Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[dunc]

Found these with a little googling

Of course there's always Steve Jennum...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

According to the Bujinkan, there's over 30 throws.

How does Bujinkan define those 30 throws?

In SC, there are 61 different categories throws. A total over 230 throws.

1. sweep - 35 throws.
2. break - 32 throws.
3. ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good. The sooner you get out of silly territory the better.

I'm going to screen shot this quote and use it to fuel my success. That way any Biased comment that you make about BJJ is going to be answered with this video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You do have a choice..sort of..to not get grabbed. But, that's not always your choice to make either.

Do you think a completely untrained striker could stand in front of you and stuff all your strikes?

Probably not, and I don't either. That's why it's a skill set. To add to this grappling skills are far less intuitive than striking skills, meaning an untrained grappler is far less likely to instictively react correctly to a double leg(underhook, sprawl) than to an overhand(duck!).

This all becomes self evident on day one of training with skillful grapplers. I say all of this as a guy that is 80% striker 20% grappler with a CMA base.

I will include you on my list. A person can have grappling skills without it being BJJ grappling skills.

 

[dunc]

How does Bujinkan define those 30 throws?

In SC, there are 62 different categories throws. A total over 230 throws. Even just the foot sweep, there are 35 different ways to apply it.

Actually they are not really defined (despite some people's efforts to do so)
The throws are in the context of the overall situation/technique/drill and often don't really have a name

 

[Steve]

I will include you on my list. A person can have grappling skills without it being BJJ grappling skills.

If it's grappling and it works, it is BJJ. I thought this was well established by now. Sheesh.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I dunno man. I understand and can apply WC things because of the perspective offered by MMA training. Sometimes you need to take your toe off the line to step forward.

Nope. You just need to spar against other systems and communicate. I've learned thing about Jow Ga from other people who share how techniques in their system works. It didn't require me to train in that system to understand how that application may be similar and technique in Jow Ga.

For example I didn't understand the application of the low horse stance prior to sparring with grappliers. I didn't have to train their system to learn more about mine. I only had to be confronted with that system and dig deeper into the system I train.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A while ago when I was looking at new schools, I saw it a bit. Not necessarily only that, but most of it was "these are the SD techniques", and there would be no chaining techniques, because there was no need to do so. I saw this moreso in hybrid systems then in grappling oriented schools. And it may have been the result of 1-2 trial classes.

I'm not saying they don't use pre-defined situations (situational drills). But I haven't seen one that only did the pre-defined situations. It's pretty common IME for them to center their study around pre-defined situations (conceptually similar to how techniques are approached in sport training, too), but then there's normally some time spent on "just attack me" stuff.

Now, as you point out, it's not uncommon for them to reduce it to a one-and-done routine, where they don't really learn what to do when an attempted technique doesn't work, for whatever reason.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By the way will I be seen as one of those nasty mmaers of I admit I am really starting to dislike this club.

We don't know they never move beyond those scenarios, though. That was my point. KFW referred to the SD model as sticking to pre-defined situations, but that hasn't been my experience at any SD school I've visited, nor what I've heard from anyone who trains at one. SD schools have some typical flaws, but I'm not aware of that being one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In sport, if you have taken 20 guys down in the past and nobody has ever taken you down before, the chance that you think you can take the 21th guy down will be high. That's your confidence. You may say, "I have 20-0 under my belt."

In SD, I don't know how to measure your ability and how to develop that kind of confidence.

You can do the same thing, when training for SD. SD isn't the opposite of sport. Someone can train for either as their purpose for training, using most of the same training methods. They are less different than they are similar, if we ignore the differences between styles. I know folks whose purpose is SD, who train in sport-oriented settings. I've even known a few sport-oriented folks who cross-trained in SD schools to explore a different approach to see if they could find something new for themselves.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the SD model as sticking to pre-defined situations,

I had talked to 3 Shaolin monks before their demo. they told me that they are only allowed to teach the pre-defined application in their forms. they may just want to produce students that just know one application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure why you even mentioned this. When I've clearly have not stated that I can't be taken down. The difference between Judoka, Bjjers, Samboists, MMAers, and Wrestlers is that they embrace fighting on the ground so they don't mind being on the ground. I don't share that perspective. I have no interest on being on the ground and this is something you cannot say about the systems that you just mentioned.

The only acceptable ground fighting for me is for me to be there for a second and then recover to my feet ASAP. The best way I can show this difference is to put a comparison video of how other Jow Ga students were put on their backs compared to me sparring against the same people. If I showed you this video you would be able to clearly see how unwilling I am to play within their strengths. My perspective does not allow me to take those same risks that those other styles take.

