New Weapons of Wing Chun

[geezer]

Folks, We're drifting off track here. This thread is not about the USMC. It is about the use of modern day weapons in WC...

Well, to get back on track, I know that way back when I trained with GM Leung Ting, he showed us ways to apply our standard WT techniques to defend against common modern weapons attacks...you know clubs, knives, beer bottles and that sort of thing. But we didn't train using improvised weapons ourselves. I got into that through Escrima ...and by watching old Jackie Can movies (LOL)--he's always grabbing something!

Anyway, I think that being able to pick up and use whatever your environment presents is a terrific ability. I mean, when it comes to real self defense, who wants to fight fair? Not me.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent way to get back on topic geezer. Thankyou for that....

Well, to get back on track, I know that way back when I trained with GM Leung Ting, he showed us ways to apply our standard WT techniques to defend against common modern weapons attacks...you know clubs, knives, beer bottles and that sort of thing. But we didn't train using improvised weapons ourselves. I got into that through Escrima ...and by watching old Jackie Can movies (LOL)--he's always grabbing something!

Anyway, I think that being able to pick up and use whatever your environment presents is a terrific ability. I mean, when it comes to real self defense, who wants to fight fair? Not me.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Okay Mr. Devil Dog....Now you lost me. What do you mean why your not laughing...Are you a marine?

If you look at what my occupation is in my profile, you'll see that I'm a Marine. So, I'm not laughing at the jokes. Oh, and Semper Fi is short for Semper Fidelis, which means 'always faithful'.

 

[Si-Je]

"If force advances, deflect. If force retreats, advance. If force detatches, attack." Something my Sensei/Sifu tells us quite alot. However, every MCMAP/MOUT/Combat Drill I've been taught involves "no matter what, agress towards the enemy". I've noticed the Wing Chun philosophy fits in better with what the Army does. Not perfectly, but better.

I was wondering what you ment, by what the Army does? (I'm a civy, pardon
But, in a real way especially with weapons involved the mentality of "no matter what, agress towards the enemy", is what I've been taught with WC/WT. Deflection becomes and allows you to attack at the same time your defending. Especially if the attacker has a weapon. You don't want to ***** foot around and give them any room to use the weapon. You want their space, just as if you both were empty handed, and you want to take that space away from them.

That's what Hubbie teaches in all weapons defense and usagae. I guess it's more from his USMC mentality and training than traditional WC/WT, but I see that the principles, and concepts of WC/WT match this mindset.
i.e. they stab at you you deflect as you step into their space/stance and attack. They retract you follow, you stay on their butt until you get the weapon away or more importantly (and I think too many martial arts styles focus too much on the weapon) you attack the "head" or "legs" behind the attacking weapon.
Take out the general, the soldiers fall.
Right?

 

[Si-Je]

If you look at what my occupation is in my profile, you'll see that I'm a Marine. So, I'm not laughing at the jokes. Oh, and Semper Fi is short for Semper Fidelis, which means 'always faithful'.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, just playing. Sorry if I offended. Hubbie's very offhanded with his jokes and stuff sometimes, I am too. Don't mean any harm by them.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

If you look at what my occupation is in my profile, you'll see that I'm a Marine. So, I'm not laughing at the jokes. Oh, and Semper Fi is short for Semper Fidelis, which means 'always faithful'.

From one Devil Dog to another, get a sence of humor.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I was wondering what you ment, by what the Army does? (I'm a civy, pardon

