather have that option than for a soon to be attacker to have that option.

I assumed he was differentiating the training environments.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m not sure what you mean by those two environments, KFW.

- The self-defense approach, you only train s set of pre-defined situations.
- The sport approach, you allow your opponent to do anything he wants to if the rule set is allowed.

If you ask your opponent, "Try to take me down within 2 minutes.", you are training with "sport" method.

 

[Martial D]

I can tell you really don't get me...

I have nothing against innovation.

I have nothing against development.

I have nothing against testing one thing against another to verify that the innovation and development has led to something "better".


What I don't support is loudly proclaiming that everything else is crap.

I can develop my application of tkd - I do a fair few things that nobody else in my club, or visitors from other clubs, have seen before (mainly stealing techs from other arts ). I test it in sparring against those people - sometimes it works better, sometimes it fails abysmally - but that's development for you.

What I don't do is then tell everyone else that what they're doing is wrong and a waste of time, because that's childish and stupid.

But nobody is doing that. I know that you think Hanzou is, but I read all the same threads as you do and I've yet to see it.

Anyway, what I was getting at was your seeming disdain and disgust for the concept of challenge matches. Myself, I'm very much in favour of the put up or shut up mentality. Without it all we are doing here is playing dressup and doing traditional Asian dancing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Besides the throwing skill, the "sport" environment can help you to develop the shaking force. If you have that, you can shake your opponent in such a way that you can cancel out his force during the initial stage.

IMO, this shaking force can only be developed through the "sport" environment. In other words, you need to let your opponent to move in anyway he wants to (not any pre-defined pattern), so you can test your shaking in all different kind of situations.

If that's you in the video. comedy effort from your student (not in a bad way). You have your hands on your student which means that you had a good read on intention through his movement lol. Did he ever pick that up. If I were going for your legs, I would definitely not want you to be able to sense my movement like that lol. I understand that it was only training, but it didn't seem like he was trying to read your intent in the same way.

Or were you just demonstrating a concept to him so he could understand? Sometimes it's difficult to tell from short video clips

 

[drop bear]

In some cases they have the backing of things like evidence. They can actually cite verifiable reasons as to why they don't work instead of just using personal opinion.

The topic at hand is more like drug companies falsifying studies on a competitor's product, or making large donations to research establishments in return for favourable conclusions.

Or like the tobacco companies voluntarily funding "research" into smoking cessation options offered by other companies.

Or oil companies giving "unbiased" reports on alternative energy.

So it it the evidence not the attitude.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I tend to agree with that, though I wonder if that’s only because my stand-up game is stronger than my ground game.

You probably have a better understanding of the stand up game because grab people while they are standing and you utilize the stand up game. Standing up requires balance so you probably exploit that as well to. Most people don't train balance nor movement of structure which gives you a really good advantage as far as stand up grappling goes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

- The self-defense approach, you only train s set of pre-defined situations.
- The sport approach, you allow your opponent to do anything he wants to if the rule set is allowed.

If you ask your opponent, "Try to take me down within 2 minutes.", you are training with "sport" method.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was way off.

I would have to disagree with you on that one. If anything a self-defense situation is not very pre-defined. The reason I say this is because anything goes in a fight. In sports approach, you have limitations created by rules. In self-defense, if I see a bottle near my attacker I have to start wondering if I need to make sure he doesn't have access to it, or do I take a chance that he won't try to use it. Something as simple as a fork can screw up any "pre-defined" situation.

I still have yet to see any "pre-defined" self-defense training to stab someone with a fork.

However, boxers train to deal with the "pre-defined" rule set of punch only. Self-defense flows like the ocean on the surface it looks calm and peaceful, but underneath there could be a lot of things that are unexpected.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If that's you in the video. comedy effort from your student (not in a bad way). You have your hands on your student which means that you had a good read on intention through his movement lol. Did he ever pick that up. If I were going for your legs, I would definitely not want you to be able to sense my movement like that lol. I understand that it was only training, but it didn't seem like he was trying to read your intent in the same way.

Or were you just demonstrating a concept to him so he could understand? Sometimes it's difficult to tell from short video clips

That's just a record for one principle "shaking". It was not competition. The SC blue belt test requires to test 30 different principles. This kind of short clip just help him to remember the class content.

That's how the jacket wrestling is all about. You can read your opponent. Your opponent can also read you. I told my students that when they attack, they have to break apart their opponent's grips first. This way, their opponent cannot read their intention. Both persons grab on each other and dance is not a good idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

- The self-defense approach, you only train s set of pre-defined situations.
- The sport approach, you allow your opponent to do anything he wants to if the rule set is allowed.

If you ask your opponent, "Try to take me down within 2 minutes.", you are training with "sport" method.

I’ve never seen what you describe in self-defense-oriented schools, even those I’d describe as overly cooperative.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I’ve never seen what you describe in self-defense-oriented schools, even those I’d describe as overly cooperative.

A while ago when I was looking at new schools, I saw it a bit. Not necessarily only that, but most of it was "these are the SD techniques", and there would be no chaining techniques, because there was no need to do so. I saw this moreso in hybrid systems then in grappling oriented schools. And it may have been the result of 1-2 trial classes.