I'm going to have to debate this point, JGW. Judoka have always (in the time I've been familiar with the art) resisted going to the ground - their ground work was for dealing with what happens if you end up down there, though it's true they had no particular reason to want to get up if they found themselves on the ground in a match. And fighters who are primarily strikers in MMA very much don't want to be on the ground with a grappler.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

...what the f....

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that, either. I mean, maybe if the point was just to move around a lot and work up a sweat, but this is supposed to be grading.

 

[Martial D]

I will include you on my list. A person can have grappling skills without it being BJJ grappling skills.

I know. I already already said that. You will not however, find them in any CMA besides perhaps chinese wrestling.

Nope. You just need to spar against other systems and communicate. I've learned thing about Jow Ga from other people who share how techniques in their system works. It didn't require me to train in that system to understand how that application may be similar and technique in Jow Ga.

For example I didn't understand the application of the low horse stance prior to sparring with grappliers. I didn't have to train their system to learn more about mine. I only had to be confronted with that system and dig deeper into the system I train.

So.indeed, your goal is to become the best you can be at JowGa. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You say this as if it's a choice. The fact is, if you haven't trained in a grappling art, you are going down to the ground the second someone that has closes their grip around any part of you.

It's honestly like sorcery.

Possibly. Though I've dealt with a couple of guys from predominantly striking arts (I don't recall - some form of Karate, I think) who were really "rooted". Trying to move them for grappling was really frustrating, and I mostly had to depend upon either catching them on the move and blocking a leg out, or using leg sweeping throws without properly disrupting their structure.

While those are exceptions, they were exceptionally well prepared to prevent being taken to the ground.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My mom lives in Macon and I hope that some day I can schedule some time to stop in Atlanta and get a workout in with you when I’m driving to visit her.

I've been meaning to get over to see him, too, Tony. If you make it down, give a yell - he's only about 3 hours from my house.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that, either. I mean, maybe if the point was just to move around a lot and work up a sweat, but this is supposed to be grading.

It looks like an unruly 3rd grade class on substitute teacher day.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

SD isn't the opposite of sport.

In SD, if you let your opponent to throw 20 punches toward your head in any way that he may like to. You just try to block all those 20 punches. You are using sport training method by my definition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

According to the Bujinkan, there's over 30 throws.
Here is also some Bujinkan newaza:

While I certainly understand they have some hang-ups with making things more "deadly" than necessary, it shouldn't take much to modify a throw or a pin to make it comply to a ruleset if you have the base skill to pull it off in the first place.

I think the issue is that they don't have the skill in the first place.

There's an additional issue that SD-oriented training faces in trying to pivot to competition grappling. I've tried to explain it before, and maybe I'll do better here. Some locks are only useful for destruction - they simply don't have a solid base for restricting movement while they are applied with control long enough for an opponent to realize they're trapped and then tap out. Some even have a risk that a "wrong" counter can lead into the lock even harder, and the only way to avoid destruction (some sort of significant injury to the joint) is to entirely release the lock.

SD grappling often leans on these a lot, and having a habit of reaching for those leaves gaps that can't be quickly filled, because you're not in position for a different technique. I can recover one of those locks if it fails and pivot it into something else that's useful. But in a competition format, against someone of roughly equal grappling skill, every time I step near one of those techniques and have to bail because it doesn't fit the need, it leaves an opening for them to counter. So, the guy who trains for sport will have a pretty big advantage in competition over the guy who trains in one of those SD approaches that uses the destructive locks a lot. There's an easy fix, but it's not in line with the person's purpose for training: train specifically what will work in the competition, rather than including those techniques that won't be useful there.

(On a side note, some of those techniques have less-destructive variations that LEO trained in them find useful, but which don't show up in competition. I can only assume that's because someone with any significant training can shut them down too easily.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Certainly. However if you wish to compete utilizing Ninjutsu such work should be expected and not be an insurmountable task.

In Bjj, you have to take competition classes to prepare yourself for competition. In those classes several Bjj techniques are modified, and if it is nogi, those techniques are modified even further.

I guess that depends what the reason is for competing. If I manage to find someplace to compete, I can't see me doing much to change my training in preparation. The point of competing wouldn't be to win the event, but to see what I can make work and what causes me problems. Now, I might find reason to change something in my training as a result of what works and what causes me problems, but not if I think it's something specific to the competition format.