New Student: when will you quit?

[Diagen]

I'll cut you some slack because you've never actually trained with anyone. But there are people here who've not only trained for years, some for lifetimes, and some with people the caliber of Mike Tyson, with professional world champions - some of whom were better than Mike Tyson.

As someone else pointed out, you could learn valuable things here, but you choose not to.

Have to give you some serious props, though. You have great punctuation and can really write well when you choose to.

If they trained with the best and aren't the best. . . . clearly it's not technique that makes the best the best. What are you even telling me to listen to haha!? You could put more effort into the basics but you choose not to like most people that aren't world champions.
Thanks for the compliment though.

 

[Steve]

I'm not even sure what the relevance is but he has a lot going for him besides skill I know that much. I'm sure your friend would like to be stronger, tougher and faster though you should really help him out by giving him this information.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to be stronger. Not sure about tougher and faster... I don't frankly see how he could be tougher or faster. Dude's a honey badger.

 

[Steve]

If they trained with the best and aren't the best. . . . clearly it's not technique that makes the best the best.

No, it's genetics. Prove me wrong.

What are you even telling me to listen to haha!? You could put more effort into the basics but you choose not to like most people that aren't world champions.
Thanks for the compliment though.

How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?

 

[Diagen]

No, it's genetics. Prove me wrong.


How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?

No it's physical prowess and you know jack all about training for such. Prove me wrong. Discussion can only go so far, results are clear. Your friend wants to become stronger and if he doesn't I don't know what the hell any of you are doing in the sport nor in martial arts as self-defense. Strength translates to all aspects of martial arts what kind of nonsense is this? How many layers of ignorance must I pry open or pierce?

World champ in MMA or Striking my mistake. I should probably just repeat myself like I mean to though: WHO HERE IS BETTER THAN MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME? WHO CAN BEAT HIM? WHAT IF HE TRAINED GRAPPLING FOR 2 YEARS TO GET INTO MMA? He would kill, I swear to God.

Your example of "genetics" was **** and doesn't make sense I swear to god if he trained right he could get strong af while retaining much of what he gained from his other training. He could just get up to 160 lbs man, over 5 years let's say, slow bulking while keeping up speed, athleticism, endurance, and increasing strength monsterously. SIZE is not STRENGTH but damn it helps. If you slow bulk, just barely going up in weight to help strength progress, and to hit harder from the added weight, it's monumental.
The point about weight lifting is that he can easily add mass with available programs online (I mean it's dead simple man) to contradict your argument about GENETICS. His strength isn't GENETICS either and there are programs online for strength, without adding size. But apparently strength doesn't matter? Makes no sense.
Just a resignation of one's will that sounds completely nihilistic and like some sort of implosion! Everyone goes through the calcification and implosion but it doesn't end there. Just depends on one's willingness to start expanding horizons.

 

[Buka]

No, it's genetics. Prove me wrong.


How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?

Steve, how much do you figure Helio Gracie weighed in his prime? 150?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can ANYONE talk about the topic without it being about how knowlegdeable and great you all are you egotistical bastards.

Maybe read back. I haven't seen anyone touting their credentials or claiming some high level of knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why is there a lack of will and motivation to become the best here?

You seem to think everyone wants to be the very best at everything they do. That's not at all the case. For most things I do, I'm okay being competent at them. For my MA training, I'm okay being above average among those I train with (in my prime, I prefered being one of the best among those I trained with). For my work, I prefer being the best I can figure out how to be (without needing to compete against others in my head).

Most of us aren't dedicating our lives to MA training - it's a part of our lives, at varying levels, because most of us have higher priorities. Work and family took priority over MA for me about 25 years ago, so I train with a schedule that fits my family and work priorities.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That means IQ too.

