Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[Hanzou]

I have an issue when they do.....

I have a problem with anyone who does that regardless of style because it's stupid, childish and pointless

LoL! Sure you do.

Just fyi, trashing other systems (and then backing it up) is part of the reason Bjj is as popular as it is today. "Lowering everyone associated with them" is just some elitist pearl-clutching BS, because again, EVERY martial art is guilty of it, and if they could roll up on a Bjj school and kick the crap out of all the students in there to prop up their art of choice, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[pdg]

"Lowering everyone associated with them" is just some elitist BS, because again, EVERY martial art is guilty of it, and if they could roll up on a Bjj school and kick the crap out of all the students in there to prop up their art of choice, they'd do it in a heartbeat

Yeah, no, I don't think they would.

At least they wouldn't in civilised locations.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, no, I don't think they would.

At least they wouldn't in civilised locations.

Oh yes they would. Bruce Lee rolled up on a karate competition to promote his style while dissing traditional karate in the process. Would you consider Bruce Lee "uncivilized"?

 

[pdg]

Oh yes they would. Bruce Lee rolled up on a karate competition to promote his style while dissing traditional karate in the process. Would you consider Bruce Lee "uncivilized"?

In that context, yes.

 

[Hanzou]

In that context, yes.

And that would put you in the stark minority, since people celebrate him challenging the conventions of Karate and Kung Fu at the time. Heck, read his Tao of Jeet Kun Do, the entire book is a slam on traditional MA systems.

 

[pdg]

And that would put you in the stark minority, since people celebrate him challenging the conventions of Karate and Kung Fu at the time. Heck, read his Tao of Jeet Kun Do, the entire book is a slam on traditional MA systems.

You can challenge convention without being an idiot.

And if you think stuff like school invasions are a perfectly reasonable thing to do then you've got some quite serious psychological issues going on.

 

[Hanzou]

You can challenge convention without being an idiot.

And if you think stuff like school invasions are a perfectly reasonable thing to do then you've got some quite serious psychological issues going on.

So was Bruce Lee being an idiot when he openly slammed traditional styles? Is the Tao of JKD an idiotic book?

 

[pdg]

So was Bruce Lee being an idiot when he openly slammed traditional styles? Is the Tao of JKD an idiotic book?

I don't know how much actual slamming was done, and I've never read the book...

But, if he had the same attitude as you (and if the book reads like you wrote it), then yes.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know how much actual slamming was done, and I've never read the book...

But, if he had the same attitude as you (and if the book reads like you wrote it), then yes.

Lee makes me look like a lover of all martial arts.

Anyway, the POINT is that styles slamming other styles is nothing new, and it certainly didn't begin (or end) with the Gracie Challenge.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

1. Escaping and countering any of the opponents attempts to be put on the ground.
2. Escaping from the ground once the opponent is successful with #1.
3. If I go to the ground it should be of my own choice and not because of my opponent's successful technique. Being on the ground should always be for a moment.

If I can be really good with #1 and #2 then I can deny the ground fight and deny / avoid where my my opponent is stronger than me. I wouldn't add anything to the system unless it works well with #1 , #2, and #3. My opinion is that once Ninjutsu gets into having 3 minute grappling matches, then it has moved very far away from the concept of finishing the fight quickly and as a result it throws away a lot of the concepts and true focus of what Ninjutsu was. Now if there's a BJJ technique that will allow me to stay within 1-3 then go for it.

BJJ does indeed have material to help with 1-3 on your list. If I'm sharing info with someone who already knows how to fight standing up, then that material would be my first priority.

(Learning how to take someone down, keep them down, and finish them on the ground will allow you to explore the escapes and counters in much more depth, but you don't need to be good at those in order to learn the basics of stopping the takedown and escaping the ground.)

 

[pdg]

Lee makes me look like a lover of all martial arts.

Anyway, the POINT is that styles slamming other styles is nothing new, and it certainly didn't begin (or end) with the Gracie Challenge.

I know it's nothing new, and it's not restricted to bjj at all.

Doesn't make it reasonable.

When it's the pioneers of an art doing it, it's slightly more understandable (still not reasonable) - but a few generations later it gets excessively stupid.

Just like how your insistence that everyone would do the same if they could - it's not only unreasonable, it's wrong.

Not everyone has such a pathetic mindset.

 

[pdg]

For information purposes:

@Tony Dismukes - how many times have you felt the need to invade another school or bash their choice of style to validate your own choices and prop your capabilities?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Speaking of which, how's Sambo doing in Australia? It's pretty much DOA in the states.

I don't know about Australia, but there are a few good Sambo people in the U.S.. I hope to get a chance to train with Reilly Bodycomb at some point. He's got some really good material.

I have had a little bit of actual Sambo training, but it wasn't with someone on that level. I still picked up some useful tricks though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For information purposes:

@Tony Dismukes - how many times have you felt the need to invade another school or bash their choice of style to validate your own choices and prop your capabilities?

Never so far. I have spent a fair amount of time picking the brains of practitioners of other styles looking for useful tidbits I can steal and apply to my own game.

The way I look at it is this. Even if another art is 90% junk, it's a better use of my time looking through the 10% non-crap for something I can use than lecturing everybody about how terrible the rest of it is. (Not saying all other arts are 90% bad. That's just an extreme example for illustration.)

