Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Dude, dont you know that relativism only applies to issues of morality and ethics?? :uhyeah:
New Study Shows We Really Are Worse Off Then Our Parents
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Dude, dont you know that relativism only applies to issues of morality and ethics?? :uhyeah:
CoryKS
Senior Master
I think mostly it's a political viewpoint that has adopted all the trappings of a religion. You got your original sin - colonialism, slavery. You got your basic wickedness - racism, greed, religious oppression, abuse of environment. And you got your hope of salvation - Repent, mah brotha! And join-ah! The hive mind-ah! of Leftism! Hallelujah!
tellner
Senior Master
Because life is definitely worth living. And because despite the best efforts of evil people change for the better is still possible. The question is what you do with the facts. You, it seems, are saying "They make me feel bad, so I'll listen to the comforting lies and feel good." Some people sink into depression. Others choose to take it as a call to action. Most just get on the best they can.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
You have no clue regarding anything I have seen or done in my life. Or how I choose to live it.
Interesting how anybody who doesnt drink the lefts kool-aid has their "head buried in the sand". Must be nice to have the corner on "truth".
Interesting how anybody who doesnt drink the lefts kool-aid has their "head buried in the sand". Must be nice to have the corner on "truth".
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I can openly admit that one i am worse off than my parents i have no job an am using a computer at a library. don't have a cell phone or cable TV, don't have TV, don't have any DVDs..... Used to study martial arts under an instructor some time back have been at it sense i was young, most of the people i trained under would let me train free to when i meet an trained with them when i was around 20 to 30 range.
Seriously, who is Sean Paul?
I am not a liberal either so, i say those who have made it should have the right to kill the poor of there country for real even in America! I am in agreement that we are not bad off in this country for real but in relation how much is made by some people that have jobs that do relate to jobs to day they are being paid less cause production is no longer a big standardized thing in America we are a service nation now mainly service oriented work is out there. Bluntly if you do not possess a skill in B.S. sales or anything like it you get to live on the street like i do.
An yes i agree we are not so bad off in comparison to other places in the World. Here when we compare are ability now to what we had when my father got his job an life going it is harder to do now than way back when. That i believe is why you have people still living at home in there 30 an 40 in America. The thing that sucks for me is i can not give back what my parent have done in life for me which does just bother me. i personally can say i again, i just don't get what it is that is needed to make it in life relating to getting an keep the type of job that is were i have skills at. I have an associate in Applied Science of Electronics an tried to find jobs they don't exist or i don't know what is need something.
I don't blame anyone but myself in this area it is something i have not yet figured out. As you say bad choices, after all what is a good choice.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Though it's not true for me (or for several other people who've posted), that's not the first study to say that median incomes are down. It may be a system problem, but suspect choices are another factor.
For many of our parents, it went like this. Finish high school. Go to college. Get a job. Work that career. By 35 you're looking at 10 years in the same career, often with the same company.
Fot lots of us, it went like this. Finish high school. Go to college. Drop out for a year or so and move back in with the parents. Go back to college. Spend a couple years finding ourselves in the Peace Corps, or in Europe. Get a job. Decide we don't like that job. Go back to college. Get a new job. By 35 we're just beginning our careers.
Debt-to-income ratios are very high and responsible for much of the feeling of want amongst us middle class workin' folk these days, but that's a matter of choice and good decisions. In our parents' day, consumer debt wasn't as freely available -- a $500 credit limit was very high. Today, it's not hard to have access to 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars of high interest consumer credit. It's easier to fall into that trap now, but still a matter of decision.
Honesty (and you can say I'm taking the rosy view here) I find the luxury of starting our careers later an indication that we're actually better off. My wife and I live on one (teacher) salary, and throw the rest of the money into savings. It can be done. It's just a matter of discipline and smart financial choices.
For many of our parents, it went like this. Finish high school. Go to college. Get a job. Work that career. By 35 you're looking at 10 years in the same career, often with the same company.
Fot lots of us, it went like this. Finish high school. Go to college. Drop out for a year or so and move back in with the parents. Go back to college. Spend a couple years finding ourselves in the Peace Corps, or in Europe. Get a job. Decide we don't like that job. Go back to college. Get a new job. By 35 we're just beginning our careers.
Debt-to-income ratios are very high and responsible for much of the feeling of want amongst us middle class workin' folk these days, but that's a matter of choice and good decisions. In our parents' day, consumer debt wasn't as freely available -- a $500 credit limit was very high. Today, it's not hard to have access to 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars of high interest consumer credit. It's easier to fall into that trap now, but still a matter of decision.
