New faces of Taekwondo

[azmyth]

Ok, a few things to amend.

We "do" point spar.. but we don't sit there and count the points. We just spar. We do wear the hogu, so you know when you got hit. I'm not sure when he stopped doing hands to the head. It doesn't bother me too much, I don't normally do much punching to the head.. mostly backfists and ridgehands.. though I know "how" to attack via fists to the head I don't need to be able to beat the crap out of people in class.

The times he used to do tournaments, I'm fairly sure it wasn't WTF style sparring. Not the ones I participated in anyway. and there are no 8 year old black belts.

we have tenets..

1. I shall observe the tenets of tae kwon do, sir
2. I shall respect instructors and seniors, sir
3. I shall never misuse tae kwon do, sir
4. I shall be a champion of freedom and justice, sir
5. I shall build a more peaceful world, sir

1. courtesy
2. integrity
3. Perserverance
4. Self control
5. Indominate spirit
6. Victory

I know he is a member of MAPA - Martial artists for Peace and I think NAPMA... but only thing I see that he gets out of that is advertising tools, and a pre made newsletter that he can fill school info into. Anyone know anything about NAPMA?

I have seen alot of TKD schools, and most of them are black belt factories. ATA runs rampant in our neck of the woods.. camo belts, and 100 a month fees and crappy technique. I wish there were more schools like the one I attend..

 

[Kacey]

We "do" point spar.. but we don't sit there and count the points. We just spar. We do wear the hogu, so you know when you got hit. I'm not sure when he stopped doing hands to the head. It doesn't bother me too much, I don't normally do much punching to the head.. mostly backfists and ridgehands.. though I know "how" to attack via fists to the head I don't need to be able to beat the crap out of people in class.

When I say point sparring, I mean stopping the match for each point to be awarded and then going on from there - whereas in continuous sparring the points are amassed as the match progresses, and totaled afterwards. We do both.

The times he used to do tournaments, I'm fairly sure it wasn't WTF style sparring. Not the ones I participated in anyway. and there are no 8 year old black belts.

Um... I'm not sure how that applies; I've seen 8 year old BBs in both organizations.

we have tenets..

1. I shall observe the tenets of tae kwon do, sir
2. I shall respect instructors and seniors, sir
3. I shall never misuse tae kwon do, sir
4. I shall be a champion of freedom and justice, sir
5. I shall build a more peaceful world, sir

1. courtesy
2. integrity
3. Perserverance
4. Self control
5. Indominate spirit
6. Victory

These definitely show Ch'ang H'on roots - the ITF uses these except, the word "sir" is not used at th e end of each line, and "Victory" is not a Tenet in the ITF. The rest is directly from The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, by Gen. Choi, Hong Hi.

 

[exile]

Going back to the days when TKD was just Koreanized Karate will undo all the progress made to the system, earacing the knowledge and experience gained during the 50s and 60s. The knowledge and experience that led to the development of a singular supremely effective TKD system.

What specifically do you have in mind by the material I've bolded?

By most accounts, during an era when KMA people like Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins and Roy Kurban, all national 'golden era' MA champions, were competing in brutal knock-down rules contests, the all-time greatest fighter was the karateka Joe Lewis, an exponent of Okinawan Shorin-ryu karate, having studied with Shimabuku and Oyata (a description of his competitive record is given here; his uncharacteristic loss in 1968 was to Vic Moore, another Okinawan karate great and four-time world champion at a time when KMAists competed in open tournaments with O/JMAists on a regular basis). And there were plenty of other greats in those rather brutal and bloody days who, notwithstanding whatever the KMAists had done, had trained in Okinawan or Japanese systems and were feared and formidable opponents in the ring. Why do you characterize the post Korean War TKD technique set as superior to the Okinawan/Japanese karate technique set (as evidenced by your use of the dismissive term 'devolving', in connection with the latter), and what were the specific technical innovations that you're saying gave 70s TKD that alleged superiority?

No one has more respect than I have for the combat potential of TKD. But I have a hard time swallowing the implication in your comments that TKD was superior to its Okinawan/Japanese counterparts. It's a position one can take, sure, but you need to have some very good evidence for it if you want to convince someone who doesn't already believe it. Claiming that one MA is superior to another is taking on a huge burden of proof, one that I've never seen anyone meet on any MT thread, at least.

 

[azmyth]

odd.. from reading up on it.. I see.. there is no Victory.

the sir is just what we say in class, since we are speaking to the instructor and repeating after him.

looking at it now, we are like a hybrid...

because ITF doesn't use hogu's.. and they allow hands to the head. But at the same time. WTF don't fight with their hands up very much.

I'm trying to figure out where we came from.

our instructor studied under the grandmaster from this school
www.youngstkd.com

can you tell what affiliation they are?

 

[newGuy12]

Rest assured that if you're thinking along these lines, there are plenty of other school owners and master instructors thinking that way too. What you're saying here is exactly what I anticipate happening...

