Ninjutsu good for security agent?

[Gerry Seymour]

The point I am making here is that if you willingly agree to fight someone in the street/bar you are not acting in SD, and so become legally responsible for the consequences, both legal and financial. If you are legally acting in SD then you are not responsible. So the courts deal with different scenarios in different ways.

But this has nothing to do with the overlap in tools between the two, and is why people get frustrated with this argument. Yes, there are considerations in self-defense/self-protection that don't apply for sport fighting. But there's a lot that overlaps in the physical skills of self-defense.

 

[jobo]

Perhaps in some circumstances yes, but in others no. But mechanics wasn't the point I was demonstrating with this post.

The point I am making here is that if you willingly agree to fight someone in the street/bar you are not acting in SD, and so become legally responsible for the consequences, both legal and financial. If you are legally acting in SD then you are not responsible. So the courts deal with different scenarios in different ways.

Although KFW's question was flippant because he does not understand the difference, it is important to know you cannot just go round hitting people and then legally claiming the act of SD and illegally street fighting are the same just because the mechanics of a punch are the same. Also KFW, as do many, needs to understand that whilst there are some cross over skills between fighting and SD (a good punch is always a good punch) there are many skills which whilst successful in one arena are wholly unsuited to the other.

I've asked you this before, when you made a similar claim, and you didn't have an answer then, perhaps you do know as you are saying it again, if two blokes take themselves of to aa quite spot for a consensual fight, what specific law have they broken, I'm sure you know as you claim it will land them in court

 

[jobo]

I think you have an interesting view on self defense. In many ways, I agree, but in a few key areas, I just don't. You continually emphasize that consensual violence is not self defense, but have also said that cops who engage in violence are engaging in self defense. How is it consensual on one hand and not on the other? A cop doesn't run away and in fact, often initiates the violence. How is that self defense?

Il answer that for you as i suspect Paul has no idea, in the UK, cops can use reasonable force to effect an arrest, that is they will make an arrest and any force necessary to make that arrest is reasonable with the exception of shooting them, which is a bit of a no no unless they are believed to have a fire arm ready to discharge.

however the same level of force is available to citizens if they make a citizens arrest .

 

[drop bear]

I think you have an interesting view on self defense. In many ways, I agree, but in a few key areas, I just don't. You continually emphasize that consensual violence is not self defense, but have also said that cops who engage in violence are engaging in self defense. How is it consensual on one hand and not on the other? A cop doesn't run away and in fact, often initiates the violence. How is that self defense?

That has to be a bad way to view a self defence situation as you are mentally setting yourself up as the victim.

I prefer the rawshak concept.

 

[drop bear]

Il answer that for you as i suspect Paul has no idea, in the UK, cops can use reasonable force to effect an arrest, that is they will make an arrest and any force necessary to make that arrest is reasonable with the exception of shooting them, which is a bit of a no no unless they are believed to have a fire arm ready to discharge.

however the same level of force is available to citizens if they make a citizens arrest .

As a cop they can also act in self defence. So say they are getting toweled and start swinging. They are outside the bounds of an arrest but inside the bounds of self defence. Then once they have defended themselves back to effecting an arrest.

I used this all the time. Saved me having to use wrist locks on guys who were fighting me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you have an interesting view on self defense. In many ways, I agree, but in a few key areas, I just don't. You continually emphasize that consensual violence is not self defense, but have also said that cops who engage in violence are engaging in self defense. How is it consensual on one hand and not on the other? A cop doesn't run away and in fact, often initiates the violence. How is that self defense?

I think most people (and the law in most places) consider 'consensual violence' to be sparring or a competitive match between two or more people. You know... tournaments and such.
Just because your job exposes you to violence doesn't make it consensual. I've certainly never consented any of the times I've been assaulted.

 

[drop bear]

I think most people (and the law in most places) consider 'consensual violence' to be sparring or a competitive match between two or more people. You know... tournaments and such.
Just because your job exposes you to violence doesn't make it consensual. I've certainly never consented any of the times I've been assaulted.

You still consent to violence when you train though. Which makes me think that a lot of self deception has to occur.

So I go to training. Consent to violence, then pretend not to consent? While then he is pretending to mug me or something. With no practical experience in either being mugged or being a mugger. It just goes too far into larp for me.

For me I think if the focus is on self defence only, people are not considering the bigger picture.

An arrest isn't self defence but is a legal use of force for a martial artist.

 

[drop bear]

I mean let's just use MMA rules for a moment and look at them in the context of self defence. I could carry a handbag into the cage. And make the victory conditions that I win if I escape with the handbag and he wins if he escapes with the hand bag. Otherwise what would really change?

I could set it up so he gets the first strike and I have to wait until he fires. Again what really changes.