Sure, I geuss I shouldn't assume things. In the MCMAP I've been taught, every attack, block, and most counters include a step forward. While we do teach how to step back, I've never seen it done in a technique. From the Army combatives I've seen, it's mostly about reacting to what your opponent does. OK, the Army combatives I've seen were mostly BJJ. Very, very, very simple BJJ. And all of it is from the ground. Here's another example.
Lets say the two of us were in the same unit, squad, and fire team. Better yet, I'm the SAW Gunner, you're the A-Gunner, so you would be my assistant. Yes, non-infantry Marines are organised in the same way as infantry units. Now, we're out on a patrol (also something that non-infantry Marines do). We take small arms fire from our right, and the patrol leader shouts "Contact right! Contact right". Everyone forms up on a line, weapons facing toward the enemy, we do this while repeating "Contact right! Contact right!" to make sure everyone heard the command. Everyone should now be opening fire.
This is were things change between The Army and the Marines. The Marines begin "buddy rushes". The Marine fireteam is (normally) four people (Rifleman, team leader, SAW Gunner, and A-Gunner). During Buddy rushes, the Rifleman and the Team Leader become a buddy team, and the SAW and A Gunners become buddies. The Rifleman and the SAW gunner move first. They shout "-position- Moving!" There buddy responds with "Move!". This way, every one is on the same page. Then when he gets back down, he shouts "-position- Set!", and his buddy starts the process. This is continued until the enemy is destroyed/retreats/or is engaged in close quarters.
The Army reacts a little differnitly from what I understand. Unless the patrol thinks they massivly out number the enemy, he's going to have his troops basicly just sit and return fire (if force advances, deflect). Once the enemy is dead or retreating, the patrol advances (if force retreats, advance). If the enemy just up and leaves, the patrol will conture attack (if force detaches, attack).

Take out the general, the soldiers fall.
Right?

Actually, the Marines will normally do things at the squad level, led by the NCO in charge of the squad. The Patrol Leader in the above scenario, would probably a Sergeant or Staff Sergeant. The nice thing about Marine Units, they're designed so that people from lower ranks can fill up higher commanding units if needed. One of my Combat Instructors from MCT told us that when he was a Lance Corporal, he was basicly a squad leader. His fireteam leader, and squad leader were both killed, and he took charge. Keep in mind, a Lance Corporal isn't even an NCO.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay, I see. Leap frog.
This is good WC/WT mentality. see look. (this is what hubbie teaches)
ex. man has a knife, I do not.
1. man jabs with knife to stomach, I shift my butt back to move stomach out of the way. At the same time deflecting the knife arm with gan sau movement.
2. gan sau moves knife arm across opponent's body away from mine you follow arm (touching not grabbing the knife arm) and your arm slides up their arm to tan sau all the way to their neck.
3. as you do this arm movements, AT THE SAME TIME, your stepping in a "lunge" position till the front of your body is totally up against their side.
4. here the knife arm is up, your arm is under the armpit in choke position at their neck. You don't have "control" of the weapon, you have control of the arm weilding the weapon.
5. here your stance is taking over their stance, thus unbalancing them with your legs as you "choke" or throw them with their neck and knife arm.

Of course, you stop the foot, kick the knee, knee the groin/stomach, grab the hair or helmet from behind, or gouge eyes all as you come into body contact and choke position with opponent. When they are taken to the ground, you stomp their face, throat, kick the head, always keeping contact with knife arm, you break knife arm, take weapon, etc. There is alot you can do here, and still be on your feet for a fire fight, or for the next soldier/attacker.

I ment that too many martial arts styles compete with the opponent's weapon, and focus too much on gaining "control" of the weapon and forget to attack the attacker. If I use JJJ I'd grab the knife wrist and try to manipulate a joint lock or forcefully move their weapon arm keeping it from me. While I do this, the opponent, punches, kicks, head buts, etc. Bot my hands are on one hand while they have another free hand. Not advantageous.
It's a different approach to fighting against an armed attacker when unarmed. This he learned in MCMAP as a third degree blackbelt in the USMC. But, he still applies WC/WT principles and concept of moving always forward into your attackers attack and space.
When we deflect a punch or weapon, we are NOT going backwards to defend, we are advancing as we deflect the attack and returning "fire" at the same time.