Honesty (and you can say I'm taking the rosy view here) I find the luxury of starting our careers later an indication that we're actually better off. My wife and I live on one (teacher) salary, and throw the rest of the money into savings. It can be done. It's just a matter of discipline and smart financial choices.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Thats a great point. Many young people are , for lack of a better term, coddled these days. My parents were expected (if not pushed) to get a job, move out and move on with their lives. These days, young adults get allowed to live as "kids" late into their 20's. In my parents generation, it was common to get married in the early 20's, these days people ask "whats your hurry" when you get hitched at 30. I will never let my kids fall into the trap I did though. Getting a credit card in college.
Yea i can sort of agree except i am one that became a veteran instead of straight of to college an a lot of what i did is not stay at jobs. They were not in the field i wanted an still to this day i am just not finding what is related to my college degree. i also never have depended on my parents like that just not what i would do i would rather have my right to what i did and not have them saying you should, you know the argument thing. Maybe if i had a different thinking you know take it easy type! An yes, they still say thing like that even with me not living at home, you should have, why do you have to.
Hey, there is one positive i get to be buried at Arlington regardless, there is a good thing. I am not sure i think, thay put any body who was a veteran there maybe it has changed.
Hey, there is one positive i get to be buried at Arlington regardless, there is a good thing. I am not sure i think, thay put any body who was a veteran there maybe it has changed.
You raise an excellent perspective there, Bushido, one that I'd not considered myself at all (which given that I've been wearing my old Economist hat for the past couple of days is a tad embarassing 
).
I can see that such a pushing of the career curve back a decade could make a difference to a number of people, perhaps enough to skew the data.
I do think that in at least some of the cases, it is going to be the situation that people have not seen through the smoke and mirrors of the financial institutions and have taken on a debt burden they should have avoided.
I still stand by my original post about my own position tho'. I have avoided debt all my life, have been overdraw (by Ā£100) once when I bought my first car in my late 'teens, have what is considered to be a 'good' job and am still struggling to exist even with my missus's income as well.
Primarily, that is because the cost of property is astronomical in this country and servicing that mortgage makes me thankful that we don't have kids to support too
.
So, in my case, I am quite markedly worse off than my father was at my age and I like to think that I have not made any rash or foolish decisions along the way. Then again, I do live in what is widely touted as "Rip-off, Britain" where we work longer, for less, and get taxed more than many of our contempories
.
To try and answer the disbelief of some posters here is difficult because we all tend to draw on our own experiences and immediate surroundings when making judgements. In some instances, there is also an automatic 'gainsaying' reflex to information that does not match a persons world view.
Sadly, I do believe, as I think I've said here before, that vehemently arguing a subject over the Net is an excercise in futility because mere glowing phosphors {or LCD pixels :lol:} are not going to change a persons ingrained attitudes.
I would like to invite informed comment from any other economics or business gradutes we have here at MT tho'. I'm sure Tellner and I can't be the only ones and it'd be interesting to see what you think (especially if you trained in a different era to us (late '70's, early '80's for me) when economic thought was in transition).
).I can see that such a pushing of the career curve back a decade could make a difference to a number of people, perhaps enough to skew the data.
I do think that in at least some of the cases, it is going to be the situation that people have not seen through the smoke and mirrors of the financial institutions and have taken on a debt burden they should have avoided.
I still stand by my original post about my own position tho'. I have avoided debt all my life, have been overdraw (by Ā£100) once when I bought my first car in my late 'teens, have what is considered to be a 'good' job and am still struggling to exist even with my missus's income as well.
Primarily, that is because the cost of property is astronomical in this country and servicing that mortgage makes me thankful that we don't have kids to support too
.So, in my case, I am quite markedly worse off than my father was at my age and I like to think that I have not made any rash or foolish decisions along the way. Then again, I do live in what is widely touted as "Rip-off, Britain" where we work longer, for less, and get taxed more than many of our contempories
.To try and answer the disbelief of some posters here is difficult because we all tend to draw on our own experiences and immediate surroundings when making judgements. In some instances, there is also an automatic 'gainsaying' reflex to information that does not match a persons world view.
Sadly, I do believe, as I think I've said here before, that vehemently arguing a subject over the Net is an excercise in futility because mere glowing phosphors {or LCD pixels :lol:} are not going to change a persons ingrained attitudes.
I would like to invite informed comment from any other economics or business gradutes we have here at MT tho'. I'm sure Tellner and I can't be the only ones and it'd be interesting to see what you think (especially if you trained in a different era to us (late '70's, early '80's for me) when economic thought was in transition).
We means per capita and as a whole. I'm glad you are kickin' ***.
Sean
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
I agree completely.
In Orwell's 1984, he talks about the importance of a wartime economy. Only during war, he says, can you get the population to produce at a massive level while never amassing enough personal wealth to retire or to challenge the power elite. In the world of that novel, three superpowers were engaged in a sustained war in order to create that situation.
