Ninjutsu contradictions

[Tony Dismukes]

Generally I agree

On the lineage thing:

Sean Askew has fairly recently managed to connect Takamatsu to his teacher (Toda) and establish that Toda was an esteemed sword instructor, came from Iga (family owned a castle there), worked for the shogun on “special projects” etc and pretty much back up the oral history of certain events that happened to him

He’s regularly posting on facebook etc with his findings - which are the first time someone knowledgable has actually taken the time to do some pretty thorough research

I’ve seen some of those postings. Of course, even if it could be conclusively proven that Takamatsu received soke-ship of those arts from Toda, that would raise the question of how much Toda may have embellished the histories. It’s cool that Sean is doing the research though.

 

[dunc]

Yes nothing is going to be 100% black and white
Hell that even applies to what my grandad did

It's pretty clear that Toda was from Iga, was a super-well-respected martial artist, had a job traditionally given to ninjas & was related to Takamatsu
So certainly the scales are tipped in favour of the link back to martial arts of Iga

On the longer term lineage (ie lists of previous people), I suspect that this is not a model of "a single soke bequeaths his art to another single soke", and more of a list of notable folk from the area / group back in history

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

When we make assumptions based on the standards set by westerners on eastern arts, we would find ourselves being biased towards the western ideology. This is in fact inaccurate and a serious misinterpretation of truth. I agree that emphasis was placed on lineage on certain facets of the arts like sword making etc. This is much like the passing on of a trade from father to son. This did not however apply to ninjitsu or the transmission thereof. In order to see the context one needs to look at the circumstances which necessitated the rouge element. the Shinobi had many teachers, each contributing their aspects of mastery to the students. There was never a complete sylabus nor was or is ninjitsu a distinct art that could carry any kind of lineage. The lineage of the art is multi faceted with each facet having a Master who taught what they knew to the youth and to each other as far as they could. This is why this particular art can be divided into many individual forms. The reason being that the ninja had many masters. This is why one may notice that various clans have their own specializations and so do the sub clans. While one may determine ones natural element by that which feels comfortable to the individual character anything taught, learned or transmitted will undoubtedly carry through to the actual practice or implementation of the art.
In the same way that research by a westerner will be done from a western perspective while research by an easterner will be done from an eastern perspective. Each placing emphasis on that which is deemed an important to their cultural heritage while neither is correct nor incorrect.

"I shall now leave you to ponder"

Kind regards

Ebrahim

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

Ninjutsu, contrary to portrayal in popular media, was not an art of assassination. Practitioners were not being trained as assassins.



This is incorrect. Traditional Japanese martial arts tend to place significant emphasis on lineage, documentation of teaching licensure, and other such markers of "authenticity."



This is also incorrect. Hatsumi is not officially* regarded as the founder of any martial art. His title is "soke", meaning he is the person who is responsible for the transmission of the martial lineages which were handed down to him by his teacher, Takamatsu.

There is debate about the actual history of those 9 lineages. A couple are known** to be actual historical arts which Takamatsu was verifiably licensed in. The other arts cannot be traced back further than Takamatsu and the claimed history of those arts may have been invented or embellished by Takamatsu.

*(I say "officially" because Hatsumi has put so much of his own interpretation in the material he teaches that he would be totally justified in giving it a new name and declaring himself the founder of the art. However he has shown no interest in doing so.)

My personal opinion is that no educator or teacher will transmit his or her understanding of knowledge accurately, nor will the student understand it in the same way that the teacher did. although there may be elements of the initial message within the lesson, it is all left to the student's understanding. So we are all Master and Soke in our own right. I have seen this when I attend classes that are taught by my piers who attended the same class that I did under the same Soke at the same time, Yet we teach the same lesson differently each placing emphasis on different things within the lesson. Thus we do not transmit accurately what we were taught.

I have learned to recognize this a long time ago and try to teach what i was taught as accurately as possible, and yet it is not the same.

What i teach my students may be as far removed from what I was taught as chalk is from cheese!!

Kind regards

Ebrahim

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

The issue of teaching license is also over rated.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

I am fully aware of the fact that the ninja were not being primarily trained as assassins. Who has better knowledge of killing than your doctor. In fact we have modern day assassins called Doctors, Pharmacists, Surgeons etc. The ninja are alive and well my friend.

Kind regards

Ebrahim

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people are the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.

I have to make a correction to the above text.

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people trying to Judge are not the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.

 

[pgsmith]

This did not however apply to ninjitsu or the transmission thereof.

Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.

"I shall now leave you to ponder"

Ponder why we should listen to your ideas?

The issue of teaching license is also over rated.

And that is quite a telling statement.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.



Ponder why we should listen to your ideas?



And that is quite a telling statement.