So, your deflection would be "team one" yelling "contact!" the deflection rushes forward to engage, your attack would be like "team two" yelling "move, move!" and backing up team one with fire.

p.s. I really wish the Army wasn't playing around with BJJ. It hurts me bad. They already don't get the quality time in training combatives like the marines do, and I'd wish they'd focus what little time they have to train on more productive modes of combat.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Leap frog is the basic idea. What your hubbie teaches and what my Sensei/Sifu teaches are differnit mentalities from what I can see. It may be that your hubbie is adding in a MCMAP mentality or it may be a differnce in the branch. We do Moy Yat, by the way.

The reason why the Army does very basic BJJ for there combatives is to give them somthing to do, that they probably wont be able to use in, say, a bar fight (I think). From what I can tell, the Army rarely gets into close quarters combat. The last time the comand 'fix bayonets' was given was the very beginning of WWII. We have done bayonet charges in Iraq. So, the Army doesn't really need a very good combatives program. They'd never use it. But, Marines, we use our combatives.

 

[Si-Je]

oh, I'm not familiar with alot of the WT/WC lineages, just Sifu Fung, and Sifu Emin, that's all I know about Wing Chun.

It seems the Army doesn't get into combatives as much, but it makes me think of my Dad. He was Army in Vietnam, and he ended up using ALOT of hand to hand in the city, and the jungle. Yet, they didn't even teach the Marines anywhere what they do now. Much less the Army.
He carried a .45, a machette, and a knife on him just about everywhere. They had to learn hand to hand on the fly there, I'd hate the Army guys now to be in that same situation. I'd figure they would learn from the past.

But, the Marines do definately use way more of their combat training. And Hubbie does incorporate the MCMAP training he learned a little bit, mostly with the ground fighting and weapons training. And he incorporates WC/WT concepts and principles into the MCMAP weapons he teaches. All the WT/WC is the same as what he was taught by his two teachers.
Heck, that one technique he's been working with me on the knife jab for about a year. (we only run through it once or twice a month, not alot of focus there or time to train it) So, I'm just now starting to get the gist of what he's teaching with the weapons.

 

[CuongNhuka]

oh, I'm not familiar with alot of the WT/WC lineages, just Sifu Fung, and Sifu Emin, that's all I know about Wing Chun.

Same on my side with Moy Yat.

I've read some Army Field Manuels, and compared it to what I was taught. The Army seems to fight the last war, and the Marines try to fight this one, while being ready for the last one. What the Army does is smart, but if the enemy doesn't fight like the last one, it takes longer to get ready. What the Marines do is smart, unless the enemy fights like the last one, then you have to refocus training. Pick your poison I geuss.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Maybe people with more than a couple weeks boot and a little (out of date) book learning would be more credible? Either way, what does any of this have to do with Wing Chun? Last I checked, neither the US Army or the USMC fight with butterfly swords, or bo, and I haven't found a branch of Wing Chun that drills with fire arms. Maybe this topic could be on Wing Chun, and the military branch penis examining taken someplace else where the rutting of dogs, waving of pricks, and telling of tall tales of fiction and seamen is enjoyed? Penthouse Letters comes to my mind actually.

 

[Si-Je]

Maybe people with more than a couple weeks boot and a little (out of date) book learning would be more credible? Either way, what does any of this have to do with Wing Chun? Last I checked, neither the US Army or the USMC fight with butterfly swords, or bo, and I haven't found a branch of Wing Chun that drills with fire arms. Maybe this topic could be on Wing Chun, and the military branch penis examining taken someplace else where the rutting of dogs, waving of pricks, and telling of tall tales of fiction and seamen is enjoyed? Penthouse Letters comes to my mind actually.

Wow.. just wow. I was really digging your Black Adder pic and am a big fan of that show. Thought you were cool.
What is being discussed here is the "mindset of wing chun." and the introduction of wing chun theory, principles, and training in useage of weaponry for today. I gave a great breakdown of knife defense that is ACTUALLY used in USMC MCMAP, but that seems to have been missed.
Mystic Wolf's fellow marine pal has been bringing me up to speed with the battle mentality difference between the Army and the USMC in correlation to WC/WT approach to fighting with or without weapons.
Wing Chun is a more mental approach to your "problem" or conflict than anything else you train as a fighter. If your theory, strategy, and concept is wrong, you lose the fight. In war with military weaponry your dead.

