New to Wing Chun - Is This School Legit?

[DanT]

Ok; we can agree to disagree. If you are referring to the accounts I'm thinking of, we must just view the definition of 'sparring' differently - no worries. I would describe those as tests performed within far stricter confines than sparring. And knowing how those things go in traditional CMA culture, it would be surprising were any of the students actually looking to punk the master. The reality is, contrary to your assertion earlier - sparring was always the exception rather than the rule in traditional CMA gwoon. With the advent of the internet and the shrinking of the global marketplace, the obvious value of sparring, and the skill it produces has become undeniable and more traditional artists are sparring these days, which I think is great.

Actually, the sparring that I'm referring to is full contact. Again, I dont mean to discount your personal experience, but I've been to many many traditional kwoons, and all of my sifu's and sigungs have always mentioned sparring as being an essential element to their training. The reality is that they and I train "kuoshu", not gymnastic "wushu" that's being trained mostly today. Sparring has always been an essential part of kung fu training, and clubs who don't spar don't teach kung fu properly.

 

[BrendanF]

As I said, these days it is a far more common practice.

The evidence that it was the exception rather than the rule traditionally is overwhelming. The infamous 1928 contest, the 1952 Chan v Wu debacle.. the list goes on.

 

[DanT]

As I said, these days it is a far more common practice.

The evidence that it was the exception rather than the rule traditionally is overwhelming. The infamous 1928 contest, the 1952 Chan v Wu debacle.. the list goes on.

I think the issue with those events was lack of experience sparring other styles, rather than the issue being not sparring all together. Sparring in the class setting has always been an important part of traditional training.

 

[BrendanF]

No worries - doesn't seem like we'll convince each other. I'd like to think that sparring was a common component of traditional training, it just doesn't match with all I've learned of the history (particularly of the CMA)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Rather than quote everyone who has responded to me thus far let me just thank everyone as a whole for providing feedback/opinions/thoughts on things I've asked or brought up. I just returned from my first night of Wing Chun ever and I'll hold out on writing some sort of review/critique on Jon Rister's school for now as I will be checking out 1 other school tomorrow (Wednesday) night.

Once I've seen both I'll have a better ability to compare/contrast between the two. I will say that I am VERY excited to dig deep into this art and start learning the forms along with all the principles behind them.

If anyone is curious, the other school I'll be checking out is Sifu Steve Cottrell's and I've provided a link below... their website isn't flashy by any means but I spoke to the man for about a half hour earlier this afternoon and he was very eager to share his knowledge along with answering all my questions about his classes and his background.

Main Page - Authentic Kung-Fu

OP - let us know how things went with your visits to the two schools.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Sparring is only a piece of the overall picture, since it doesn't teach you to fight; it only gives a platform to test skills developed outside of sparring. But it is important for any serious martial art whose aim or purpose includes self-defense I would think. If you believe your pak sau can open the line of attack against a strong jab, or your bong sau to deflect a strong mid level punch.... then you have to actually train with some pressure to definitively know that, am I right?

Sparring without a plan or thought given to what you are looking to test can lead to bad habits like dancing around the floor like sloppy boxers sizing each other up. A real fight would never be like that. But a sifu who says "we don't spar at all" and gives the excuse that the art is too deadly to spar makes my BS meter go off. He could be teaching legit WC principles, but if you don't pressure test it.... then you can't say you are training for self-defense / self-preservation.

 

[ailCeejae]

OP - let us know how things went with your visits to the two schools.

Sure thing!

I'm actually facing a tough decision now to be honest.. and its not regarding which school to attend.

I don't want it to seem like I'm talking bad about any specific school but obviously I would like one more than the other.

The first one - Jon Rister's School:

I was able to participate in this class free of charge. It turns out that they do not have separate classes for different levels of competency (i.e. beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc) so everyone was lumped into this class.

The class began with every student facing the mirror and the instructor in front. He went through the entire SLT form (at once, from start to finish) and everyone was to copy. This being my first time I did my best to follow but definitely got lost a few times.

After doing this we were split into pairs to do a drill where someone punches at your face and you stop the punch by making contact with them first and then grabbing their arm and moving it over your shoulder as you turn around, giving you leverage for an arm break.

We did a couple drills similar to this, each time I would end up with a different partner. Eventually he came around to each group and gave us a plastic knife to practice a drill where we parry an oncoming knife attack and either get them to drop the knife or we take it from them after disabling them.

Afterwards he stayed and talked with me for a bit and I will say that he was a nice guy, he also offered for me to return to participate in another class free of charge.

