Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[JowGaWolf]

I was talking about TMAs.

TMA will follow similar paths of fighting evolution, if the techniques are often used during sparring and competitive fighting, If you and I are trained to do the same back fist technique, but you actually use yours in sparring and fighting, then you will be able to make improvements on that backfist technique because it's something you use and have gained a better understanding of as a result. If I don't use mine, then my backfist will always be same as it was when it was first taught to me. My backfist won't evolve because I won't have the same experience and knowledge that you gained from actually using it. I would have theories and I would go to you and tell you that you are wrong because that's not how it was taught to us. You would reject that reasoning and tell me that you know because you use it and I don't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Take the uppercut for example. The uppercut was introduced by Duth Sam in the early 1800s and he wrecked havoc in boxing until a new way was discovered to block it.

I'm pretty sure the uppercut existed long before then. It may not have been called an upper cut, but there's no way you can tell me out of all of the human wars and battles, and village fighting that uppercuts never existed.. Even inexperienced and untrained people do uppercuts.

There are fighting systems older than the 1800s that have uppercuts in them. Hung ga was said to be created in the 17th century and that stuff is full of uppercuts.

Dambe is said to be older than Hung Ga and that has upper cuts. How long have humans been fighting on this planet and you are telling me that there was never a punch that look like an uppercut until the 1800's?
Duth Sam just gave a catchy name to something that already existed. Just like Rogain naming an existing kick that has been around for centuries an Oblique kick.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm pretty sure the uppercut existed long before then. It may not have been called an upper cut, but there's no way you can tell me out of all of the human wars and battles, and village fighting that uppercuts never existed.. Even inexperienced and untrained people do uppercuts.

There are fighting systems older than the 1800s that have uppercuts in them. Hung ga was said to be created in the 17th century and that stuff is full of uppercuts.

Dambe is said to be older than Hung Ga and that has upper cuts. How long have humans been fighting on this planet and you are telling me that there was never a punch that look like an uppercut until the 1800's?
Duth Sam just gave a catchy name to something that already existed. Just like Rogain naming an existing kick that has been around for centuries an Oblique kick.

It obviously didn't exist in boxing, because Dutch Sam was using it to devastating effect and a new block had to be created to defend against it.

Then you have Jim Corbett's innovation in footwork that allowed him to beat larger and stronger opponents with evasion and timing. His scientific approach to boxing influenced other fighters and added an air of sophistication to the sport that helped it become more acceptable to society as a whole.

Again, in both of those instances you have new things being introduced to the sport that helped it evolve into what it is today. It should also be noted that both of those innovations would have been rejected in a TMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, and we were talking about planes. You know, flying machines that can carry loads of passengers and cargo over long distances.

But planes don't flap. so you are talking about 2 different flying machines. In other words if you made an ornithopter that carried passengers it still wouldn't be an airplane.

It's like boxing. As long as they are punching and using boxing techniques it will always be boxing. The moment you add a kick, it stops being boxing.
Kick boxing, chinese boxing, and Dambe boxing are all fighting systems that have boxing in the name, but none of them is Boxing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then you have Jim Corbett's innovation in footwork that allowed him to beat larger and stronger opponents with evasion and timing.

So now you are saying that innovative footwork didn't exist until Jim Corbett. So fighting footwork never evolved until Jim Corbett?

 

[Hanzou]

So now you are saying that innovative footwork didn't exist until Jim Corbett. So fighting footwork never evolved until Jim Corbett?

It certainly did, but Corbett's was more effective and it allowed him to beat stronger opponents with his speed and evasiveness. His more scientific training method was adopted by later boxers. In other words, he caused an evolution in boxing just like Dutch Sam did.

You should also read up on Daniel Mendoza's contributions to boxing in the late 18th century.

 

[Hanzou]

But planes don't flap.

That's my point. There's a standard model for airplane design and flapping wings ain't part of it.

so you are talking about 2 different flying machines. In other words if you made an ornithopter that carried passengers it still wouldn't be an airplane.

No, I'm saying that there is a standard model of airplane design, just like there is a standard model for fighting. There's some slight variations to the model, but in general every functional plane and every functional fighter looks fundamentally the same.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, in both of those instances you have new things being introduced to the sport that helped it evolve into what it is today. It should also be noted that both of those innovations would have been rejected in a TMA.

Dude you must be really tired.

This is Choy Ga. One of the systems that Jow Ga was created from take a look at foot work.

Choy Ga, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, and Shoalin utilizes upper cuts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I'm saying that there is a standard model of airplane design, just like there is a standard model for fighting. There's some slight variations to the model, but in general every functional plane and every functional fighter looks fundamentally the same.

