Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[drop bear]

I’ve never seen what you describe in self-defense-oriented schools, even those I’d describe as overly cooperative.

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

 

[pdg]

But nobody is doing that. I know that you think Hanzou is, but I read all the same threads as you do and I've yet to see it.

Anyway, what I was getting at was your seeming disdain and disgust for the concept of challenge matches. Myself, I'm very much in favour of the put up or shut up mentality. Without it all we are doing here is playing dressup and doing traditional Asian dancing.

A challenge match is fine - one practitioner vs. another. No problems there. Open testing and possibly mutual development.

But, there are ways to issue a challenge.

A school invasion (which was partly what started this discussion) isn't a challenge match - it's an attack and simply not acceptable.

And spending a load of time posturing and antagonising another is nothing more than trying to introduce emotion in the hope that it's a distraction - the same reason the prefight interviews always have the contestants insisting they're going to win, it's a psychological tactic.

So unless you're going to say that using that sort of tactic is a fundamental part of the art, it really doesn't have much place in a challenge and actually detracts from proving efficacy. If you can't win unless you mentally affect your opponent, it's not a win anyway.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

It's tough for me to tell...either those people are being way way too compliant, or they are a group of superpowers who have superstrength but missed the superdurability and grip that normally go along with it. I'm betting it's the second.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In sport, if you have taken 20 guys down in the past and nobody has ever taken you down before, the chance that you think you can take the 21th guy down will be high. That's your confidence. You may say, "I have 20-0 under my belt."

In SD, I don't know how to measure your ability and how to develop that kind of confidence.

 

[pdg]

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

What sort of testing is that supposed to represent?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers can be taken down, so can you.

Not sure why you even mentioned this. When I've clearly have not stated that I can't be taken down. The difference between Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers is that they embrace fighting on the ground so they don't mind being on the ground. I don't share that perspective. I have no interest on being on the ground and this is something you cannot say about the systems that you just mentioned.

The only acceptable ground fighting for me is for me to be there for a second and then recover to my feet ASAP. The best way I can show this difference is to put a comparison video of how other Jow Ga students were put on their backs compared to me sparring against the same people. If I showed you this video you would be able to clearly see how unwilling I am to play within their strengths. My perspective does not allow me to take those same risks that those other styles take.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A while ago when I was looking at new schools, I saw it a bit. Not necessarily only that, but most of it was "these are the SD techniques", and there would be no chaining techniques, because there was no need to do so. I saw this moreso in hybrid systems then in grappling oriented schools. And it may have been the result of 1-2 trial classes.

If that's what Kung Fu wang was talking about then yep. I can agree with that. I guess I was looking at it from my perspective of self-defense and how I used to train students. When I was an instructor, I would always train students to take advantage of the opportunity that present's itself. The other instructor was really big on having a set goal to strike in a particular place.

As a result of his desire to hit someone in the head, he often over looked other opportunities and risks. I tend to look at self-defense the same way. I want to maximize as many opportunities as I can.

I didn't think about the self-defense school that train pre-defined responses that cause people to wait for a specific threat instead of being more free flowing and taking the opportunity to avoid threats. This may be why some women who take self-defense still get attacked and why we hear stories about women who were able to fight off attackers thanks to a self-defense class. They probably missed out on opportunities to avoid the threat and only reacted when that pre-defined attack came into play.

 

[pdg]

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

What sort of testing is that supposed to represent?

Actually, I think I might just be about to double standard the crap out of myself.

Brace yourself.

Here it comes.

Any time now.

If that is representative of the style, I'm not sure I count it as a style at all - so bashing it may very well not constitute style bashing.



I feel dirty now, but not entirely in a bad way...

 

[Martial D]

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

...what the f....

 

[Martial D]

Not sure why you even mentioned this. When I've clearly have not stated that I can't be taken down. The difference between Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers is that they embrace fighting on the ground so they don't mind being on the ground. I don't share that perspective. I have no interest on being on the ground and this is something you cannot say about the systems that you just mentioned.

The only acceptable ground fighting for me is for me to be there for a second and then recover to my feet ASAP. The best way I can show this difference is to put a comparison video of how other Jow Ga students were put on their backs compared to me sparring against the same people. If I showed you this video you would be able to clearly see how unwilling I am to play within their strengths. My perspective does not allow me to take those same risks that those other styles take.

You say this as if it's a choice. The fact is, if you haven't trained in a grappling art, you are going down to the ground the second someone that has closes their grip around any part of you.

It's honestly like sorcery.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You say this as if it's a choice.

Yes it is a choice. I can choose where i will try to fight the fight and choose to do everything I can to avoid another's strength. That's always a choice. The thing that isn't a choice is the frequency of success as it varies with each opponent. There is no guarantee that I will go down. There is only a guarantee that I will do what I can not to.

What gets me is that there is this belief that it is impossible to avoid going to the ground and that being put on the ground is 100% guaranteed. To me that is the strangest line of thought.

What makes you think you don't have a choice?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You have your hands on your student which means that you had a good read on intention through his movement lol.

In SC, you want to grab on your opponent but you don't want your opponent to grab you. Unfortunately most of the time both you and your opponent can have grips on each other at the same time. The dancing game then start from there.

To avoid that, you have to "tear" apart your opponent's grips. After tearing, you will end with one grip on your opponent but your opponent has no grip on you, you can then move in and attack.

This is why the "tearing" principle can be used to counter the "shaking" principle. If you have no grips (or only 1 grip) on me, you can't shake me.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So you're saying that Ninjutsu could benefit from the "Kano" treatment?