I would also like to say that this was not the sort of structure I had anticipated for a Wing Chun class after all the reading that I had done. I thought I'd at least start with correcting my form/posture and the beginnings of SLT (in parts) rather than going through the whole thing at once without any form or stance correction and then jumping into knife fight scenarios. I also found it a bit odd that all of the more senior students where doing the exact same things as me, someone who was on their very first day.


The Second Class: Sifu Steve Cottrell @ Authentic Kung Fu

Honestly I'm not even sure where to start. I was practically in awe from the moment I got there.

When I showed up there were already about 15 students who were there half an hour early. One of the senior students who has been practicing with the Sifu for decades greeted me and asked me a couple of questions before the Sifu entered the room and came straight toward me.

I introduced myself as someone who spoke to him a day prior on the phone. He began explaining to me the structure of his classes and what I would be seeing for the next two hours. (He recommended I watch both the beginner and intermediate classes rather than participate).

He explained that their classes start with the first hour being the beginner class, the second hour being the intermediate, and the third being the advanced class. The second and third hour students all show up to the first hour to assist with the class and ensure that everyone is getting individual instruction. The third hour students do the same for the second hour. But he explained that the doors are locked for the third hour as it is a time for him to individually touch hands with all of the students just as his Sifu's did for him.. noting that his senior students are capable of leading the earlier classes but that once they get to an advanced level it comes time for him to be much more involved for them to continue to grow.

He studied directly from Leung Ting and Koo Sang (he has pictures as well). He explained that his goal in studying from both of them was to learn how Ip Man thought/taught towards the later stages of his life and also in his earlier years.

Anyhow, back to the class. The class began with him in front facing the class and going through about a 10 minute period of a wide variety of stretching. After that the class was broken up into groups that was further divided into pairs. His senior students led these groups while he invited me to get up and walk around with him as he explained what was taking place in each group/pair.

He explained how one section was for people who were in their first month or two and what they were working on. He told me that I would be there when I start out and would need to perfect what it is that they were doing before I could move on to the next group.

After a while they would move on to something else but the structure was the same. The Sifu was with me most of the class and would answer all my questions and then break from me to go to individuals who requested him or whenever he saw something that he felt he needed to provide instruction on.

I saw the same structure in the second (intermediate class) but this was where I started to see some more advanced techniques, Chi Sao, kicking with the back leg while pursuing someone so that the kick also serves as your movement forward, etc.

I asked him about when I learn the first form (SLT) and he explained that it is learned in pieces, I never once saw them go through the whole form itself, rather what they were doing was applying the different parts of the form in their drill it seemed. I'm assuming at some point in time he shows everyone the forms in their entirety.

I could go on and on about the different tidbits of info he gave me about Wing Chun itself, Wing Chun compared to other arts, his vast experiences studying Wing Chun and other arts (he teaches Mantis as well), his travels to China and this society of older Chinese martial artists who accepted him as the only foreigner into their group after decades of training, etc, etc. It was truly a great experience. He even told me at one point towards the end that he was evaluating me as much as I was evaluating him and his class. I'll stop here with my description of the class because I've probably written more than most are willing to read anyhow.

I think its safe to say which class/Sifu I'd prefer to learn under. The problem is... the drive is 25 miles in rush hour traffic to go from where I live which is near Dallas, to downtown Fort Worth where he teaches. I'm not from here, the roads are confusing as hell even with a gps... if you're in the wrong lane you may easily miss an exit and add 10-15 minutes to your drive. Even if you get the right exit you find that it splits into several off ramps and you have 2 seconds flat to decide which one to take or you added more time to your travel again.

I'm cool with all of this though, I'd leave 2 hours early (it took me 50 min to arrive last night) if I had to. The main problem is that my car is a lease... 4 years 12K miles/year. 50 miles (there and back combined) 4 times/week adds up to over 10K/year alone. Luckily I live only 4 miles from work so I don't have to drive far for that but still, I'd definitely go over. This worries me. I'm thinking about joining and only going 3 days/week and just practicing a hell of a lot more on my own at home to make up for it?

 

[CB Jones]

Feel your pain. Dallas/Fort Worth area is one of if not my least favorite places to drive in.

But....some of the rockiest paths lead to the most beautiful gardens.

Maybe someone else in the school also is making the same drive and you could car pool.



Or pull the fuse that powers your dashboard and odometer. Lol. (Just kidding)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sure thing!

I'm actually facing a tough decision now to be honest.. and its not regarding which school to attend.

I don't want it to seem like I'm talking bad about any specific school but obviously I would like one more than the other.

