Ninjutsu contradictions

[Charlemagne]

Godsdammit, no. Nothing Cummins has ever done can be described accurately as "scholarly"... and that particular tome is deeply, deeply flawed. Not a good recommendation for anything other than promoting Antony's blood-thirsty fantasies and complete lack of regard for genuine forms of research and academic approaches.

Interesting. I didn't see anything in that book that could be described as a "bloodthirsty fantasy". He seemed to draw everything there from direct sources such as writings from those systems he discussed, but I will admit that this subject is far outside of my area.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cummins is well, inept and wrong on many accounts and as Chris mentioned he operates in his own fantasy world. If you were looking for good translations by an individual who actually trains and reads and writes Japanese at the highest level then you would want Don Roley's translations:

Books for Sale

You are not going to learn anything of value from books by Stephen Hayes or Antony Cummins. Way to much misinformation!

 

[Chris Parker]

Interesting. I didn't see anything in that book that could be described as a "bloodthirsty fantasy". He seemed to draw everything there from direct sources such as writings from those systems he discussed, but I will admit that this subject is far outside of my area.

An excerpt from the book: the samurai were a head hunting cult -- 5/05/17

The sheer ridiculousness of the passage there is astounding... an overly sensationalised, and thoroughly inaccurate description based on a failure to understand the historical realities, the culture, or even the direct sources he's taking his bizarre ideas from, as he is choosing to only follow what suits his own misconceptions, as he does over and over again. The idea of samurai being a "head hunting cult", that "head hunting was one of their core activities" is purely based in his perverse fascination with the act of beheading.... Antony rather infamously did a video of displaying heads with a decapitated pigs head.... a bit gruesome, but with him grinning like he's just been offered a lap dance. The dude's sick. His appearance on the "documentary" Samurai Head Hunters was just as bad, and just as flawed.... frankly, the guy has issues, and those pervade his "work".

I'm waiting to get permission to quote a critique on this exact text (the excerpt, and the book it came from) from Prof. Karl Friday.... who has nothing good to say for Cummins and his offerings... but suffice to say that his take is that it is entirely without merit, and that Antony has no clue what he's doing, as he fails to even understand different times in samurai history, and how that changes things.... making sweeping claims that aren't true across all periods.... and even failing to be accurate for any period at all.

I wouldn't even use it as a firelighter.

I'm also going to link an article from another koryu practitioner who, although he lists himself as very much an amateur historian and researcher, is far beyond Antony's credentials in every relevant regard. This article covers the issues with Antony's claims and methods, and uses the term "fraud" to describe him... due to the rules here, I'm not going to state if I would use the same word... but I do heartily suggest reading the article (as well as the second in the series, if you want to understand his issues on a martial level). The blog article is: Antony Cummins is a FRAUD

The basic thing is that no-one, not a single soul who come to Antony's work with actual knowledge find value in his offerings... instead, we find them to be, more than anything, a hindrance... as people who are introduced to the topics using his works without fail come away with incorrect knowledge and assumptions.... not too dissimilar to those who rely on Hayes' early works, really....

 

[Charlemagne]

An excerpt from the book: the samurai were a head hunting cult -- 5/05/17

The sheer ridiculousness of the passage there is astounding... an overly sensationalised, and thoroughly inaccurate description based on a failure to understand the historical realities, the culture, or even the direct sources he's taking his bizarre ideas from, as he is choosing to only follow what suits his own misconceptions, as he does over and over again. The idea of samurai being a "head hunting cult", that "head hunting was one of their core activities" is purely based in his perverse fascination with the act of beheading.... Antony rather infamously did a video of displaying heads with a decapitated pigs head.... a bit gruesome, but with him grinning like he's just been offered a lap dance. The dude's sick. His appearance on the "documentary" Samurai Head Hunters was just as bad, and just as flawed.... frankly, the guy has issues, and those pervade his "work".

I'm waiting to get permission to quote a critique on this exact text (the excerpt, and the book it came from) from Prof. Karl Friday.... who has nothing good to say for Cummins and his offerings... but suffice to say that his take is that it is entirely without merit, and that Antony has no clue what he's doing, as he fails to even understand different times in samurai history, and how that changes things.... making sweeping claims that aren't true across all periods.... and even failing to be accurate for any period at all.

I wouldn't even use it as a firelighter.