By the way, IQ has been shown to have negligible predictive power. People with high IQs do not tend to succeed more often or at higher levels than others with "normal" IQ's (whatever range you care to use for "normal").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If competition is low then there is less motivation to become the best. Competition can be better or worse in every sport in whatever decade for instance. Evolution is driven by pressure basically. If you see excellence you strive higher. If you don't even realize that someone can deadlift 1100 lbs, and most people can train to deadlift 700 lbs, I don't think most people training and trying right now to reach that goal would be.
I don't know who is lying to who about their ability. Pretty sure everyone that thinks they can take Mike Tyson come to that conclusion on their own man.

It has never really mattered to me how much anyone else could deadlift, much less what the maximum is for a human. I lifted because I wanted me to be stronger.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Demetrious Johnson could kick your ***. I am very confident that he could. He is also a small person. I would guess he walks around at about 140 lbs, and is 5'3". Genetics.

Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.

 

[Steve]

Steve, how much do you figure Helio Gracie weighed in his prime? 150?

Yeah, he was another little guy. Rickson was not a little guy. Genetics... go figure!

Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.

As would we all.

Point to Diagen is that he's cherry picking attributes and projecting his own specific ideas about what is desirable on everyone else. He wants to be stronger, so he thinks everyone else must also want to be stronger. And he thinks being strongest (not just stronger) is essential to being effective. Which leads him to suggest that everyone must strive to be the strongest, or they are... I don't quite know... not serious?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.

Pound for pound, possibly the best fighter ever. People disagree, but I stand by this.

 

[Tez3]

Pound for pound, possibly the best fighter ever. People disagree, but I stand by this.

I know a chap who is a phenomenal fighter, best many of us have ever seen BUT, and this will back up what others have said, while he enjoys competing in MMA he regards it as a hobby, he's had offers from UFC but said no thanks, who does that, right? He doesn't want to be the strongest, he doesn't want to be the best fighter ever. He has a career he gets satisfaction from, he has a family he loves,he has hobbies and pastimes he enjoys, he is a contented man. How many can say that? Anger doesn't play any part in his life beyond the normal bits we all have.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

WHO HERE IS BETTER THAN MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME?

Let me make sure I understand your point here ... no one that you are talking to in this discussion could beat Mike Tyson in his prime, therefore their knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and therefore they should just accept whatever argument you are trying to make? Okay ... but if we grant that premise then we also run into the fact that you yourself couldn't beat Mike Tyson in his prime and by the same logic your knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and you should just accept whatever arguments everyone else is making. Man, this gets confusing.

Let's back up and see if I can make sense out of your larger argument. It's difficult because you're kind of all over the place, but if we just focus on the mentions of Tyson it seems to come down to something like the following:
1) Premise - Extreme anger is good and healthy and makes you an effective person and fighter.
2) Mike Tyson was an individual with serious anger issues. (Honestly, I'd say serious mental health issues.)
3) Mike Tyson was, for a while, a dominant boxing champion who seemed unbeatable (until he was beaten)
4) QED, Tyson's success as a fighter must have been due to his anger and point #1 has been proven.

You seem to become upset by all the other arguments which have been presented against your premise in point #1, so let's look at your assumptions going into point #4. If we were to accept your thesis, then we should predict the following: a) great fighters in general should be carrying around a boatload of anger and b) Mike Tyson in particular should have been more effective as he grew angrier - kind of like the Hulk.

Do these predictions hold up? Not really. I've met some world champions and they've generally been calm, friendly, happy people. I think @Buka has met a bunch more and he'll probably say the same thing.

How about Tyson? Did his anger reliably make him more effective? I'll point you to Tyson vs Holyfield 1 and 2. Based on his visible behavior, Tyson was angrier than ever before - but he lost both times to the calmer Holyfield. (Before you argue that Tyson was no longer in his "prime", please remember that Holyfield was 4 years older than Tyson.)

It should also be noted that even if Tyson's anger had helped him in the ring, it clearly contributed to his many problems and his general mess of a life outside the ring. So if you're making an argument for constant anger being a healthy attribute, Tyson is probably the wrong example to choose.

 

[Buka]

Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.

But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.

Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.

Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.

It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.

Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.

Then Holyfield whooped his ash.

Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.

Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.

But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.

