Newbies Teachin Newbies

[saru1968]

Hi

My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.

As Dale said Shidoshi-ho is the teaching licence normally awarded 1st-4th Dan for someone under a Shidoshi.

Now as for newbies teaching...now there is the idea that someone a 7th kyu lets say showing a white belt how to roll, stances at the 7th Kyu level as the 7th Kyu is closer to that grade, bu the skill in teaching in my opinion is not showing the student what you understand but putting it in a way that the student understands..

Having a blackbelt does not equal teacher, its a skill you learn or its something you are or your not..

just a few thoughts


Gary

 

[MisterMike]

The kyu/dan system existed in Japan earlier than 120 years ago, and was first used at Buddhist temples to organize a curriculum of instruction. Later it was adopted by the Edo police for organizing a kendo curriculum, and then later was popularized by Kano applying it to Judo. Today, the kyu/dan system is used for everything from giving licenses in modern kendo or tea ceremony to assesing proficiency in languages such as English and Chinese.

That is very interesting. Do you have any dates/names of the eras and Buddhist sects that used this, and approximately when the Edo police used it as well?

Many thanks,

 

[ninhito]

What arguement???? Can you tell us what is going on?

I was argueing against a person i know over the right that she was being taught ninjutsu by a person who wasnt any dan rank at all...she believes that she is in the right then i asked her some questions just because i want to look up some other type of weapons training that i might like to get into and thats why i asked her what the art or school of two sword fighting was and she said niten ichiryu, which if im correct means two heavens/skies 1 school so it didnt sound right to me, seeing that most arts/schools that teach a certain way of fighting with weapons or body tell you, kinda, what the point, phylosophy, thought is behind that way of fighting...or their named after their creator.

 

[Dale Seago]

Niten ichi ryu -- or more properly, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu -- is in fact an actual school of swordsmanship in Japan -- see http://www.koryubooks.com/photos/niten.html

 

[safeeagle]

No not at all. I think you need to wait for your instructor to say it's ok.

 

[Kizaru]

That is very interesting. Do you have any dates/names of the eras and Buddhist sects that used this, and approximately when the Edo police used it as well?

About a year or so after I moved to Japan, I decided to try doing kendo for a little while. The dojo itself was at a Rinzai sect Buddhist temple (on the east side of Ichikawa City, two stops from Onigoe station) and the kendo teacher was the head abbot. When he was explaining the ranking system used in modern (sport) kendo, he explained to me that the dan/kyu grading system was adopted when the Edo police began practicing kendo as a sport. I don't know off the top of my head exactly when that was, I believe it was around the beginning of the Edo period/Tokugawa shogunate, but I don't know for certain. I do know however, that I've seen the same thing written in alot of books, and I'm sure if you asked around or did a little searching on the internet, you could probably find an exact date.

Best of luck.
:asian:

 

[davidg553]

I am curious, being that you are in Washington, do you know of any good Bujinkan Dojos where I might sit in and observe in Oregon or Southern Washington? That might be knid of interesting as well. I have serached on winjutsu for Dojo's in Oregon, and was a little unsure of the results, I don't want to drive 3 hours to Bend to observe an hour of training that might be a joke, know what I mean?

-firegarden

White Lion Tenchijin Bujinkan is in Portland.

Aric Keith is in Vancouver, WA. I don't have his information but I did see him make a post on here.

 

[davidg553]

Hi

My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.
Gary

Ed Lomax started teaching as a very low kyuu grade and considering where he is now I think he did ok for himself. My instructor started a training group when he was a lowly whitebelt and he has done ok for himself as well.

 

[rutherford]

Ed Lomax started teaching as a very low kyuu grade and considering where he is now I think he did ok for himself. My instructor started a training group when he was a lowly whitebelt and he has done ok for himself as well.

My guess is that Ed Lomax, your instructor, and their students all made regular visits to licensed Shidoshi.

 

[Kreth]

My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.

I started out in a similar situation. At the time, there were no shidoshi in upstate NY further north than Westchester. My instructor started a training group as a 5th kyu and every other week, he would travel to train under a shidoshi. He was very clear on the fact that he was not a licensed instructor, and the techniques he was showing were subject to change as his understanding of them improved.
I don't see a problem with it as long as the senior student is in fact regularly training under a licensed shidoshi, and does not try to set themselves up as an authority.

Jeff

 

[Henso]

I'd like to start, before I give my opinion, by stating that I am one of the said "newbies" who teaches with authorization from my instructor, Ed "Papa-san" Martin. I am currently a Yondan, and it is my habit to submit members of my training group to Ed, when I think they are ready for testing, and the decision on whether or not to award rank it is based upon his assessment alone. Due to the scarcity of BBT teachers, in some areas, this is the only way to expose interested parties to Hatsumi Sensei's extarordinary legacy.