No one's bragging here, or swinging any appendenges around, we're talking war strategy, fight and defense strategy.

Okay, how would you use a gun with WC/WT principles and concepts?
1. Keep it in the centerline when you aim, or when you shoot your target.
2. Follow up after first shot. (chain punching)
3. Adapt and flow from one attacker to another.
4. keep your movements small and precise when shooting, aiming, or changing targets.
5. "minimum amount of brute strength" don't waste ammo. (one shot one kill, effeciency, follow through with next shots only if target isn't down)
6. attack and defend at the same time. (don't shoot at attacking target without "covering" yourself first. no need to run screaming into the night in the open shooting everywhere with no "cover".)
7. Attack is defense, defense is attack each the cause and result of the other. (they shoot at you, you shoot back, figure it out)

Here are some very very basic WC/WT concepts and principles that could be used in modern warfare with modern weapons.
And I'm just a civy, but as Einsten says: " imagination is more important than knowledge."

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

My dear lady, me personally, I would call in air support and let them convert the enemy into spare parts and scrap metal, while hoping they were holding the map right side up, but that's just me. Of course, coolness is a matter of perspective, and mine measures in degrees Kelvin. My comments were of course aimed at the young Ploppy who has yet to taste the quality of tea in the sandbox, and who hasn't yet seen the elephant. Not at the remainder of the conversation, which I might add has been rather interesting. But if I were to hazard a more direct response to the question, I would say I would draw them in, execute a devastating attack at their vital points with pin point precision and careful targeting of their vitals, then efficiently escape while evading any counter strike. If I were to hazard a response that is.

 

[Si-Je]

I knew you must be cool, even if you measure it in Kelvin! lol!
Just lovely, I love it.
It's a weird topic, and not very martial artist in it's approach to martial training. But, an interesting topic and train of thought. Was having fun with the marine, living with one is an adventure and they are fun to chat up.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Was having fun with the marine .... and they are fun to chat up.

thank you

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-jks9199
-MT Moderator-

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je I believe he was offended by what I said. An maybe what Hubbie was talking about...lol....

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, just playing. Sorry if I offended. Hubbie's very offhanded with his jokes and stuff sometimes, I am too. Don't mean any harm by them.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Mystic I don't think he knows your Marine?

You may have educate him....

From one Devil Dog to another, get a sence of humor.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Actually I remember when some of Late Uncles often told me how they learn how to kill a man with their bare hands. They were in the Army and learn some pretty nasty techniques. I am not sure what style they learn. But they are deceased now. I know one of my uncles fought in North Korea I think in the fifties maybe or the sixities. I can't remember.

oh, I'm not familiar with alot of the WT/WC lineages, just Sifu Fung, and Sifu Emin, that's all I know about Wing Chun.

It seems the Army doesn't get into combatives as much, but it makes me think of my Dad. He was Army in Vietnam, and he ended up using ALOT of hand to hand in the city, and the jungle. Yet, they didn't even teach the Marines anywhere what they do now. Much less the Army.
He carried a .45, a machette, and a knife on him just about everywhere. They had to learn hand to hand on the fly there, I'd hate the Army guys now to be in that same situation. I'd figure they would learn from the past.

But, the Marines do definately use way more of their combat training. And Hubbie does incorporate the MCMAP training he learned a little bit, mostly with the ground fighting and weapons training. And he incorporates WC/WT concepts and principles into the MCMAP weapons he teaches. All the WT/WC is the same as what he was taught by his two teachers.
Heck, that one technique he's been working with me on the knife jab for about a year. (we only run through it once or twice a month, not alot of focus there or time to train it) So, I'm just now starting to get the gist of what he's teaching with the weapons.