Planes more so than fighting.
Functional weapons fighting does not how the same standards as functional hand to hand fighting. But if you are referring to functional hand combat then yes. The functional fighter will fundamentally look the same which is why we can look at those stupid Tai Chi vs MMA videos and tell right away that the Tai Chi guy has never done sparring before. Right off the back we see that he lacks that functional standard that you are speaking of. Hands up, knees bent, foot position and the look of being ready are just some of the biggest give away. That's more of a training issue than a technique issue. The standard that you speak of usually comes from doing (fighting) and not just drilling. Even if you didn't train a system, you would eventually develop a similar look simply fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

there is a standard model for fighting. There's some slight variations to the model, but in general every functional plane and every functional fighter looks fundamentally the same

To me all grapplers look the same even if they do different techniques. They always seem to be creeping up on me trying to get close and it always feels like they are trying to get me to stand up tall so that they can attack from the bottom. Even when they punch it doesn't feel or look like they are committed to staying in a striking stance. It always looks like something halfway between a striking and grappling stance (not the hunched one, but the drop down suddenly one.).

 

[Hanzou]

Dude you must be really tired.

This is Choy Ga. One of the systems that Jow Ga was created from take a look at foot work.

You’re confused. I’m not saying that Corbett invented boxing footwork period. I’m saying that Corbett created a superior form of footwork that replaced the older versions of boxing footwork. In contrast, try convincing a Choy Li Fut ( or choy whatever) school to replace their 300+ year-old footwork with a new form based on western science. It ain’t going to happen, even if the new footwork creates a better fighter.

Choy Ga, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, and Shoalin utilizes upper cuts.

That ain’t no boxing uppercut.

 

[drop bear]

No, I'm saying that there is a

You have to know the rules before you can break the rules.

 

[Hanzou]

You have to know the rules before you can break the rules.

Of course, and modern styles allow you to break the rules if it creates a better fighter in the end.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, and modern styles allow you to break the rules if it creates a better fighter in the end.

Yeah. I was thinking of guys like mvp or Anderson Silva. Who can get away with doing their own thing. But they have a fundamental understanding of their craft first.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While an interesting analogy, keep in mind that planes work via a standardized model. No one is building a workable plane with wings that flap like a bird for example, and all modern planes are using similar engines and turbines. Fighting works in a similar fashion. When broken down, all fighting looks like a MMA match at varying skill levels. I have yet to see someone break into a Crane Stance and start doing crane kung fu while someone is socking them in the face. Instead of making a plane with a flawed design, why not go with the working design and save time trying to reach your destination?

There’s a broader link to his analogy. We have jets, turbo-props, single- and double-engines. We have forward and backward props. We have helicopters, VTOL (vertical take-off and landing), and even convertible aircraft. Which is better? By the easiest standard, probably a jet engine, but we keep using others for purposes where they suit better (short landing strip, etc). And we keep working to innovate all of those areas.

That’s without getting into the related area of glide-craft.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wrong. Take the uppercut for example. The uppercut was introduced by Duth Sam in the early 1800s and he wrecked havoc in boxing until a new way was discovered to block it. Why create new devastating techniques? Why create new methods to stop these new devastating techniques? Because you want to win. There would be no reason to create an uppercut or the method to block the uppercut if that goal wasn't in place. Further, if boxing were structured like a TMA, such a new, devastating technique would have been rejected or ignored.

Winning competition isn’t the only driving force for innovation or evolution. It’s a strong one - perhaps the strongest - but it has some drawbacks as you’ve recently mentioned about BJJ competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, and we were talking about planes. You know, flying machines that can carry loads of passengers and cargo over long distances.

Not all airplanes do that.

 

[Hanzou]

There’s a broader link to his analogy. We have jets, turbo-props, single- and double-engines. We have forward and backward props. We have helicopters, VTOL (vertical take-off and landing), and even convertible aircraft. Which is better? By the easiest standard, probably a jet engine, but we keep using others for purposes where they suit better (short landing strip, etc). And we keep working to innovate all of those areas.

That’s without getting into the related area of glide-craft.

Yeah, but we were talking specifically about planes. When you think of an airplane, a very specific model pops in your head. You don't envision a bird looking vehicle covered in feathers with flapping wings, you vision the standard airplane design that's been in place for over 75 years.

Fighting is similar. When people fight, they generally look the same, whether they're trained or untrained; like a MMA fighter. They may dance around each other and pepper each other with strikes, they may clench up and try to take each other to the pavement, they may get a clean one-hit KO, but in the end, it all generally looks like an unpolished MMA bout.

So if your goal is to be a more proficient fighter, why waste time learning all those pretty and exaggerated movements when all you need is four boxing punches, a couple of kicks, and some grappling? In short, why not just learn to fight like an MMA fighter?

 

[JowGaWolf]

That ain’t no boxing uppercut

While it is not a "Boxer's upper cut" it is an upper and from this uppercut other variations can evolve from it and Jow Ga has a lot of variations of an uppercut.
The follow up strike is an uppercut

Another variation

Some more upper cuts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's the "boxer's uppercut" like I stated we have tons of uppercuts in the system