Orwell would have been awed by the elegance of the consumer debt system. Who would have imagined how quickly we'd put off retirement by 10 or 15 years just to buy that TV today instead of next year? Rising debt to income ratios produce the exact same effect as Orwell's idea, without even having to have an enemy. Want, it would seem, is an even stronger motivator than hate.
-I'm going to say that in some ways, we are better off than our parent's generation but perhaps worse in others. This cannot be a black and white response, there are too many variables! Younger generations have better access to things that were not available before, technology, for example. Sure older generations have access now though how many make use of it. My grandfather didn't have much use for a computer. However, a few years later after he died, my grandmother began using e-mail. This might all depend on the person, environment, circumstances, attitudes, etc.
-I'm 27 years old, have about $14,000 in debt between college and a car. 4 year college degree and an '01 Saturn, nothing fancy mind you. There are things I must pay for, like food, gas, car insurance, loan payments, rent. There are other things I do not need to purchase, as in extra material possessions. Some gadgets are nice to have but I don't need them. And that is perhaps one of the things I agree with Bushido on: the "want" in society. I don't want to have all those things out there, dont' need them. Therefore, I save money, unlike many others my age, and put it into an IRA.
-My nagging question is why don't people save money? (Obviously if you're poverty level or have the right circumstances where you cannot save, I understand. But many people could save and choose not to.)
A--->
-I'm 27 years old, have about $14,000 in debt between college and a car. 4 year college degree and an '01 Saturn, nothing fancy mind you. There are things I must pay for, like food, gas, car insurance, loan payments, rent. There are other things I do not need to purchase, as in extra material possessions. Some gadgets are nice to have but I don't need them. And that is perhaps one of the things I agree with Bushido on: the "want" in society. I don't want to have all those things out there, dont' need them. Therefore, I save money, unlike many others my age, and put it into an IRA.
-My nagging question is why don't people save money? (Obviously if you're poverty level or have the right circumstances where you cannot save, I understand. But many people could save and choose not to.)
A--->
OP
OP
I am actually better off then my parents, but there are some circumstances that pulled my parents family out of the norm. Thus, I grew up in a family that lived below the poverty level for a good part of my childhood.
With that being said, I can tell you for a fact that for people who find themselves in situations like mine, there is no mercy, there are no handouts, and there is absolutely no help from anyone but yourself when it comes to climbing back up the ladder of economic mobility.
And this study shows that this is only getting harder.
Further, I think we need to go back even further then 30 years to really get a sense of how much we have lost in terms of our standard of living. I'm 30 years old. I went to college for 10 years. I have three bachelor degrees in science and one Masters in Education. With the amount of money that I make I'm able to "finance" a three bedroom house, two modestly priced cars, and a few odds and ends. Note the key word here, finance. Also, we don't have all of the fancy gadgets that you can get and we don't want them. The basics are fine.
When my grandfather was thirty years old. He didn't have a high school diploma. He worked for the railroad. He bought a plot of land, built a house, bought two new cars, a boat and all of the odds and ends his family needed outright, in cash. Back in that time, this was a commonplace practice. Everyone did it that way.
Now days, living like this is nigh impossible. Why? The destruction of the buying power of the US dollar. Inflation, fractional reserve banking, outright usury have transferred the bulk of the wealth from the people to the elite.
For more information, see this. There are also some good solutions there...
With that being said, I can tell you for a fact that for people who find themselves in situations like mine, there is no mercy, there are no handouts, and there is absolutely no help from anyone but yourself when it comes to climbing back up the ladder of economic mobility.
And this study shows that this is only getting harder.
Further, I think we need to go back even further then 30 years to really get a sense of how much we have lost in terms of our standard of living. I'm 30 years old. I went to college for 10 years. I have three bachelor degrees in science and one Masters in Education. With the amount of money that I make I'm able to "finance" a three bedroom house, two modestly priced cars, and a few odds and ends. Note the key word here, finance. Also, we don't have all of the fancy gadgets that you can get and we don't want them. The basics are fine.
When my grandfather was thirty years old. He didn't have a high school diploma. He worked for the railroad. He bought a plot of land, built a house, bought two new cars, a boat and all of the odds and ends his family needed outright, in cash. Back in that time, this was a commonplace practice. Everyone did it that way.
Now days, living like this is nigh impossible. Why? The destruction of the buying power of the US dollar. Inflation, fractional reserve banking, outright usury have transferred the bulk of the wealth from the people to the elite.
For more information, see this. There are also some good solutions there...
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Ya know Upnorth, for once I agree with you. That is the biggest difference between about 2 generations ago and today. We live at a higher standard now but we dont OWN that standard. Things have been designed so that you wind up constantly paying for things. However, while Im no economist, perhaps thats the "natural" progression of things as more people want to buy more stuff or are placed in a situation to NEED more stuff to keep pace with society. My grandparents also lived in a different time with different necessities. While we may not "need" all the stuff we have, who wants to be the first to give up their car, their cell phone, their computer? Its always the OTHER GUY who has more than he needs or uses more than his share. ME on the other hand...