I'm also going to link an article from another koryu practitioner who, although he lists himself as very much an amateur historian and researcher, is far beyond Antony's credentials in every relevant regard. This article covers the issues with Antony's claims and methods, and uses the term "fraud" to describe him... due to the rules here, I'm not going to state if I would use the same word... but I do heartily suggest reading the article (as well as the second in the series, if you want to understand his issues on a martial level). The blog article is: Antony Cummins is a FRAUD

The basic thing is that no-one, not a single soul who come to Antony's work with actual knowledge find value in his offerings... instead, we find them to be, more than anything, a hindrance... as people who are introduced to the topics using his works without fail come away with incorrect knowledge and assumptions.... not too dissimilar to those who rely on Hayes' early works, really....

Interesting. Thanks for that. The book I liked doesn't contain any of that sort of thing that I recall, but it is certainly concerning that other works do.

 

[Tez3]

Thank you very much Chris for making me splutter my coffee out! I looked at the excerpt of the book and this... "In the main, a man does not like having his head cut from his neck", no sh*t Sherlock! that is some really bad or deliberately comic writing!

 

[Chris Parker]

Interesting. Thanks for that. The book I liked doesn't contain any of that sort of thing that I recall, but it is certainly concerning that other works do.

Double check your book.... that's an excerpt directly from the book you recommended.

 

[Charlemagne]

Double check your book.... that's an excerpt directly from the book you recommended.

I'll go back and look, thanks.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, I have permission to quote from the review given, with a small amount of editing at Professor Friday's request. The excerpt I linked above came up for discussion at a closed Facebook page I am a part of, which is dedicated to Classical Japanese martial arts and history (Koryu arts and the surrounding culture), and, as expected, no-one there found anything positive. The most precise and dispassionate critique, though, was from Professor Karl Friday... who, if you're unaware, is a highly respected member of the Koryu community, being a Shihan (Menkyo Kaiden holder) in Kashima Shinryu under Seki Humitake, as well as being a highly regarded academic, holding teaching positions in a number of universities, lecturing on Japanese and Asian culture, and history. He speaks and reads Japanese fluently, and presently lives in Japan, teaching there. He has published a number of incredibly well regarded books on Koryu culture, Japanese history (centred around warrior culture), and more.

Prof. Friday's response is as follows:

Basically, the article - or rather, the book it's based on - is crap. It conflates multiple periods of history, making sweeping comments (many of which are misleading and even out-and-out inaccurate for ANY period) in order to produce a silly and sensationalistic picture.

Japanese warriors were NOT a cult, in any reasonable sense of the term (unless you define "cult" as "any group of people with something in common"), much less of a "head hunting cult". They did NOT "thrust [heads of fallen warriors] onto spears or the ends of their swords and cry out in triumph to the gods of war". The practice of collecting heads as proof of military merit actually comes from China. It's described in detail in the ritsuryo codes, which predate the origin of the samurai by two centuries, and it was a simple (if somewhat grisly) accounting procedure, not a blood thirsty ritual.

Note from myself... this is not unlike the idea of Native Americans being labeled "scalping savages", despite the practice being introduced by French bounty hunters... to continue:

Heads of criminals were sometimes displayed, and sometimes paraded to the display grounds TIED to naginata, but the image of warriors slowly sawing off heads from still-living opponents while pinning them to the ground, then springing up to shout and dance about it like Tarzan after a kill is about as ridiculous as anything I've come across.

Heads were normally collected from dead opponents, and this is, in fact, one of the reasons that commanders tried to discourage the practice from the 1300's onward. Too many troops would simply collect a head or two from the first bodies they came across, and then quit the battle, since they could already claim their reward.

Prof. Friday then goes on to critique Antony Cummins himself, as well as advising on better sources for such material.

I discussed the early history of this practice in _Samurai Warfare, and the State_, and Tom Conlan discusses it in _State of War_. For a really detailed discussion, see Suzuki Masaya's _Katana to Kubitori_.

I would strongly advise ignoring anything and everything that Cummins writes. He has absolutely no training or credentials related to Japanese history, and apparently doesn't even Japanese.

For clarification, Antony Cummins does not read, nor speak Japanese at all. His "translations" are done by others, with no knowledge or understanding of the context, leaving Antony to add his own imagination to the translation work they do. This is not a good recipe for anything credible at all.

Professor Friday was then asked about the validity of Antony's work and translations, and this was his response:

... I definitely don't recommend putting stock in ANY translation, unless you can be sure that the translator has the skills (the ability to read the language of the original text, the background knowledge of the society and culture that produced it needed to properly understand and interpret it -- ALL translation is interpretation -- the needed understanding of the historical context of the text, the ability to write clearly and accurately in the target language, etc.) to do the job. Nothing about Cummins' background suggests he has any of these skills, and the fact that he believes it (is) okay to delegate primary source research and translation to associates (even if they are qualified -- and why would anyone with the skills and training to do proper historical research and translation be content to do grunt work for someone else, rather than writing his or her own books?) demonstrates a shallow and amateurish understanding of what history and historical research are about.

