Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[Gerry Seymour]

I had talked to 3 Shaolin monks before their demo. they told me that they are only allowed to teach the pre-defined application in their forms. they may just want to produce students that just know one application.

Okay, so that's how they train. Sounds like a Shaolin model, rather than the SD model.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It looks like an unruly 3rd grade class on substitute teacher day.

Maybe a little to organized for that, unless the 3rd-graders chose their own activities and just refused to stop.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In SD, if you let your opponent to throw 20 punches toward your head in any way that he may like to. You just try to block all those 20 punches. You are using sport training method by my definition.

Okay. By my definition, that's a normal part of SD training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There comes a point where you have to ask yourself why you train. Is it to be the best you can be at a style, or do you want to be the best you can be?

My answer is: I want to be the best I can be at Jow Ga.


For the longest this is all people used to think that the flute was capable of you can't be cool with this stuff. You can't be a Rock Stuff with this stuff.

But people didn't give up on being the best they go be with playing the flute.

Now people understand that the flute can be more than just classical and stuffy. It can actually cool. But you can't expand your instrument "style" by abandoning it. He didn't get a guitar simply because that was the "in thing" to do.

Now the real question becomes. Is your fighting system actually a roadblock, or is it a road block only because you think it is?

If everyone only thought the flute could be a classical instrument and nothing more, then it's clear they didn't explore beyond a classical understanding. If I don't seek seek a deeper understanding of Jow Ga then yes, it will become a roadblock.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It depends if you want to be the best you can at a style, or the best martial artist you can be.

What's the difference?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If it's grappling and it works, it is BJJ. I thought this was well established by now. Sheesh.

Thanks for reminding me. Now I feel stupid lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm going to have to debate this point, JGW. Judoka have always (in the time I've been familiar with the art) resisted going to the ground - their ground work was for dealing with what happens if you end up down there, though it's true they had no particular reason to want to get up if they found themselves on the ground in a match. And fighters who are primarily strikers in MMA very much don't want to be on the ground with a grappler.

I can't argue or debate with your analysis. What you say is true,

 

[Martial D]

What's the difference?

With one you are constrained by the ideas concepts and methods of a few long dead individuals, with the other there is no such constraints.

...and that's all a style is. The ideas of one or a few people that decided this should be this and that should be that. They got some stuff right, some stuff wrong.

The only barometer is testing it, I realize you get that. I know you've realized that in a pretty impactful way from reading the personal information you've made public on this forum. I also realize that you have a level of loyalty to and pride in that style, coming from the years you've put into it. Trust me I understand that.

All I can say is there came a time when I needed a wider world. There is a whole world of martial arts, beyond the scope of any one group of people with various or questionable credentials (due to living so far back into antiquity). This is one point Bruce Lee got right.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about what you do, I really don't know much about jowga at all. I would be willing to bet it would be even better with some wrestling takedown defense(which you will only learn by wrestling) and some mount escapes(which will require mat time rolling with some sort of jujitsu or judo guys) so you can get up and jowga some more if you do get dragged down, however.

Just sayin' broski

 

[Martial D]

If it's grappling and it works, it is BJJ. I thought this was well established by now. Sheesh.

I know you are joking here, but only 50%

The other 60%, I feel, was a serious statement. You're a jitz teacher right? So you get that if it works, if it wasn't jitz before it is now, cause people will start doing it.

Oh, the math? I feel you probably give 110%

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My answer is: I want to be the best I can be at Jow Ga.


For the longest this is all people used to think that the flute was capable of you can't be cool with this stuff. You can't be a Rock Stuff with this stuff.

But people didn't give up on being the best they go be with playing the flute.

Now people understand that the flute can be more than just classical and stuffy. It can actually cool. But you can't expand your instrument "style" by abandoning it. He didn't get a guitar simply because that was the "in thing" to do.

Now the real question becomes. Is your fighting system actually a roadblock, or is it a road block only because you think it is?

If everyone only thought the flute could be a classical instrument and nothing more, then it's clear they didn't explore beyond a classical understanding. If I don't seek seek a deeper understanding of Jow Ga then yes, it will become a roadblock.

I think some of this comes down to a difference in view of what an art is. Some folks define what they do by their art (as you do). Others are collecting what works (especially what works for them) into their personal style, regardless of which style it comes from. Some styles (like BJJ) follow that same path. Some of us base what we do around an art, and see things through that lens, but also seek what works elsewhere and fit it into how we see that art's framework (that'd be me).

So, when you make your statements about how you view yourself with Jow Ga, it doesn't sound in our heads like it does in yours. I don't really care if I'm the best at either doing or teaching NGA. For my own usage, I want to get better at what I do (regardless of where the techniques came from). As a teacher, I'm hoping to shift a bit what NGA actually is seen as by others who practice it - mostly by incorporating from any source what I think fits the framework of NGA and improves the toolset. So, your approach and mine have a similar purpose, but we see the framework differently - yours is focused around what you see as the art, and to me the art is just a container for whatever fits.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it's grappling and it works, it is BJJ. I thought this was well established by now. Sheesh.

Nah, if it's grappling and it works, it's NGA. Unless it makes my knees hurt, then it's BJJ.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some folks define what they do by their art.

The problem of this approach is if the

- MT flying knee, or
- Karate flying side kick, or
- TKD spin back kick, or
- SC leg twist,

are not in your system, no matter how deep that you may dig into your art, you won't be able to find it. Others may not care if they can't do these moves but I do. If I know there is a MA move that I don't know how to do it, I won't be able to be sleep that night.

The following kicks will never be integrated into the Combat SC system if SC guys just dig into their own system.