I’d certainly say it. I spent about 7-8 years training in the Bujinkan and my ability to apply the techniques in a real fight was not high. It’s been probably around 25 years since I was seriously involved in the art, but I could probably make much more of it work effectively now due to the my experience in live, resisted training. My BJJ has made my “ninjutsu” (really Bujinkan Taijutsu) much better, and my Bujinkan experience has had some benefits for my Jiu-jitsu.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Looks like it's time for you to learn a lot of Jow Ga lol..

My mom lives in Macon and I hope that some day I can schedule some time to stop in Atlanta and get a workout in with you when I’m driving to visit her.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What makes you think you don't have a choice?

I think you do have a choice. One of my senior SC brothers is 83 years old now. When he was 45, he announced to the public that if anybody could just take him down once, he would give that person a SC black belt. In the past 38 years, nobody had ever received a black belt from him that way.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The difference between Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers is that they embrace fighting on the ground so they don't mind being on the ground. I don't share that perspective. I have no interest on being on the ground and this is something you cannot say about the systems that you just mentioned.

The only acceptable ground fighting for me is for me to be there for a second and then recover to my feet ASAP.

You have a point regarding many BJJers. However judoka, wrestlers, and samboists can lose a match by being taken down. They only want to be on the ground if they’re the ones performing the takedown and landing on top. They will fight very hard to avoid takedowns and since they’re competing against opponents who are very good at takedowns they get very good at takedown defense. In addition, wrestlers train very hard to get to their feet quickly if they are taken down. They compete against opponents who are good at holding people down so they get skilled at that too. (We do have good methods for regaining the feet in BJJ as well, but we typically don’t train to do it with the same urgency as wrestlers. We have more emphasis on getting up safely rather than quickly.)

 

[drop bear]

What sort of testing is that supposed to represent?

My patience.

 

[Hanzou]

Not sure why you even mentioned this. When I've clearly have not stated that I can't be taken down. The difference between Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers is that they embrace fighting on the ground so they don't mind being on the ground. I don't share that perspective. I have no interest on being on the ground and this is something you cannot say about the systems that you just mentioned.

False. Only Bjjers embrace being on the ground. Everyone else learns tools to get off the ground as fast as possible, or cross train with Bjjers and also embrace fighting on the ground. The more salient point is that all those guys learn how to fight off of the ground utilizing sound grappling principles. No offense, but I doubt those principles exist in Jowga.

The only acceptable ground fighting for me is for me to be there for a second and then recover to my feet ASAP. The best way I can show this difference is to put a comparison video of how other Jow Ga students were put on their backs compared to me sparring against the same people. If I showed you this video you would be able to clearly see how unwilling I am to play within their strengths. My perspective does not allow me to take those same risks that those other styles take.

Yeah but here's the thing; Skilled grapplers will keep you on the ground and not allow you to escape. They will apply pressure from multiple angles, and force you to make a wrong move to advance their position. Take it from someone who has spent many mat hours attempting to escape wrestling and Judo holds and pins from guys who are a lot heavier and stronger than me; it isn't easy even if you're trained. Every wrong move you make will be capitalized on and will only make your situation worse. Every bit of wasted energy only makes it harder for you to defend yourself, and the fact that you're trying to get to your feet as rapidly as possible with no training is pretty much a fast way to screw yourself over. Put your arm up the wrong way? Armbar or Shoulder lock. Move your head away from top pressure? Choke. Turn to your side to avoid getting socked in the face? Choke, Arm lock, neck crank, etc.

You want to really avoid the ground? Embrace it and cross-train in Bjj. Unlike your old Kung Fu school, we won't toss you out because you have a fighting spirit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In SC, you want to grab on your opponent but you don't want your opponent to grab you. Unfortunately most of the time both you and your opponent can have grips on each other at the same time. The dancing game then start from there.

To avoid that, you have to "tear" apart your opponent's grips. After tearing, you will end with one grip on your opponent but your opponent has no grip on you, you can then move in and attack.

This is why the "tearing" principle can be used to counter the "shaking" principle. If you have no grips (or only 1 grip) on me, you can't shake me.

Jow Ga has quite a few techniques that do the same thing. They focus on "attacking the grip" not by striking the grip but "tearing" it much of it is design to work before the grip is securely locked.

Ironically the turning that you show is really good for releasing the grips but one has to be aware of the person quick releasing and re-establishing the grip from the side. There is a similar technique to the one you are showing in Jow Ga. Your Gripping hand turns into a striking hand and the back hand deals with an incoming grab attempt or punch. It looks similar to this but the hand isn't that high, the shoulders aren't squared off, and it's an open hand technique. It follows a similar path as what you are showing but both hands are open in the event there is an opportunity to grab before, during , or after the strike. I've used it to counter strikes before, maybe one day I'll get a chance to use it in the context of grappling.

 

[drop bear]

Yes it is a choice. I can choose where i will try to fight the fight and choose to do everything I can to avoid another's strength. That's always a choice. The thing that isn't a choice is the frequency of success as it varies with each opponent. There is no guarantee that I will go down. There is only a guarantee that I will do what I can not to.

What gets me is that there is this belief that it is impossible to avoid going to the ground and that being put on the ground is 100% guaranteed. To me that is the strangest line of thought.

What makes you think you don't have a choice?

There is a method that gets you up rather than defending off your back.

But it is still a very technical game plan.

I think the issue is you keep just saying stand up. Which is not the same discussion.