On another thread, Spartan asked what was the value and effectiveness of Wing Chun's weapons. How do they compare with FMA weaponry and so on. I have my own opinion on the value of the long pole and the bart cham do, or butterfly swords, but what do the rest of you think?
The Value of Wing Chun/Tsun Weapons
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Ask yourself this,if the weapons are as effective as the boxing system itself,
utilizing it's forward,double-multi-limbed, straight-in-line approach,then it speaks for itself.I have witnessed the Bart Cham Dao,in principle,not too much different than the hand skills.Even if I were an above average weapons expert, I would not want to tangle with someone who possessed Bart Cham Dao.
utilizing it's forward,double-multi-limbed, straight-in-line approach,then it speaks for itself.I have witnessed the Bart Cham Dao,in principle,not too much different than the hand skills.Even if I were an above average weapons expert, I would not want to tangle with someone who possessed Bart Cham Dao.
Remember that the long pole doesn't have to be a long pole
I have been in situations where pool cues have been available
Also in the UK, if you have a fight where you use a pole of any kind, you are not going to get as much trouble with the law as say if you were walking around with a samuria sword
I could (and have) walked down the street with a long pole and people just assume that it is part of scaffolding etc
Walk down the street with a sword or nunchakus and you are likely to come up against armed police
With regards to effectiveness (imagine for a moment there are no laws), the butterfly knives are amongst the best and easiest weapons to use
With a samurai sword you are committed with both hands, whereas with butterfly knives you still have one knife defending while the other attacks...
I don't feel that nunchakus are very effective unless you are extremely skilled (ie at close range they are neutralized, whereas knives are still dangerous)
Bear in mind that the wing chun weapons are really just another stage of training. Anyone who takes the weapons out with them need their head checked
I have been in situations where pool cues have been available
Also in the UK, if you have a fight where you use a pole of any kind, you are not going to get as much trouble with the law as say if you were walking around with a samuria sword
I could (and have) walked down the street with a long pole and people just assume that it is part of scaffolding etc
Walk down the street with a sword or nunchakus and you are likely to come up against armed police
With regards to effectiveness (imagine for a moment there are no laws), the butterfly knives are amongst the best and easiest weapons to use
With a samurai sword you are committed with both hands, whereas with butterfly knives you still have one knife defending while the other attacks...
I don't feel that nunchakus are very effective unless you are extremely skilled (ie at close range they are neutralized, whereas knives are still dangerous)
Bear in mind that the wing chun weapons are really just another stage of training. Anyone who takes the weapons out with them need their head checked
I have been in Wing Chun for 26 years now and FMA's for 17 years. I personally think that the WC long pole and butterfly swords are crap for really combat. There is really no comparison to FMA's. This does not mean I don't practice them. I do for traditional sake. But not for being able to defend myself with them.
Danny T
Senior Master
The long pole training in WC today isnÂ’t for combat but for the attributes developed within the training. Certainly some of the movements can be used in a military combat aspect within bayonet action but for the average person in everyday life not much. The deep stance used further develops the leg strength and can be used in low entries and takedowns if needed. The manipulation of the pole further develops arm, shoulder, and back strength as well as different footwork and stance integration. It also reinforces the principle of forward pressure and centerline control no matter what is in oneÂ’s hands.
The training of the bart cham do again further develops attributes as well as reinforces many already developed by the time one gets to that level of training. There should be a strong development of blade awareness and positioning as well as reinforcement of the hand and body positioning in relation to oneÂ’s opponent. The simplicity of the pole and butterfly sword work should also be understood as to the directness of weapon attacks and counter attacks. Each movement should place the practitioner in a position of advantage to defend and attack within the same movement.
I also have trained for quite sometime in Wing Chun as well as a Filipino bladed art and the similarities are very strong. The weapons arenÂ’t for todayÂ’s combat but what one learns, develops, and is able to use from the training and the movements that are used are very effective.
Danny
The training of the bart cham do again further develops attributes as well as reinforces many already developed by the time one gets to that level of training. There should be a strong development of blade awareness and positioning as well as reinforcement of the hand and body positioning in relation to oneÂ’s opponent. The simplicity of the pole and butterfly sword work should also be understood as to the directness of weapon attacks and counter attacks. Each movement should place the practitioner in a position of advantage to defend and attack within the same movement.
I also have trained for quite sometime in Wing Chun as well as a Filipino bladed art and the similarities are very strong. The weapons arenÂ’t for todayÂ’s combat but what one learns, develops, and is able to use from the training and the movements that are used are very effective.
Danny
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Very little in Traditional Martial Arts is meant as a direct translation. So, your not going to go into a fight and go "alright, lets do Chi Sao", or "lets do Sinawali". However, what is developed in these areas (sensitivity, flow, and reactions) translate to a fight. The same principle holds for the weapons employed in Wing Chun. The Long Pole and Butterfly Swords help develop force. And the Pole movements can be applied to a disarm of certain weapons (like rifle). The Butterfly Swords movements could probably be applied to disarmed techniques (like with Filiphino weapons).