It is true that anyone connected to the internet can toss around ideas. Especially when they use the internet to do their research. As well as the said research of clueless people seeking recognition. Have you ever wondered why the people present hypotheses on little known subjects? My opinion is that when these publications are pier reviewed by other clueless people it meets little resistance and soon is established as fact. Well fact is not truth and the presentation of uncontested thumb suck evidence is proof of nothing more than a vivid imagination.
The clueless have endeavoured to become experts and authorities on subjects they simply do not understand.
The ninjutsu manuals that are in circulation are but interpretations of a practitioner. This includes almost all of the antique scrolls.
Regarding modern research methodologies. I am proficient in various approaches to research. As well as various methodologies for reviewing and weighting my research as well as the research of others.
Do I need to present credentials in order to get a point across.

Those who really know will never tell. While those who don't know will almost always make the most noise.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

Yo

Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.



Ponder why we should listen to your ideas?



And that is quite a telling statement.

You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??

Have you discussed your response with others prior to posting? If so then I deserve a response from each individual that you represent.
I shall leave you with something to ponder again that is if you have the capacity as the collective which you claim.

Acupuncture has been practiced for thousands of years within various Eastern cultures. It has only recently received recognition as a valid form of auxillary medicine. Now you need to be certified by an institution before you may administer treatment. Most of these institutions have imported a said expert and now wish to sell this very art to its originators. Simply because they have turned it into a commodity.

Wooooow!!!

 

[drop bear]

Yo


You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??

Have you discussed your response with others prior to posting? If so then I deserve a response from each individual that you represent.
I shall leave you with something to ponder again that is if you have the capacity as the collective which you claim.

Acupuncture has been practiced for thousands of years within various Eastern cultures. It has only recently received recognition as a valid form of auxillary medicine. Now you need to be certified by an institution before you may administer treatment. Most of these institutions have imported a said expert and now wish to sell this very art to its originators. Simply because they have turned it into a commodity.

Wooooow!!!

So you think that is a money making issue and not an avoiding hepatitis issue?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is true that anyone connected to the internet can toss around ideas. Especially when they use the internet to do their research. As well as the said research of clueless people seeking recognition. Have you ever wondered why the people present hypotheses on little known subjects? My opinion is that when these publications are pier reviewed by other clueless people it meets little resistance and soon is established as fact. Well fact is not truth and the presentation of uncontested thumb suck evidence is proof of nothing more than a vivid imagination.
The clueless have endeavoured to become experts and authorities on subjects they simply do not understand.
The ninjutsu manuals that are in circulation are but interpretations of a practitioner. This includes almost all of the antique scrolls.
Regarding modern research methodologies. I am proficient in various approaches to research. As well as various methodologies for reviewing and weighting my research as well as the research of others.
Do I need to present credentials in order to get a point across.

Those who really know will never tell. While those who don't know will almost always make the most noise.

I am also curious why I should listen to your ideas. I just zoned out halfway through reading your posts too many times to bother asking.

 

[dunc]

What i teach my students may be as far removed from what I was taught as chalk is from cheese!!

Kind regards

Ebrahim

Hi
Im curious as to what you teach your students and what you learned originally
Thanks
D

 

[pgsmith]

You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??

I did not refer to myself in the plural, I'm only omnipotent in my wife's eyes, and I haven't claimed authority over anything. However, if this is the extent of your reading comprehension, I can now see why you have so many strange ideas with no facts to back them up.

So, are you going to answer Dunc's question, or will you try and be mysterious and evasive some more?

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

I teach my students what I have understood from what I was taught. This is not an accurate transfer of knowledge. I accept that what i was taught may have taken the same form. So I also encourage them to have many teachers and find their own paths.

 

[Steve]

Well this thread became interesting.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

So you think that is a money making issue and not an avoiding hepatitis issue?

Please clarify where hepatitis originated. In fact research the origins of most STD's. If not all.

 

[pdg]

Please clarify where hepatitis originated. In fact research the origins of most STD's. If not all.

The origins are irrelevant. (Although I am curious as to what you consider the origins to be...)

The fact is that most can be spread by sharing needles, and acupuncture needles count.

So, legislating hygiene standards to which practitioners must comply is a small part of the fight against these infections.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

The origins are irrelevant. (Although I am curious as to what you consider the origins to be...)

The fact is that most can be spread by sharing needles, and acupuncture needles count.

So, legislating hygiene standards to which practitioners must comply is a small part of the fight against these infections.

Does it require a degree to use sterile needles. I believe not!

It is simply a means of milking and packaging. In fact the sooner we realise that we are mere batteries that keeps some kids toys going the better.

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

Does it require a degree to use sterile needles. I believe not!

It is simply a means of milking and packaging. In fact the sooner we realise that we are mere batteries that keeps some kids toys going the better.

By the way I am a Bio-Medical engineer and appreciate the value of sanitary environment and practice. Let me just add that operating theatres are pig sty's compared to electronics clean rooms.