That having been said, I aware that there is an issue of competancy among some supposed Dan grade practitioners, and that we must all be resolute in guarding against undermining the reputation of the art that we practice. First and foremost, this is the responsibilty of the individual to decline rank that he has not earned, and of the teacher to resist the impulse to reward students for attendance or tenure.

One of the simplest ways of doing this is to insist upon an ability to demonstrate a set of skills that is uniform for all, and to abide by this absolutely. In addition to the Kamae, Ukemi/taihenjutsu, Sanshin No Kata, Koshi Kihon Sanpo, Torite Goho, and for lack of a more accurate term, various Ningu, I personnly think that a shodan be required to have substantive knowlegde of the nine Ryuha, and the ability to name and demonstrate certain waza from those where the knowledge is publically available.

Lastly, I personally insist upon students demonstrating the ability to use the techniques in unrehearsed street style attacks, as a gauge of their taijutsu. At the end of the day, this is the only meaningful measure of parctitioner's true abilities, and indeed, nobody should be a shodan, if they lack this ability.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I think there are already far too many people in the Bujinkan who are waaaaaay to caught up in teaching and running off establishing training groups, rather than bettering themselves.

True, there may be lots of seriously interested potential students living in areas where Bujinkan training is currently unavailable. But ultimately I think we're doing them a disservice if we don't take the time to improve ourselves enough in order to correctly demonstrate Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu the way it deserves.

 

[Henso]

I think there are already far too many people in the Bujinkan who are waaaaaay to caught up in teaching and running off establishing training groups, rather than bettering themselves.

Generally, I would tend to agree, however, I would qualify this by saying that our reaction to the lack of quality in some practitioners, should not result in us proscribing all those below Godan from teaching. The Bujinkan is not unique in having Shodan-Yondan teaching, though we would all benefit from a more rigourous enforcement of standards required to reach these grades.

In addition to this I can personally attest to the fact that teaching others the "basics" compels one to focus on them more, which is extremely beneficial, as it is always tempting to move onto more glamourous techniques. I have found that this has expedited improvements in my taijutsu.

True, there may be lots of seriously interested potential students living in areas where Bujinkan training is currently unavailable. But ultimately I think we're doing them a disservice if we don't take the time to improve ourselves enough in order to correctly demonstrate Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu the way it deserves.

Again, while I see your point, I would like to point out that anyone between the ranks of Shodan-Yondan, who cannot demonstrate BBT properly, is not. Additionally, anyone legitimately of these ranks has far more knowledge than any novice could possibily digest, and is not so far removed from their lack of experience, not to remember what it was like to not be able to execute basic BBT, which I'm sure all of us will attest is extremely frustrating at first.

Lastly, I would like to point out that had the rule of nobody but Godan and above ever been in place, none of us here would ever have heard of this art, let alone be practicing it. Indeed, when one considers the experience of Hayes, Daniel and a myriad other individuals who popularized this art, almost to a fault, they were teaching before reaching Godan.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Generally, I would tend to agree, however, I would qualify this by saying that our reaction to the lack of quality in some practitioners, should not result in us proscribing all those below Godan from teaching.

Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances. This applies for people at godan as well.

The Bujinkan is not unique in having Shodan-Yondan teaching, though we would all benefit from a more rigourous enforcement of standards required to reach these grades.

We would benefit more from training with lots and lots of different people, IMHO.

In addition to this I can personally attest to the fact that teaching others the "basics" compels one to focus on them more, which is extremely beneficial, as it is always tempting to move onto more glamourous techniques.

Up until around september of 2003, I made that distinction as well...

Again, while I see your point, I would like to point out that anyone between the ranks of Shodan-Yondan, who cannot demonstrate BBT
properly, is not.

That would drastically lessen the number of Bujinkan practitioners around the world, of course...

Additionally, anyone legitimately of these ranks has far more knowledge than any novice could possibily digest,

And how do you define legitimate? A while ago at another board, a person whose name I'd prefer not to mention, wondered why he as a godan wasn't granted the respect he thought he deserved from someone of a lesser rank. All I have to say is that I see no reason for anyone to respect a person with godan whose punches repeatedly end up with his knee pointing at nine o'clock, while his fist is pointing at twelve o'clock.

Lastly, I would like to point out that had the rule of nobody but Godan and above ever been in place, none of us here would ever have heard of this art, let alone be practicing it.

Dunno about that, what rank was Doron when he left Japan?

Indeed, when one considers the experience of Hayes, Daniel and a myriad other individuals who popularized this art, almost to a fault, they were teaching before reaching Godan.