 

[Tez3]

Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.

But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.

Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.

Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.

It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.

Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.

Then Holyfield whooped his ash.

Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.

Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.

But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.

I haven't seen or read anything about him for years now, he actually seems a forgotten man on this side of the pond at least. I remember the rape case, his trainers saying they had to keep him on drugs to tranquillise him but after that nothing. It seemed another tragic case of a boxer going downhill.
I'll have to look up what he's been doing I think.

 

[Diagen]

Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.

But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.

Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.

Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.

It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.

Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.

Then Holyfield whooped his ash.

Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.

Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.

But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.

You say it was his undoing but that's emotion. It can help and it can hinder. Anger can make you hit hard but like you say, it is playing with fire. That's what you have to master though. You wind up hitting the wrong person and it's a problem, right?
You can't reach that height without extreme emotional content though, fact! And I mean that in terms of POTENCY. Quality, quantity. Get the lethality right, holster your weapon outside of the cage or whatever.

He did in fact have great skill. His peekaboo was great and that's because he put his emotion into his TRAINING. None of you want to address this yall just regurgitating ****. I am being ignored in favor of everyone's monologue! Just respond to the points I raise ffs!
Your derogitory ******** is just ridiculous. I understand slipping. There's nothing to explain. My point has always been that physical ability, and even mental ability, does not come from nowhere. It is the generation, control and transformation of EMOTION!

His power and speed was insane and he intimidated his enemies on a visceral level. That wasn't some damn technique. Stop talking your vacuous regurgitated crap that sounds rehearsed. You think you know but you won't even listen! I've listened to everything everyone here is saying and I still get the god damned monologues that aren't addressing the CENTRAL QUESTION. If 10 people say the same thing maybe you should try saying something different and reading a bit closer?

His opponents all talked about his knockout power. We all know his KO power. He hits hard. He hits fast. You get hit. That's what it boils down to. What about Ernie Shavers? He hit harder than anyone, great slips or not. You can't argue with that fact, you know it. And what is the source of this physical power? YOU HAVE NO GOD DAMNED CLUE!
So maybe consider what I'm trying to talk about: EMOTION -> PHYSICALITY. If you have no emotional content there's not much physicality to speak of. Are you alive or not? Emotion isn't some virtual thing that doesn't really exist. It affects physiology. It affects the brain even. It affects the body. You can figure that out for yourself. You can figure out HOW TO USE IT. HOW TO MAKE IT USEFUL FOR YOU. But that's not what anyone wants to talk about because ACTUALLY INTERESTING TOPICS are too god damned emotionally and socially affecting so you all need to lobotomize and start sounding off some **** to keep yourselves good robots. Keep refusing to engage with the topic mates!

 

[Diagen]

Maybe read back. I haven't seen anyone touting their credentials or claiming some high level of knowledge.

Plenty of people saying how 1. They and people here know more about technique and that what I'm saying doesn't make sense because they're actual martial artists and I'm not (I guess their instructors are the geniuses). 2. You saying how you actually read scientific journals (haha). 3. Someone said they're in some cognitive science field, graduated. 4. Some long history of seeing people fight, breaking up fights, being a soldier, interrogating and know my mind better than I do, et cetera.
The general rule of posters here is to think they know better until they reach the limit of their knowledge - then they stop responding!
They stop responding!
They stop discussing!
They have nothing to say when they don't know better haha! That's the general trend here. I'm hoping to keep this conversation on track though: I think martial artists are delusional! And those not going to gyms or dojos realize this! Doesn't matter if they say it to your face, they don't want to learn technique for 5 years and gain a modicum of physicality. They want to put in 1 year and get amazing physicality and some basic practical technique. You can't do that for anyone without said knowledge. You also can't get that without Emotional Content. If it's not correct emotionally then it's not drawing in many is it! If no one wants to speak the truth who the hell is going to listen! One has to know the role and use of anger, hate and fear in physicality, in training, in mental ability. How it's TRANSFORMED into something useful so people can generate it then transform it. Same with misery and worry of course.
How does everyone here talk about negativity and emotion with their students? What did your instructors say to you? What happens if I contradict, and argue with what they said to you, haha?

