New to Wing Chun - Is This School Legit?

[geezer]

Thanks for the info.! Unfortunately I don't have the bucks to just grab a last minute, full-fare ticket from Phoenix. I'm hoping they schedule something closer in the future, like in Las Vegas again.

 

[wingchun100]

Many wing chun schools that I have visited do not engage in sparring; they are more heavy on the chi sao. The Sifu at my old school intended to introduce sparring once he had a good amount of people who were (in his opinion) "good enough" to warrant it.

 

[ShortBridge]

The whole "sparring" discussion is tough to get through. Undeniably "experience" is good. When people have skills, or think they have skills, making those skills work under less controlled circumstances will make them much better, no doubt. It is necessary to do so if you want to develop beyond a certain point. Whether sparring does that effectively is a different discussion and depends greatly on how you spar and who you're sparring with, so it's difficult to even have the discussion in general terms.

Keeping it simple, in a classic martial art "sparring day one", doesn't translate well, because you haven't learned the skills with which to apply under those less controlled circumstances. Much of what I need to do with a new student is help them stop doing things before I can get them to start doing the things that they come to me to learn to do. Telling them "go punch and kick that guy and try to give worse than you get" is not going to make that a bigger problem for them and me until they're pretty well established in our system (or whatever system they are learning).

The problem that I personally have with the notion of "sparring" is that what most people mean is "kickboxing". If you're learning Wing Chun, then kickboxing isn't a good exercise to integrate with your learning, because Wing Chun isn't kickboxing. If you don't know Wing Chun ....or Pak Mai or whatever... and you feel compelled to take up the argument that you know all you need to know about a system based on the y/n answer of "do you spar and when does that start?" then neither this thread nor any other will change your mind and we should both just decide to be okay with that. The world is a big beautiful place.

Now, to take a swipe at my Wing Chun brothers and sisters; Chi Sao is not sparring and not a substitute for it. It's an amazing drill and a really fun thing that we do. A lot of good things get developed and refined through Chi Sao and I love it. But, it's a drill. It is neither sparring nor fighting nor an indication of how you would do at either. If you answer a question about sparring or "would it work in a real fight?" with "chi sao", you're discrediting yourself and the rest of us in the process. It's as irrelivant as if my doctor asked me if I smoked cigarettes and I answered "I can bench 230#". It might be good information to him, but it's not an answer to his question and now he probably doesn't trust that I'm being straight with him.

 

[wingchun100]

Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.

This is standard operating procedure for just about any martial arts school. Some of them do have "drop in" rates (AKA, pay whenever you can show up), but I imagine that is a nightmare to track in terms of accounting and bookkeeping.

Also, not for nothing, but that usually comes to a higher per-class fee. What if you went 4 times per month and paid $80, but the monthly tuition to go whenever you were free was $100...only $20 more for the freedom to go any night you choose?

 

[Danny T]

Jon Rister is an instructor certified by Guro Inosanto. He has trained under Sifu Francis Fong and has hosted him from time to time for seminars at his school. He may have been awarded apprentice instructor under Sifu Fong several years ago but has not been in Fong's instructor list for the past several years. I know he has attended seminars with Ajarn Chai Sirisute but not aware of Chai certifying him as an instructor. I know nothing of his training with Sifu Hartsell.
He states he is a 'member' of:
Wing Chun USA with Fong. It was the WC Association USA which is Fong's old association that has been defunct for 5 years now. He is not listed as an instructor in the Francis Fong Instructor Affiliation. To become an Apprentice Instructor one has to test directly under Sifu Fong and maintain a least 20 hours of instruction by him per year. If not you are not listed as an instructor under him. One can become an apprentice instructor and not have completed the system but can only instruct and award beginner level material recognized by Sifu Fong.
Thai Boxing Association USA which has now become the World Thai Boxing Association which doesn't necessarily recognize those from the TBA. A person could be a TBA member simply by purchasing a $25.00 membership but that doesn't mean they were an instructor. A person could be certified as an Apprentice Instructor by having passed student level II under a certified TBA instructor and then passing an Apprentice test under an Ajarn in the TBA. To become an Associate Instructor you were to have 20 hours of training directly under Ajarn Chai a year for 3 years and attend the Thai Camp for testing.

This is an old post...it's been 2 years.

It has come to my attention today this posting by me 2 years ago was taken as negative and degrading toward Jon Rister and Rister International.

I'd like to say I know Jon and have known him for several years and it wasn't my intent to be negative or degrading by any means.
It was to post information accurate 'to me' about Guro Jon and his affiliation with Guro Dan I, Sifu Francis Fong, Ajarn Chai, Sifu Larry Hartsell when the OPoster asked about him and his organization.