 

[drop bear]

Okay. By my definition, that's a normal part of SD training.

Really?

Are we going to have this "street hook" debate again

 

[JowGaWolf]

yours is focused around what you see as the art, and to me the art is just a container for whatever fits.

Keep in mind that Jow Ga is made from 3 different fighting systems. The creation of Jow Ga is no different from what you are trying to do with NGA.

 

[Hanzou]

The problem with traditional arts is that they don't evolve, so seeking "deeper meaning" is kind of pointless if you're not introducing new methods. It's like trying to seek deeper meaning in Alchemy when we have Chemistry which is the superior method, and can continue to grow as knowledge grows. Alchemy on the other hand is a dead art created from ignorance and superstitions.

More to the point; Part of the reason Ninjutsu lost in that contest in the OP was because you're pitting science vs pseudo-science, and science always has the advantage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem of this approach is if the

- MT flying knee, or
- Karate flying side kick, or
- TKD spin back kick, or
- SC leg twist,

are not in your system, no matter how deep that you may dig into your art, you won't be able to find it. Others may not care if they can't do these moves but I do. If I know there is a MA move that I don't know how to do it, I won't be able to be sleep that night.

The following kicks will never be integrated into the Combat SC system if SC guys just dig into their own system.

You're correct, though it only matters insofar as there's something they want to be able to do. On your list, I don't really care about two of those (the flying knee and flying side kick). If someone doesn't find things outside their art that solve a problem they wish to solve, then their art does all they need. And some people are just training for the sake of learning some skills, so one art serves them quite well in that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really?

Are we going to have this "street hook" debate again

I'm not sure what you mean by "street hook", DB.

But, in response to the first question, yes, really. It's pretty common, in the SD-oriented schools I've seen, for them to spend time just working against punches (or grips, or tackles, etc.). Not a specific punch, not necessarily even a specific target, but just to ask their partner to feed them punches/try to punch them (different concepts, for different purposes). How realistic those are tends to be highly variable (seemingly mostly dependent upon whether they spar and practice realistic punching), but most of them do something quite like he described in the post I quoted.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Keep in mind that Jow Ga is made from 3 different fighting systems. The creation of Jow Ga is no different from what you are trying to do with NGA.

Probably not much different from what the founder of NGA was doing with it, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem with traditional arts is that they don't evolve, so seeking "deeper meaning" is kind of pointless if you're not introducing new methods. It's like trying to seek deeper meaning in Alchemy when we have Chemistry which is the superior method, and can continue to grow as knowledge grows. Alchemy on the other hand is a dead art created from ignorance and superstitions.

More to the point; Part of the reason Ninjutsu lost in that contest in the OP was because you're pitting science vs pseudo-science, and science always has the advantage.

I agree, except I'd add the word "some" in there somewhere. I'd consider NGA a moderately traditional art. In some schools, they're trying to hold it static (digging into the intent of the founder, as you see in Aikido) while others (and I'm probably near the more radical end of this description) are letting it evolve, and even pushing change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem with traditional arts is that they don't evolve, so seeking "deeper meaning" is kind of pointless if you're not introducing new methods.

I think they still evolve but not by adding. If this was true then boxing would have never evolved.

The issue with traditional martial arts and it's evolution is that there are many teachers of it that actually don't try to seek deeper meaning of it. There are many TMA teachers who can't use the techniques that they train nor do they have any interest in doing so. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with this unless you are trying to use the system for fighting. I believe a system for fighting can only evolve by fighting. If you want the system to remain a good fighting system then it cannot evolve in absence of fighting.

The truth about many TMAs is that they are evolving. They just aren't evolving into fighting systems, they are evolving into entertainment performance and acrobatic systems. The only reason's they are evolving into these systems is because the majority of the people aren't using them for fighting.

You can always introduced new applications of something that already exists.

For example, Jow Ga teaches a punching technique that I actually use as a grappling technique. No one taught me this application of the punching technique. I learned it on my own during fighting. So my discovery could very well be an evolution of this punching technique. Or I may have discovered that this grappling application was always there from the beginning and it's just that teachers weren't using the techniques in sparring. As a result they weren't ever going to discover this by not sparring with the techniques.

Fighting techniques cannot evolve without actually fighting / sparring. I can't just do forms all day and hope to evolve, improve, or understanding an existing technique. I actually have to use those techniques. The more I use those techniques, the better the chance will be for it's evolution.

The more people played the flute the more the flute was able to evolve.

The more peopled boxed, the more boxing evolved.

Most of the people you are referring to about TMA probably can't even use their techniques so how are those techniques going to evolve for fighting if you can't use them? You have to use what you train, if it doesn't work, then figure out what you were doing wrong with the technique. Gain a better understanding of the technique and try the new theory. Eventually you'll get it right, but not after a bunch of failures.

It's the same process as the invention of flight. Plane didn't fly this time, what did I do wrong? Rethink your understanding of the concept of flight. Try again. Got it wrong again? Rethink your understanding of flight. What are you getting right? what are you getting wrong? Try again. Eventually you'll gain the understanding your need to fly

My training takes a similar path. Some guy in the past was known to use these techniques for fighting. use the technique in sparring. The technique didn't work this time. What did I do wrong? Rethink my understanding of the concept of the technique. Try again. Got it wrong again? Rethink my understanding of the technique. What am I getting right? What am I getting wrong? Try again. Eventually I'll gain the understanding I'll need to use the technique.

Once I understand the technique, then I can start improving on the technique and evolving the technique. Similar to how the jab and footwork evolved for boxing.