My thanks to Professor Friday for giving me permission to quote him here.

 

[fatninja]

Okay, From what I have learned is for Accurate info/translation of books of Ninjutsu, Don Roley is a great source, but as an aside what about books on the Samurai arts, Bushido?, Asian philosophies like the Book of 5 rings, Art of war? I don't think I'll be getting anymore Hatsumi books because it seems as though Steve Hayes has his hand in every one, True?

 

[dunc]

No!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No, Stephen Hayes certainly does not have his hand in every one. Those written twenty plus years ago, sure. If you look at the newer ones like Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai, The Way of the Ninja: Secret Techniques, Advanced Stick Fighting, Japanese Sword Fighting, The Essence of Budo and more. There are some older books that Stephen Hayes had nothing to do with like Stick Fighting or the Tetsuzan compilation or all of the books written in Japanese. There is a lot of good information out there. The book written by Paul Richardson is also a good read: Introductory history to the nine schools of the bujinkan by Paul Richardson (Paperback) - Lulu

 

[Yamabushii]

Hi. Just chiming in on this thread here and saw your post. I wanted to add my thoughts on two things you mentioned.

They didn't... although we'll come back to this... but think about it logically... if the job of a ninja was to gather information by blending in, what good does it do to be seen wearing a "uniform" that basically screamed "I'm the enemy here, and I'm doing something you don't want me to be doing!"

I don't like the term "uniform" or phrase "ninja uniform" when it comes to the ninja, and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to, but wearing all black did serve its purpose depending on the night sky and how visible the moon is or isn't, same with the dark blues, grays, browns, etc. My personal favorite "uniform" are my everyday clothes.

As a response to Fatninja, I think people really just need to stop thinking of them as "uniforms" though.

Well, that's not entirely correct either... a Wakizashi is a particular way of wearing and mounting a short (companion) sword... and the idea of a "shortened katana" first needs you to give specific dimensions for an "unshortened" one....

I don't necessarily believe Fatninja is incorrect when he says a "shortened katana". I believe he may be referring to a shinobi-gatana, but I agree with you that it wasn't a requirement or that every shinobi carried one.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi. Just chiming in on this thread here and saw your post. I wanted to add my thoughts on two things you mentioned.

Hi.

I don't like the term "uniform" or phrase "ninja uniform" when it comes to the ninja, and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to, but wearing all black did serve its purpose depending on the night sky and how visible the moon is or isn't, same with the dark blues, grays, browns, etc. My personal favorite "uniform" are my everyday clothes.

As a response to Fatninja, I think people really just need to stop thinking of them as "uniforms" though.

Yeah... you missed the context entirely. My point was that there never was anything like a "ninja uniform", as the idea is just ludicrous when you actually take it apart and think about it. Oh, and no.... black is fairly bad there unless it's a purely black night... which is so rare as to be non-existent. Blues, reds, sure... but black stands out too much against the lighter "black" of a night.

I don't necessarily believe Fatninja is incorrect when he says a "shortened katana". I believe he may be referring to a shinobi-gatana, but I agree with you that it wasn't a requirement or that every shinobi carried one.

Outside of the teachings of Togakure Ryu (with however much salt you choose to apply), there is no such thing as a "shinobi-gatana".... which, again, is the point.

 

[Yamabushii]

Yeah... you missed the context entirely.

I did say "and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to", did I not?

Oh, and no.... black is fairly bad there unless it's a purely black night... which is so rare as to be non-existent. Blues, reds, sure... but black stands out too much against the lighter "black" of a night.

Rare, yes. Non-existent, no. I'm also not referring to a jet black, and I'm also not referring to out in the open. When it's a cloudy night with no moon light and you're in an area with thick trees making it even darker, it can be handy. Is it my favorite color in a shinobi shizoku? Certainly not, but I'm not going to deny it serves a purpose.

Outside of the teachings of Togakure Ryu (with however much salt you choose to apply), there is no such thing as a "shinobi-gatana".... which, again, is the point.