And how many of them travel to Japan regularly nowadays?

 

[Henso]

Dunno about that, what rank was Doron when he left Japan?

Just about 100% certain he was a Yondan, and passed the Godan test on a return visit to Japan. I am almost entirely in agreement with you as to the quality assurance issue, but, a reaction that went beyond proper enforcement of traditional standards would be as invidious as the lack of enforcement currently is. Back to the matter of Doron, see the attached link.

http://starbuck.virtualave.net/main/ninpo/godan.htm

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Aiight, my bad about Doron.

Anyhow, at my dojo, apart from our head instructor, we have eight people with dan ranks that when put together add up to about 45. All of them are more than capable of running their own training groups (which two of them, both under godan, pretty much did for a while). Yet they all prefer to stay together and train to improve themselves. That tells me something, at least.
I don't think anyone would claim that a wide availability of quality Bujinkan teachers is undesirable. On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if all these small training groups aren't in a way doing a disservice to the Bujinkan in the public eye as far as completeness, competence and combat/self defense effectivity is concerned. It's usually in smaller groups that you hear people complaining about not seeing or being taught this or that..."blah blah blah, the Bujinkan has no defense against hooks, shoots and knives, and I never broke a sweat during training or was allowed to do some heavy bag/pad work..."

 

[Henso]

I'm starting to wonder if all these small training groups aren't in a way doing a disservice to the Bujinkan in the public eye as far as completeness, competence and combat/self defense effectivity is concerned. It's usually in smaller groups that you hear people complaining about not seeing or being taught this or that..."blah blah blah, the Bujinkan has no defense against hooks, shoots and knives, and I never broke a sweat during training or was allowed to do some heavy bag/pad work..."

I would agree that there is a disservice being done, but, it is not caused by the existence of small training groups. It is caused by teachers who promote students that are not ready, and by students whose ego's cloud their own understanding of their abilities or lack thereof.

I too have seen people who cannot utilize taijutsu against the most mundane attacks, and yet hold Dan ranking. As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it. That having been said, I can't advocate 1st to 4th Dan being prohibited from having training groups, but, rather that each and every person be held to a high standard akin to what was expected before the art became widely popular, even if this means revoking rank from those who don't deserve it.

 

[Kreth]

I would agree that there is a disservice being done, but, it is not caused by the existence of small training groups. It is caused by teachers who promote students that are not ready, and by students whose ego's cloud their own understanding of their abilities or lack thereof.

Unfortunately, some of these "students" hold very high rankings...

I too have seen people who cannot utilize taijutsu against the most mundane attacks, and yet hold Dan ranking. As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it.

Hatsumi sensei has been quoted as saying regarding the 1,000 shidoshi milestone (paraphrasing), "500 good, 500 bad." Personally, I think his goal may have been to spur shidoshi to further their own training so as not to be in the "bad" crowd.
Now, given that Hatsumi sensei seems to have a laissez-faire attitude about the situation, what do you suggest be done?

That having been said, I can't advocate 1st to 4th Dan being prohibited from having training groups, but, rather that each and every person be held to a high standard akin to what was expected before the art became widely popular, even if this means revoking rank from those who don't deserve it.

I agree with the first part of this paragraph, provided that there is a link at some level to what's being done in Japan. However, how do you propose revoking rank that has been issued through Hatsumi sensei?
For what it's worth, I also feel that there are many people in the Bujinkan whose menkyo is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'm very careful about the people I choose to train under. But, I don't feel it's my place to impose what I look for in an instructor on others...

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But, I don't feel it's my place to impose what I look for in an instructor on others...

I do, if I come across people who have been training for more than a year and have yet to have heard kihon happo being MENTIONED by their instructor...

 

[Henso]

Unfortunately, some of these "students" hold very high rankings...

However, how do you propose revoking rank that has been issued through Hatsumi sensei?

For what it's worth, I also feel that there are many people in the Bujinkan whose menkyo is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'm very careful about the people I choose to train under. But, I don't feel it's my place to impose what I look for in an instructor on others...
Jeff

As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.

As concerns ranking adjustments, let me start out by saying that thankfully that is not my responsibility, as it is a huge mess. However, it would be just if, for instance, if going forward all future testing required a demonstration of previously required skills, making the student responsible to either make up any ground they need to, or be ranked upon performance alone. This would have to based upon a uniform set of standards that are known by all in advance. This way, each individual would be responsible for his own rank. this is what I do with students before I pass them onto Ed martin for his assessment.

As concerns the last protion of your remarks, as shown above, I agree with everything you said, except the part about imposing upon others what they should seek in a teacher, (assuming that I understand your intent) as it seems to me a pointless exercise to question quality without proposing the imposition of uniform standards.