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
But Im also invested in a retirement plan and a 401K so while those corporate barrons have us over the barrel, Im making $$ on it too. 
OP
OP
Your whole post is a great post and I'm sure you are not surprised that I'm quoting this particular line. I just want you all to think about this. If you look at the history of our monetary system, you start to find a subtle and very powerful force that has shaped the policy of this country since 1913 (and before).
And you can research about this all you want with the vid I posted on this thread.
I'm just a normal guy. I want the best for my kids and I want them to be able to inherit the same standard of living that I have worked so hard for. The problem that I see is that the system that we are using puts us further and further behind at every opportunity.
We have evidence of this with this study and with numerous other studies, so what do we do?
The answer lies in a radical restructuring of how we do banking and how we make money. These two seemingly innocuous things are probably the most important issue in America today. If our monetary system fails, then really nothing else matters. One's ideology doesn't mean squat.
So, what do we do about this "subtle and pervasive power" as Woodrow Wilson puts it?
OP
OP
But Im also invested in a retirement plan and a 401K so while those corporate barrons have us over the barrel, Im making $$ on it too.
Back in my grandfather's day, you'd never be expected to invest into a retirement account. The company and social security was more then enough. One of the reasons that social security is not enough now days is because of the erosion of our dollar. The amount that was paid back then is not what is needed now.
So the system goes bankrupt.
This begs the question, is social security broken or is our monetary system broken?
Or course, "broken" implies some sort of accident. I would never want someone to think that anything about our current system is anything but deliberate.
Do a search on Jekyll Island and you'll see the origin of what I'm talking about.
Catalyst
Blue Belt
Just some random thoughts:
1.) If this place is so bad, why are people from Haiti risking their lives in leaky boats to get here? Why are people walking across deserts in the Southwest to get here from Mexico.
2.) My Father was born before the great depression and lived through it and fought in World War II. My parents were savers not spenders. They knew what hard times really were. My Dad couldn't have cared less if he had any gadgets - he was just happy to be alive after fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Peace, Freedom and enough to eat were luxuries when he was growing up.
3.) As someone said earlier, the definition of a necessity vs. a luxury item has changed. My parents never had more than one car and there were 6 of us in the family and we somehow managed to survive. It comes down to personal choice - do you want to save or do you spend?
4.) I think the rise of consumerism after WW II has contributed to the situation. When I was growing up, the only sneakers were Keds or PF Flyers. Now-a-Days if you don't give your kids $200 Nike Air Jordan Sneakers you're "damaging" them. I'll be damned if I'm gonna spend more on kid's sneakers than on the shoes that I wear to work.
1.) If this place is so bad, why are people from Haiti risking their lives in leaky boats to get here? Why are people walking across deserts in the Southwest to get here from Mexico.
2.) My Father was born before the great depression and lived through it and fought in World War II. My parents were savers not spenders. They knew what hard times really were. My Dad couldn't have cared less if he had any gadgets - he was just happy to be alive after fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Peace, Freedom and enough to eat were luxuries when he was growing up.
3.) As someone said earlier, the definition of a necessity vs. a luxury item has changed. My parents never had more than one car and there were 6 of us in the family and we somehow managed to survive. It comes down to personal choice - do you want to save or do you spend?
4.) I think the rise of consumerism after WW II has contributed to the situation. When I was growing up, the only sneakers were Keds or PF Flyers. Now-a-Days if you don't give your kids $200 Nike Air Jordan Sneakers you're "damaging" them. I'll be damned if I'm gonna spend more on kid's sneakers than on the shoes that I wear to work.
tellner
Senior Master
1) Puh-leaze. The fact that things are truly hellish in Haiti in no way alters the fact that they are bad and getting worse here. And as for Mexico, it is enjoying precisely the sort of economic regimen which the current Administration and monied elites want for us. Stagnant job creation, a shrinking middle class, falling wages, government mostly as a tool for funnelling money from the many to the few. They are further along than us and are exporting their unemployment North of the border
3) Health care is a necessity, not a luxury despite what the government and the CEO of WalMart say. Housing, gasoline, health care and food are taking up a historically large and growing share of our income. The only way we finance that is through debt. Consider that something over half of all bankruptcies are the direct result of a catastrophic medical event. The standard Right Wing lie of "It's all because the Lower Orders don't have any morals or self-restraint" doesn't wash.
4) Consumerism has been the national religion, enforced by unremitting propaganda, government policy, economic priesthood and corporate screed. It is certainly destructive. But do you know what? It wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if we hadn't had decades of economic complacency followed by almost thirty years of the systematic destruction of family-wage jobs.
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