Even for security. I have to get a guy out a door and he can punch kick and grapple my head off.

Bear in mind these drills are consensual so therefore do not have an impact on self defence.

 

[Steve]

I think most people (and the law in most places) consider 'consensual violence' to be sparring or a competitive match between two or more people. You know... tournaments and such.
Just because your job exposes you to violence doesn't make it consensual. I've certainly never consented any of the times I've been assaulted.

I’m actually quite sure that this isn’t how paul d defines it. You might, but he’s been pretty clear to include more than that. Edit. I mean to say that Paul d’s Definition of consensual violence is more broad than “just sparring or a competitive match. You know... tournaments and such.”

 

[Dirty Dog]

You still consent to violence when you train though.

Sure, if you spar. That's pretty much why laws exist to allow consensual violence. Otherwise you could be arrested for sparring.

I’m actually quite sure that this isn’t how paul d defines it. You might, but he’s been pretty clear to include more than that. Edit. I mean to say that Paul d’s Definition of consensual violence is more broad than “just sparring or a competitive match. You know... tournaments and such.”

I'm only commenting on the cop example. It's pretty clear (or should be) that being a cop does NOT mean that you're consenting to being assaulted.

 

[Steve]

Sure, if you spar. That's pretty much why laws exist to allow consensual violence. Otherwise you could be arrested for sparring.



I'm only commenting on the cop example. It's pretty clear (or should be) that being a cop does NOT mean that you're consenting to being assaulted.

No but being a cop does mean choosing to engage in violence.

 

[Steve]

Lol. You're disagreeing that Paul has a broader definition than you? Okay.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No but being a cop does mean choosing to engage in violence.

I would say that being a cop means accepting the risk of being forced to engage in violence. In no way does it mean you consent to the violence.

 

[drop bear]

No but being a cop does mean choosing to engage in violence.

Yeah there is sort of a thing there. And I get almost the same thing.

What that leans towards is well bouncers should expect to get punched its their job.

My view is the chick at my local supermarket is an irritating *****, but I can just punch her because it is her job.

 

[Steve]

I would say that being a cop means accepting the risk of being forced to engage in violence. In no way does it mean you consent to the violence.

I think you're funny.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you're funny.

Thank you. I think you're funny too.
I just don't think accepting a risk of violence is the same as consenting to it, any more than accepting a risk of being raped is the same as consenting.

 

[Steve]

Thank you. I think you're funny too.
I just don't think accepting a risk of violence is the same as consenting to it, any more than accepting a risk of being raped is the same as consenting.

I actually never said otherwise. However choosing to engage in violence is exactly that. And also that Paul d's definition consensual violence is broader than yours.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps in some circumstances yes, but in others no. But mechanics wasn't the point I was demonstrating with this post.

The point I am making here is that if you willingly agree to fight someone in the street/bar you are not acting in SD, and so become legally responsible for the consequences, both legal and financial. If you are legally acting in SD then you are not responsible. So the courts deal with different scenarios in different ways.

Although KFW's question was flippant because he does not understand the difference, it is important to know you cannot just go round hitting people and then legally claiming the act of SD and illegally street fighting are the same just because the mechanics of a punch are the same. Also KFW, as do many, needs to understand that whilst there are some cross over skills between fighting and SD (a good punch is always a good punch) there are many skills which whilst successful in one arena are wholly unsuited to the other.

This may answer my previous question. Is the key legality vs consent?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This may answer my previous question. Is the key legality vs consent?

IIRC, I read somewhere that in UK law, consent is a legal defense (similar to a claim of self-defense), but that defense ends when actual physical harm occurs. Someone more familiar with their laws can probably expand upon or correct that.

 

[jobo]

IIRC, I read somewhere that in UK law, consent is a legal defense (similar to a claim of self-defense), but that defense ends when actual physical harm occurs. Someone more familiar with their laws can probably expand upon or correct that.

its murky in law, generaly consent is no defence to any thing equal or exceeding actual bodily harm, that bad bruising significant cuts or similar. There is a,sports defence, that consent to operate with in a defined rule set is a defence, that's really a governing body rule set not just one you made up. So kicking people in the rough vircinity of the ball is a defence in a football match, but head butting or punching is assault, banging some one in the face with the palm of your hand is ok in rugby, but kicking them is assault.

boxing was given a pass in the 1800s, for no logical reason other than they didn't want to ban it, whilst prize fight is illegal???? There is no established law on other ma including Mma, they seem to be ridding on boxing coat tails, if you have rules and a referee and gloves then its okish. Bare knuckle boxing is considered illegal, Sparring in a dojo is something of a grey area, especially if its bare fisted and full contact. Probablycovered by the sports defence, but only probably???.

there is a horseplay defence, where you had no intent to cause injury, even if you were recklass in your actions that might cover it as well