Togakure Ryu is the core of what I've been taught about Ninpo, and this comes directly from Soke Tanemura himself. You don't have to accept Togakure Ryu as part of your training, but for the many of us who study it, a shinobi-gatana was legit. Which honestly comes as a surprise to me. I wasn't aware there were any students of Ninpo today who don't acknowledge it as a ryu-ha. The ninja were known for carrying shorter swords in regular length saya. It's quite literally Shinobi 101.

 

[fatninja]

Wait lemme get my popcorn! Just as an aside, I understand the folly of dressing like a stereotypical ninja, and it made no tactical sense, but I see a lot of established Bujinkan practitoners , worldwide perpetuate these images of themselves dressed as Hollywood ninjas, didn't they get the memo?

 

[KangTsai]

I've read somewhere that the ninja where often "opportunist" with their gear. Having a blade was very expensive, and they usually steal the blade from their dead opponent, and just shorten it . So it was curved, because it was a traditional samurai sword.

I've also learn that they don't find any historical writting or painting talking about straight sword. I remember that they only found one painting showing a straight blade. But they are not sure if it's a perspective view of the sword, a mistake of the painter, or an artistic choice, or if it's really show a straight blade.

But...i don't remember where i learned that. So be careful with what i say ^^' may be wrong

I would educatedly guess that is true, since ninja were almost exclusively comprised of peasant organisations. Hence the occasional use of cheap but effective weapons such as kusarigama. Also poisons.

 

[dunc]

Sword design evolved over time so you can't really be too binary about things like this

When hatsumi-sensei teaches sword he often shows how the core technique changes according to the point in history. Generally speaking straight swords evolved into tachi, then katana. Polearms even got thrown into the mix too with people re-purposing naganata blades as swords

According to their circumstances/requirements different ryuha used variants of the "popular" sword of the time. Togakure Ryu has a short blade (curved) with a normal length handle, Kukishin Den uses a longer blade with a relatively long handle and so on

There were times when people that we may categorise as ninja were in favour and employed by the powerful elite (& therefore likely had good quality weapons) and there were times when they lived in a relatively poor region of Japan (& therefore most likely didn't have access to the best weapons)

Improvised weapons and tools that also doubled up as weapons are common to all cultures and Japan (& the ryuha) are no different

 

[Ebrahim Mosaval]

Why would any Master want to issue a certificate of rank to any disciple who is trained to be an assassin??

I think that the very notion of leaving a paper trail is dangerous and would lead straight back to the master and ultimately to the clan.

Why also would the issue of authentication be raised? This as far as i understand is a western academic methodology and not something that was practiced in ancient Japan especially among the Shinobi.

I have also noticed that Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is regarded as a founder of an Authentic form. How was this established as Authentic?? And by whom??

Did he present the Western World with a certificate??

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people are the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.

Please correct me if I am wrong but This seems like the case of abortion being presided over by a Muslim Judge applying Islamic Law.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Why would any Master want to issue a certificate of rank to any disciple who is trained to be an assassin??

I think that the very notion of leaving a paper trail is dangerous and would lead straight back to the master and ultimately to the clan.

Ninjutsu, contrary to portrayal in popular media, was not an art of assassination. Practitioners were not being trained as assassins.

Why also would the issue of authentication be raised? This as far as i understand is a western academic methodology and not something that was practiced in ancient Japan especially among the Shinobi.

This is incorrect. Traditional Japanese martial arts tend to place significant emphasis on lineage, documentation of teaching licensure, and other such markers of "authenticity."

I have also noticed that Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is regarded as a founder of an Authentic form. How was this established as Authentic?? And by whom??

This is also incorrect. Hatsumi is not officially* regarded as the founder of any martial art. His title is "soke", meaning he is the person who is responsible for the transmission of the martial lineages which were handed down to him by his teacher, Takamatsu.

There is debate about the actual history of those 9 lineages. A couple are known** to be actual historical arts which Takamatsu was verifiably licensed in. The other arts cannot be traced back further than Takamatsu and the claimed history of those arts may have been invented or embellished by Takamatsu.

*(I say "officially" because Hatsumi has put so much of his own interpretation in the material he teaches that he would be totally justified in giving it a new name and declaring himself the founder of the art. However he has shown no interest in doing so.)

 

[dunc]

Generally I agree

On the lineage thing:

Sean Askew has fairly recently managed to connect Takamatsu to his teacher (Toda) and establish that Toda was an esteemed sword instructor, came from Iga (family owned a castle there), worked for the shogun on “special projects” etc and pretty much back up the oral history of certain events that happened to him

He’s regularly posting on facebook etc with his findings - which are the first time someone knowledgable has actually taken the time to do some pretty thorough research