The first one - Jon Rister's School:

I was able to participate in this class free of charge. It turns out that they do not have separate classes for different levels of competency (i.e. beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc) so everyone was lumped into this class.

The class began with every student facing the mirror and the instructor in front. He went through the entire SLT form (at once, from start to finish) and everyone was to copy. This being my first time I did my best to follow but definitely got lost a few times.

After doing this we were split into pairs to do a drill where someone punches at your face and you stop the punch by making contact with them first and then grabbing their arm and moving it over your shoulder as you turn around, giving you leverage for an arm break.

We did a couple drills similar to this, each time I would end up with a different partner. Eventually he came around to each group and gave us a plastic knife to practice a drill where we parry an oncoming knife attack and either get them to drop the knife or we take it from them after disabling them.

Afterwards he stayed and talked with me for a bit and I will say that he was a nice guy, he also offered for me to return to participate in another class free of charge.

I would also like to say that this was not the sort of structure I had anticipated for a Wing Chun class after all the reading that I had done. I thought I'd at least start with correcting my form/posture and the beginnings of SLT (in parts) rather than going through the whole thing at once without any form or stance correction and then jumping into knife fight scenarios. I also found it a bit odd that all of the more senior students where doing the exact same things as me, someone who was on their very first day.


The Second Class: Sifu Steve Cottrell @ Authentic Kung Fu

Honestly I'm not even sure where to start. I was practically in awe from the moment I got there.

When I showed up there were already about 15 students who were there half an hour early. One of the senior students who has been practicing with the Sifu for decades greeted me and asked me a couple of questions before the Sifu entered the room and came straight toward me.

I introduced myself as someone who spoke to him a day prior on the phone. He began explaining to me the structure of his classes and what I would be seeing for the next two hours. (He recommended I watch both the beginner and intermediate classes rather than participate).

He explained that their classes start with the first hour being the beginner class, the second hour being the intermediate, and the third being the advanced class. The second and third hour students all show up to the first hour to assist with the class and ensure that everyone is getting individual instruction. The third hour students do the same for the second hour. But he explained that the doors are locked for the third hour as it is a time for him to individually touch hands with all of the students just as his Sifu's did for him.. noting that his senior students are capable of leading the earlier classes but that once they get to an advanced level it comes time for him to be much more involved for them to continue to grow.

He studied directly from Leung Ting and Koo Sang (he has pictures as well). He explained that his goal in studying from both of them was to learn how Ip Man thought/taught towards the later stages of his life and also in his earlier years.

Anyhow, back to the class. The class began with him in front facing the class and going through about a 10 minute period of a wide variety of stretching. After that the class was broken up into groups that was further divided into pairs. His senior students led these groups while he invited me to get up and walk around with him as he explained what was taking place in each group/pair.

He explained how one section was for people who were in their first month or two and what they were working on. He told me that I would be there when I start out and would need to perfect what it is that they were doing before I could move on to the next group.

After a while they would move on to something else but the structure was the same. The Sifu was with me most of the class and would answer all my questions and then break from me to go to individuals who requested him or whenever he saw something that he felt he needed to provide instruction on.

I saw the same structure in the second (intermediate class) but this was where I started to see some more advanced techniques, Chi Sao, kicking with the back leg while pursuing someone so that the kick also serves as your movement forward, etc.

I asked him about when I learn the first form (SLT) and he explained that it is learned in pieces, I never once saw them go through the whole form itself, rather what they were doing was applying the different parts of the form in their drill it seemed. I'm assuming at some point in time he shows everyone the forms in their entirety.

I could go on and on about the different tidbits of info he gave me about Wing Chun itself, Wing Chun compared to other arts, his vast experiences studying Wing Chun and other arts (he teaches Mantis as well), his travels to China and this society of older Chinese martial artists who accepted him as the only foreigner into their group after decades of training, etc, etc. It was truly a great experience. He even told me at one point towards the end that he was evaluating me as much as I was evaluating him and his class. I'll stop here with my description of the class because I've probably written more than most are willing to read anyhow.

I think its safe to say which class/Sifu I'd prefer to learn under. The problem is... the drive is 25 miles in rush hour traffic to go from where I live which is near Dallas, to downtown Fort Worth where he teaches. I'm not from here, the roads are confusing as hell even with a gps... if you're in the wrong lane you may easily miss an exit and add 10-15 minutes to your drive. Even if you get the right exit you find that it splits into several off ramps and you have 2 seconds flat to decide which one to take or you added more time to your travel again.