 

[Buka]

You say it was his undoing but that's emotion. It can help and it can hinder. Anger can make you hit hard but like you say, it is playing with fire. That's what you have to master though. You wind up hitting the wrong person and it's a problem, right?
You can't reach that height without extreme emotional content though, fact! And I mean that in terms of POTENCY. Quality, quantity. Get the lethality right, holster your weapon outside of the cage or whatever.

He did in fact have great skill. His peekaboo was great and that's because he put his emotion into his TRAINING. None of you want to address this yall just regurgitating ****. I am being ignored in favor of everyone's monologue! Just respond to the points I raise ffs!
Your derogitory ******** is just ridiculous. I understand slipping. There's nothing to explain. My point has always been that physical ability, and even mental ability, does not come from nowhere. It is the generation, control and transformation of EMOTION!

His power and speed was insane and he intimidated his enemies on a visceral level. That wasn't some damn technique. Stop talking your vacuous regurgitated crap that sounds rehearsed. You think you know but you won't even listen! I've listened to everything everyone here is saying and I still get the god damned monologues that aren't addressing the CENTRAL QUESTION. If 10 people say the same thing maybe you should try saying something different and reading a bit closer?

His opponents all talked about his knockout power. We all know his KO power. He hits hard. He hits fast. You get hit. That's what it boils down to. What about Ernie Shavers? He hit harder than anyone, great slips or not. You can't argue with that fact, you know it. And what is the source of this physical power? YOU HAVE NO GOD DAMNED CLUE!
So maybe consider what I'm trying to talk about: EMOTION -> PHYSICALITY. If you have no emotional content there's not much physicality to speak of. Are you alive or not? Emotion isn't some virtual thing that doesn't really exist. It affects physiology. It affects the brain even. It affects the body. You can figure that out for yourself. You can figure out HOW TO USE IT. HOW TO MAKE IT USEFUL FOR YOU. But that's not what anyone wants to talk about because ACTUALLY INTERESTING TOPICS are too god damned emotionally and socially affecting so you all need to lobotomize and start sounding off some **** to keep yourselves good robots. Keep refusing to engage with the topic mates!

Do you ever make it out to Maui?

 

[Diagen]

You seem to think everyone wants to be the very best at everything they do. That's not at all the case. For most things I do, I'm okay being competent at them. For my MA training, I'm okay being above average among those I train with (in my prime, I prefered being one of the best among those I trained with). For my work, I prefer being the best I can figure out how to be (without needing to compete against others in my head).

Most of us aren't dedicating our lives to MA training - it's a part of our lives, at varying levels, because most of us have higher priorities. Work and family took priority over MA for me about 25 years ago, so I train with a schedule that fits my family and work priorities.

Okay. That makes you a hobbyist! Or an enthusiast! But I know for a fact that there are what, hundreds of people that have viewed this thread since this conversation has been going? Recognizing the usefuleness of emotions is enriching to everyone though. It's good solid stuff. I am most certain that quick tasks require one with a good relationship to anger, and as you say about hate: uncontrolled bias is also FOCUS and creating a psychology and physiology of something. Having emotions and knowing how to use them and control them is great stuff. Having knowledge of them is great stuff.
There is nothing impeding intellectual achievements on these matters at the very least. I mean intellectual achievement in regards to figuring out how to use emotion of course.
I am also aware of how emotions affect relationships. For every relationship I notice they're stressed and anxious about many things. Whenever I have provided knowledge and direction for emotion that is PHYSICAL, MENTAL, RATIONAL, and SOCIAL their anxiety disappears and they're excited to assert themselves as individuals. Of course what I say has to be basically true and whenever I leave one or another aspect out (say, the social, or the rational) they are hesitant. But if all 4 are there they are excited and assertive! That's how you lead mates.

Do you ever make it out to Maui?

Maui is great I've been there once before. Maybe again! Maybe within the next 5 years haha