I know he is listed under Guro Dan I.
He was an Apprentice Instructor in the Wing Chun Association USA (now defunct) under Sifu Francis Fong.
He was not listed as an Affiliate under the Francis Fong Instructor Affiliate program at the time I posted. And in order to listed as an instructor one has to have continued training at least 20 hours per year directly under Sifu Fong and be a member of the FFIA.
I know nothing about his training under Sifu Larry Hartsell. (so I can't say anything one way or another about such)
As to being a member to the TBA. The TBA is now the WTBA and doesn't necessarily recognize members or instructors from the TBA. One has to be a member of the WTBA and have 'continued' to train under Ajarn Chai to be listed.
Info on becoming a TBA Instructor one must test under a certified instructor and then test under an TBA Ajarn. Now one must test under a WTBA Ajarn and to become an Associate you have to have 20 hours of training directly under Ajarn Chai a year for at least 3 years and attend a Thai Camp where you will be tested.

Again nothing was intended to insult or degrade him and I apologize for it having been taken that way by some. Anyone who has been certified to any degree by Guro Dan Inosanto, Sifu Francis Fong, or Ajarn Chai is good to the degree they were certified.

 

[geezer]

This is an old post...it's been 2 years. It has come to my attention today this posting by me 2 years ago was taken as negative and degrading...

In the MA community, and especially the WC community, it's hard to say anything of substance without somebody getting offended. That's why a lot of people just don't post at all. Too bad. IMO Dan, you do about as well as anybody can. Please, keep it up!

 

[Punchy]

I'm sure everything's fine. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on is that the Wing Chun community is a reasonable and forgiving group.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In the MA community, and especially the WC community, it's hard to say anything of substance without somebody getting offended. That's why a lot of people just don't post at all. Too bad. IMO Dan, you do about as well as anybody can. Please, keep it up!

Well that offensive

I'm sure everything's fine. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on is that the Wing Chun community is a reasonable and forgiving group.

Taijiquan/XIngyiquan guys with a touch of Wing Chun aren't......We're offended by everything..and that was offensive and we never EVER forgive an offense

 

[skyeisonfire]

Wing Chun is definitely useful even if you don't spar, you can still learn some important elements from it that can be useful. I'm glad I took it. Definitely find a good teacher though. Even if you take Wing Chun, that doesn't mean you have to stop there. You can add other things in like kick boxing or other disciplines to compliment and work your majic.

 

[Martial D]

Wing Chun is definitely useful even if you don't spar, you can still learn some important elements from it that can be useful. I'm glad I took it. Definitely find a good teacher though. Even if you take Wing Chun, that doesn't mean you have to stop there. You can add other things in like kick boxing or other disciplines to compliment and work your majic.

Yup, that's my story. Trained WC hard for years (although we sparred quite a lot) before branching out into other things. You are not your art, you are your attributes and skills. Arts are tools to refine these skills and attributes.

Your 'style' is you.

With that said, there is still quite a lot of WC in what I do. WC has gotten a bad rap mostly because most of the schools and teachers train it like nancies.

 

[skyeisonfire]

Yup, that's my story. Trained WC hard for years (although we sparred quite a lot) before branching out into other things. You are not your art, you are your attributes and skills. Arts are tools to refine these skills and attributes.

Your 'style' is you.

With that said, there is still quite a lot of WC in what I do. WC has gotten a bad rap mostly because most of the schools and teachers train it like nancies.

I quite agree, especially fru-foo schools. My teacher beat me up for a good reason lol. Jk. Just bruises.

 

[Martial D]

Many wing chun schools that I have visited do not engage in sparring; they are more heavy on the chi sao. The Sifu at my old school intended to introduce sparring once he had a good amount of people who were (in his opinion) "good enough" to warrant it.

I find that to be a weird attitude. Sparring is what makes you good at sparring. I like to introduce it within the first month. For some, day 1.

 

[Danny T]

I find that to be a weird attitude. Sparring is what makes you good at sparring. I like to introduce it within the first month. For some, day 1.

Yeah we spar a lot and vs boxers, nak muays, savateurs, mma fighters and more.
It's not one being better but getting experience vs a lot of different type of practitioners.
I think after the acquisition of a new idea, concept or technique and the time you get to spar it out under controlled live conditions is of high importance.
I like to keep this gap rather short in that you learn a new technique, drill it slowly and easily, add a bit of resistance, increase the speed a bit as a part of the drilling. Add in a couple of follow ups, then add in a couple of contingencies, counters to them and follow ups to each.Then spar it at the level the individual is capable.

Like the BJJ model: learn a new technique and by the end of the training session you are required to roll with it.