But, what do I know?
But, what do I know?
A few observations: First, most of the people posting on this page (me, qwksilver, Kamon Guy, Gurokevin, Danny T...) all have experience or interest in the FMA's as well as Wing Chun/Tsun. That's what I referred to as a WC-FMA "connection" on another thread--people who are drawn to one are often drawn to the other. Curious. Another thing, most agree that the WC weapons have their greatest value in the honing of skills and the conditioning they provide. That is to say, they build useful skills and strength even though they are not the kinds of weapons that you are likely to actually use for self defense. This also reminds me of the FMA's which, broadly speaking, stress "transition" or being able to apply the same concepts to a variety of weapons as well as empty hands. To me, the more unexpected of the two traditional WC weapons is the long pole because of the range and stances. Yet in its "sticking" technique and economy of movement, it is still pure Wing Chun. This just reinforces point that the shape and form of Wing Chun flow from the concepts of efficiency, practicality and "borrowing" your opponent's force. So, when using the long pole, these same concepts demand adjustments in the outward form of Wing Chun, although the essence remains the same. I think that's pretty cool. Finally, since in many branches of WC, the weapons training is held back for many years, I've seen a lot of very different versions of the weapons forms taught. Most versions of Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu closely resemble each other. The branches diverge more noticeably as you progress on through Biu Tze and Mook Yan Jong. Finally, in the long pole and bart cham dao, the branches are sometimes completely different! I believe this is because many of the most prominent Si-fus were taught little or none of Yip Man's version of these weapons. Instead, they picked up parts of the forms piece-meal, improvising the rest. I know for a fact that the head of one prominent organization, who is world renowned as a fighter, is in this situation. And if you look at what many other "masters" teach, it's clear that they are in the same boat. Of course, if what they teach is really good, who cares.
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
This is important to note.
I have some friends that do kenjutsu in a hardcore way. These guys upper body is so friking dense that hitting them is like hitting solid walls...
Remember that before, there weren't many gyms with weights...
There were weapons... huge hardwood poles (used for scene changes in chinese opera) and butterfly swords.
The practice of these weapons is a real workou, and the Baat Cham dao has good effects on arms and wrist strength and explosivity.
Thus the weapons training is mostly for those benefits. Of course, they have combat applications, yet we don't all work in an opera where those poles are available, and carrying knives that big would get s in legal trouble...
So as with the times, we can adapt. Here we have clubs, knives and machetes handy... so I work on those. Also, with firearms. Yet it is undeniable that some sort of auxiliary and complementary training is useful, advisable and prudent for better performance.
Thus if you don't practice the weapons for the attribute improvements they give, it is important to find other training that does the same.
Thus the question is... what specific attributes do the weapons train?
When that is answered and substituted by other means, that is when you can say that you have limited benefit from training them.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
This is important to note.
I have some friends that do kenjutsu in a hardcore way. These guys upper body is so friking dense that hitting them is like hitting solid walls...
Remember that before, there weren't many gyms with weights...
There were weapons... huge hardwood poles (used for scene changes in chinese opera) and butterfly swords.
The practice of these weapons is a real workou, and the Baat Cham dao has good effects on arms and wrist strength and explosivity.
Thus the weapons training is mostly for those benefits. Of course, they have combat applications, yet we don't all work in an opera where those poles are available, and carrying knives that big would get s in legal trouble...
So as with the times, we can adapt. Here we have clubs, knives and machetes handy... so I work on those. Also, with firearms. Yet it is undeniable that some sort of auxiliary and complementary training is useful, advisable and prudent for better performance.
Thus if you don't practice the weapons for the attribute improvements they give, it is important to find other training that does the same.
Thus the question is... what specific attributes do the weapons train?
When that is answered and substituted by other means, that is when you can say that you have limited benefit from training them.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
Orale Profe! I agree--and I've advocated being as creative as you can in analyzing the "specific attributes" you need and finding interesting and effective ways to train them. For one thing, being creative makes the hard work of training less boring.
On another topic--I see from your bio that you are a "Kenpo and Wing Chun" trainer. Although both arts have a lot of sophistication coming from some common Chinese roots, Wing Chun is all about simplicity and practicality, but my experiences with Kenpo have indicated that it is nearly the opposite. Do you have any problems reconciling these two diametricly opposed philosophies?
Overall, I'm feeling much more enlightened - wc weapons forms are just another training tool. Wow, I honestly thought those forms were meant to teach a practitioner the proper use of a particular weapon.
With that said, how would a wing chunner approach the use of weapons? What weapons might they select given their martial arts attributes? Also, in their employment of weaponry, would their techniques resemble anything close to the long pole/ butterfly sword forms?
With that said, how would a wing chunner approach the use of weapons? What weapons might they select given their martial arts attributes? Also, in their employment of weaponry, would their techniques resemble anything close to the long pole/ butterfly sword forms?