 

[Hanzou]

I know it's nothing new, and it's not restricted to bjj at all.

Doesn't make it reasonable.

When it's the pioneers of an art doing it, it's slightly more understandable (still not reasonable) - but a few generations later it gets excessively stupid.

Just like how your insistence that everyone would do the same if they could - it's not only unreasonable, it's wrong.

Not everyone has such a pathetic mindset.

You mean if everyone did what actually works and stopped trying to relive an medieval Asian fairy tale?

Every street fight I've seen has resembled either a MMA fight or a grappling match. I've never seen anyone burst out Tiger Style and start clawing people, or use Mantis Hooks to toss someone.

I'd love to see it, but yeah.....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Uh, 2 years is a long time as a white belt, and going twice a week for 2 years is a decent amount of practice for a hobbyist or non-competitive martial artist. The average time it takes to achieve black is 10 years, which is a very long time considering that in most MAs you reach black in 3-5 years. 3-4 years as a white belt would make many people quit the system. That's like getting a stripe a year, which is absurd. Not to mention that there's still Blue, Purple, and Brown to get through, and most people quit while blue because it's an abyss all of itself.

Also just because its twice a week doesn't mean you're not doing a lot of Bjj. You could be taking 2-3 classes per session along with home practice, seminars, and privates. If you train everyday and you're extremely competition-driven you'll probably reach Brown in 5 years and black in 6-7 years.

I was rolling with a guy not too long ago who achieved his blue belt in a little over a year. He was decent but by the standards of the early nineties in BJJ he was not very good. Back in the nineties it was very uncommon for someone to get a BJJ blue belt in a short period of time like a year or even two. Instead it was more common at least where I trained and every place that I knew off that it was around three years going three or more times a week. Back to the guy I was working with. He had a lot of techniques in his arsenal. Some surprising. However, his overall fundamentals where good but not at a level I would expect for a BJJ blue belt. The lack of serious fundamental skills made countering his moves easy even the surprising ones. Back in the day Hanzou, there were no stripes for white belts either. Yet, people just kept on training and didn't worry about the belt to much. You could roll with a BJJ white belt that had been training for two or three years but hadn't gone to a seminar or been graded by one of the people coming from the Gracie Academy. One of my instructors who was a Blue Belt Two Stripes stayed at that level for years while I was training with him. Some people even passed him in rank because he just didn't go to seminars or when the training representative from the Gracie Academy came around. Still he continued to just beat on people and eventually moved up and got his black belt many years later.

Back to the video in the original post. Kudos for the BJJ blue belt winning and kudos for the ninja guy entering and trying to improve his skill sets!

 

[wab25]

if they could roll up on a Bjj school and kick the crap out of all the students in there to prop up their art of choice, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

So, if a BJJ school rolled up on a Boxing club, and got their tucuses handed to them in the boxing ring, would that lower your opinion of BJJ? More to the point of this thread, if a BJJ practitioner entered a boxing match and got seriously out boxed, would that mean that BJJ black belts are worthless?

Honestly if I was the Ninjutsu practitioner, I'd throw my black belt in the garbage and start over.

Or would you think that was good for the BJJ practitioner to get out and get some experience in a new area.

Lets be honest about the video in the OP for a minute. Yes, it showed a BJJ guy completely dominating some Ninjutsu black belt. So this BJJ phenom found probably the smallest grappling contest around, put on by people that are not experienced in grappling and looked good. I am sure the Mayweather would look great if he showed up at the Boys and Girls Club boxing tournament.

I look at this type of thing, as these arts are trying to expand into new areas and evolve. In this instance they are trying to add grappling and ground fighting. Isn't this what you are advocating?

Frankly traditional arts aren't keeping up with that evolution, much less learning how to properly counter it. Some are adopting Bjj into their programs, which is a good thing, but unless they're doing dedicated programs, it may not be enough.

In short, there's nothing wrong with some cross-training. I'm sure you can find some Bjj or Wrestling in your neck of the woods.

In my opinion, it looks better to me for Ninja boy to step out of his comfort zone, to learn something new and gain more experience, than it does for phenom BJJ boy to find the smallest, least experienced grappling tournament to go win. Hopefully Ninja boy learned some things from rolling with an experienced grappler, and he is a better martial artist for it. I don't think piling on him, helps anybody.

 

[pdg]

So, if a BJJ school rolled up on a Boxing club, and got their tucuses handed to them in the boxing ring, would that lower your opinion of BJJ? More to the point of this thread, if a BJJ practitioner entered a boxing match and got seriously out boxed, would that mean that BJJ black belts are worthless?

I'm so looking forward to this answer

 

[pdg]

Never so far. I have spent a fair amount of time picking the brains of practitioners of other styles looking for useful tidbits I can steal and apply to my own game.

The way I look at it is this. Even if another art is 90% junk, it's a better use of my time looking through the 10% non-crap for something I can use than lecturing everybody about how terrible the rest of it is. (Not saying all other arts are 90% bad. That's just an extreme example for illustration.)

But, but, but...

Aren't you supposed to be out twice a week beating up kids doing karate and Kung Fu?

Apparently, every single person who is capable of that does it

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But, but, but...

Aren't you supposed to be out twice a week beating up kids doing karate and Kung Fu?

Apparently, every single person who is capable of that does it

I learn more when I find someone (from whatever style) who can beat me up. I’m just selfish about my own personal growth that way.