I'm cool with all of this though, I'd leave 2 hours early (it took me 50 min to arrive last night) if I had to. The main problem is that my car is a lease... 4 years 12K miles/year. 50 miles (there and back combined) 4 times/week adds up to over 10K/year alone. Luckily I live only 4 miles from work so I don't have to drive far for that but still, I'd definitely go over. This worries me. I'm thinking about joining and only going 3 days/week and just practicing a hell of a lot more on my own at home to make up for it?

3 days a week is plenty for a beginner-you don't want to burn yourself out by going too often, especially with waiting 2 hours (combined) in traffic each time. You may be up for it now, since it's new and your excited, but it's not something that you'll want to do, or be able to do, 4 times a week 6 months down the line. Going 2-3 times a week should be more than enough.

This is assuming that you're not planning on being a professional fighter, which I'm guessing is not your goal. Remember, you have decades to learn martial arts, which makes it a marathon rather than a sprint.

 

[ailCeejae]

3 days a week is plenty for a beginner-you don't want to burn yourself out by going too often, especially with waiting 2 hours (combined) in traffic each time. You may be up for it now, since it's new and your excited, but it's not something that you'll want to do, or be able to do, 4 times a week 6 months down the line. Going 2-3 times a week should be more than enough.

This is assuming that you're not planning on being a professional fighter, which I'm guessing is not your goal. Remember, you have decades to learn martial arts, which makes it a marathon rather than a sprint.

Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.

Having had times where I've gone either 6 times a week or 1 time a week for the same rate, I view it as I'm paying for the option to attend whenever I can, rather than for each individual class. It helps me come to terms with it.

 

[geezer]

I have a student --a great older guy, who runs his own small contracting business. He always pays the same rate. Sometimes he shows up twice a month ...when work is heavy. Other times he's there every night and Saturdays too ...when work slows down.

Hey, we all do what we gotta in this world.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you truly believe that one school offers better training, then the aggravations of travel are worth tolerating. I've had times where I have traveled an hour and a half in each direction, to get the training that mattered to me.

Financially, you need to decide if it is doable. If you won't make the rent payment because of it, well it isn't worth being homeless. But maybe you can figure out a way to make it work.

 

[Danny T]

I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.

Huh?
I guess I should be stressed out about the money I waste on my gym membership that allows me to weight train everyday but I only go 3 times a week.

 

[Callen]

I have my very first class in Wing Chun (or any martial art period) this evening and I'm pretty excited.

Congratulations and welcome to the forum. The journey of Wing Chun is full of self-discovery and reward.

If you are searching for Wing Chun near Irving, you're certainly limited. Most of your options are about 25 miles away. If you want to train in the system you'll have to travel a bit.

 

[Paul_D]

everything I've read in my research before going into this suggests that if you ever want to be good at self defense in a real life scenario, you'd be far better off if your training involved sparring.

What have you been reading?

 

[ailCeejae]

Congratulations and welcome to the forum. The journey of Wing Chun is full of self-discovery and reward.

If you are searching for Wing Chun near Irving, you're certainly limited. Most of your options are about 25 miles away. If you want to train in the system you'll have to travel a bit.

Thank you! Also, I'd like to just let everyone know who was interested that I ended up signing up for the school that's 25 miles away and had my first official class earlier this evening. I'm very excited to dig into Wing Chun

 

[RobBnTX]

ailCeejae, I realize that you have already signed up at the school in Ft. Worth but I wanted to bring to your attention a school in Plano, Plano Wing Chun and Escrima for Self-Defense under Sifu Graham Weedon. Sifu Weedon is a very innovative instructor and is certified in the EBMAS organization. They teach Wing Tzun and Escrima. Although that is somewhat of a distance, not exactly around the corner, but barring traffic tie ups such as wrecks and construction that is an easy drive from Irving to Plano if you take the George Bush Turnpike.

 

[geezer]

I noticed that Sifu Emin and GM Rene Latosa are scheduled to give a joint EBMAS Wing Tzun/Latosa Escrima Concepts seminar in Dallas in mid-July. I would really want to attend except that I have a conflict on those dates. Anybody who has not worked with Emin and Rene should have that experience IMO.

 

[RobBnTX]

geezeer, The Plano school is also hosting Emin Boztepe this coming weekend 04/21-04/22, here is the informtion:
He will be at West Plano CrossFit for a hands-on seminar that is open to the public. Sessions will be Friday 7-10pm and Saturday 12-3pm. You can go to their website to get phone and email information if anyone may be interested. Of course the big one is in July.
Plano Wing Chun and Escrima for Self-Defense