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
First, to answer Mr. Geezer.
American Kenpo has an interesting teaching method.
People learn either by taking a principle that is general and learning how to apply it to specific situations. Wing Chun tend to be like this, thus you learn several principal rules and several drills that evolve with the understandings that are derived from the forms by a qualified instructor that can "extract" the knowledge from the teaching aids (forms). Tis is called "high chunk learning" or "global scope".
Other people learn better by specific examples. By learning many examples they can extrapolate the general principles that will guide them when they encounter new situations. From Basics, to complexity (apparent), to sophisticated simplicity (you stack a lot of stuff into movements which to the untrained eye are invisible... the essence of internal training!)...
This is called "small chunk learning" or "specific scope". The use of both methods yields best results overall, since the ability to go from one to the other helps communication along and allows for better teaching to occur.
American Kenpo has given me many examples (Practice Combat Scenarios or Default Self Defense Techniques) to which to apply the Wing Chun principles and biomechanical optimizations.
Also, Wing Chun training is more of a Strategic offensive Method, since
you go to action with certain awareness. Then you simply go through the attackers like a truck. No chance aggressiveness, or deflect then aggressiveness to control the situation.
American Kenpo, as I train it, teaches what we call Reactive Defensive Methods. This is because it assumes that we weren't looking for the fight and that we were caught by surprise or almost by surprise, so the thing is to ingrain appropriate reactions to survive the initial assault, and then
to either finish the thing or decide the amount of damage to do via specific destructive sequencing.
In the end, the execution in both is simple, the training methods are the ones that are more elaborate. Yet it depends on the specific teacher, in both cases.
And you get to the same thing, sophisticated simplicity.
To answer Mr. Spartan, the Wing Chun forms themselves are training tools that can be used to learn the use of the weapons, yet again, the most important thing is the specific trainers. Some can use it for actiual weaopns combat.
Yet on close inspections, many of the movements are not the best tactics to use, specifically against contemporary weapons found, like knives, clubs of different kinds ans such.
Many of the movements of the pole can be used with pool cues, yet it depends on specific training with that in mind.
For the Baat Cham Dao it is a different matter because of the geometry of the weapon; the handguards and such. A machete and knife have different weights and structures, which require different training.
Yet practicing the Wing Chun movements with weights has interesting results. In a way, a training that resembles many of the Wing Chun attributes with a weapon would be western fencing. I practice Escrima and I approach it many times like fencing. Of course, some things differ, yet the overall principles are very similar.
Hope that helps.
sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
First, to answer Mr. Geezer.
American Kenpo has an interesting teaching method.
People learn either by taking a principle that is general and learning how to apply it to specific situations. Wing Chun tend to be like this, thus you learn several principal rules and several drills that evolve with the understandings that are derived from the forms by a qualified instructor that can "extract" the knowledge from the teaching aids (forms). Tis is called "high chunk learning" or "global scope".
Other people learn better by specific examples. By learning many examples they can extrapolate the general principles that will guide them when they encounter new situations. From Basics, to complexity (apparent), to sophisticated simplicity (you stack a lot of stuff into movements which to the untrained eye are invisible... the essence of internal training!)...
This is called "small chunk learning" or "specific scope". The use of both methods yields best results overall, since the ability to go from one to the other helps communication along and allows for better teaching to occur.
American Kenpo has given me many examples (Practice Combat Scenarios or Default Self Defense Techniques) to which to apply the Wing Chun principles and biomechanical optimizations.
Also, Wing Chun training is more of a Strategic offensive Method, since
you go to action with certain awareness. Then you simply go through the attackers like a truck. No chance aggressiveness, or deflect then aggressiveness to control the situation.
American Kenpo, as I train it, teaches what we call Reactive Defensive Methods. This is because it assumes that we weren't looking for the fight and that we were caught by surprise or almost by surprise, so the thing is to ingrain appropriate reactions to survive the initial assault, and then
to either finish the thing or decide the amount of damage to do via specific destructive sequencing.
In the end, the execution in both is simple, the training methods are the ones that are more elaborate. Yet it depends on the specific teacher, in both cases.
And you get to the same thing, sophisticated simplicity.
To answer Mr. Spartan, the Wing Chun forms themselves are training tools that can be used to learn the use of the weapons, yet again, the most important thing is the specific trainers. Some can use it for actiual weaopns combat.
Yet on close inspections, many of the movements are not the best tactics to use, specifically against contemporary weapons found, like knives, clubs of different kinds ans such.
Many of the movements of the pole can be used with pool cues, yet it depends on specific training with that in mind.
For the Baat Cham Dao it is a different matter because of the geometry of the weapon; the handguards and such. A machete and knife have different weights and structures, which require different training.
Yet practicing the Wing Chun movements with weights has interesting results. In a way, a training that resembles many of the Wing Chun attributes with a weapon would be western fencing. I practice Escrima and I approach it many times like fencing. Of course, some things differ, yet the overall principles are very similar.
Hope that helps.
sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