Only a matter of time. I don't know much, but I do know this. The cat is out of the bag now, and you're not gonna get him back in. When students see this, they will wish to learn it, this boon-hae, learning the forms at depth. They will seek out the Teachers who offer this, and those schools will bloom.

Hehe -- mark my words.

 

[Laurentkd]

odd.. from reading up on it.. I see.. there is no Victory.

the sir is just what we say in class, since we are speaking to the instructor and repeating after him.

looking at it now, we are like a hybrid...

because ITF doesn't use hogu's.. and they allow hands to the head. But at the same time. WTF don't fight with their hands up very much.

I'm trying to figure out where we came from.

our instructor studied under the grandmaster from this school
www.youngstkd.com

can you tell what affiliation they are?

Hmmm... I was going to say that if you do ITF forms I would say you were an ITF school. However, the website's history section talks about the WTF and Kukkiwon and the master's page states that the first few masters hold rank both in the WTF and ITF, so it appears you are a mutt
Do you have a WTF or Kukkiwon or ITF flag hanging at your school (I assume there are ITF flags)? That may also give you a clue.

To me forms are the most important part of a schools curriculum, so I say if you do ITF forms I would consider you an ITF school unless specifically told otherwise.
Just one opinion.

 

[azmyth]

no ITF flags.. just the korean and american...

We do ITF forms, and we "spar" like ITF... but with what seems like WTF rules and stipulations. we don't do "stop" point sparring in class, we do continuous.. but all his tournaments have been "stop" point sparring. I'm very confused. I'd ask my instructor.. but it may be that he just decided to take a little from both.

 

[foot2face]

Claiming that one MA is superior to another is taking on a huge burden of proof, one that I've never seen anyone meet on any MT thread, at least.

I made no such claim. In many of my past post I have extolled the virtues of other systems. I written before that there is no best system just different methods. Frankly, I don’t understand why you would interpret my comments as a “TKD is superior to Karate” post. Never the less, the fact is that TKD evolved from mostly JMAs, just like Okinawan Karate evolved from CMAs. I like the TKD I’ve been taught. I don’t want it changed back to Karate, just like Karate parishioners wouldn’t want their systems to devolve back into Kung Fu. Its not an issue of superiority but of preserving the knowledge handed down to me from men I deeply respected. I didn't mean "devolve" as an insult, I was merely trying to indicating the undoing of all the alteration made to the contributing arts that led to the development of TKD as I know it. I believe I may have struck a nerve, exposing the sensitivity you have about your cherished system, I understand, I can get the same way about my style.

By most accounts, during an era when KMA people like Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins and Roy Kurban, all national 'golden era' MA champions, were competing in brutal knock-down rules contests, the all-time greatest fighter was the karateka Joe Lewis, an exponent of Okinawan Shorin-ryu karate, having studied with Shimabuku and Oyata (a description of his competitive record is given [/SIZE][/FONT]here; his uncharacteristic loss in 1968 was to Vic Moore, another Okinawan karate great and four-time world champion at a time when KMAists competed in open tournaments with O/JMAists on a regular basis). And there were plenty of other greats in those rather brutal and bloody days who, notwithstanding whatever the KMAists had done, had trained in Okinawan or Japanese systems and were feared and formidable opponents in the ring.

Considering how you speak about the regrettable trend towards Sport TKD, I’m a little surprised that you would point to the game of knock-down rules Karate to demonstrate the effectiveness of Okinawan karate. I’ve known great Okinawan stylist, and their systems were so much more sophisticated and effective than what could be demonstrated through a sport.

 

[exile]

Claiming that one MA is superior to another is taking on a huge burden of proof, one that I've never seen anyone meet on any MT thread, at least.

I made no such claim. In many of my past post I have extolled the virtues of other systems. I written before that there is no best system just different methods. Frankly, I don’t understand why you would interpret my comments as a “TKD is superior to Karate” post. Never the less, the fact is that TKD evolved from mostly JMAs, just like Okinawan Karate evolved from CMAs. I like the TKD I’ve been taught. I don’t want it changed back to Karate, just like Karate parishioners wouldn’t want their systems to devolve back into Kung Fu. Its not an issue of superiority but of preserving the knowledge handed down to me from men I deeply respected. I didn't mean "devolve" as an insult, I was merely trying to indicating the undoing of all the alteration made to the contributing arts that led to the development of TKD as I know it. I believe I may have struck a nerve, exposing the sensitivity you have about your cherished system, I understand, I can get the same way about my style.

OK, point taken, but the problem is that 'devolve' is definitely a loaded word. E.g., the online dictionary definition here gives

devolve
A verb
1 devolve, [synonyms:] deteriorate, drop, degenerate
grow worse; "Her condition deteriorated"; "Conditions in the slums degenerated"; "The discussion devolved into a shouting match"
​

as its primary definition, and the others they give are for the somewhat different item that means 'pass responsiblity to' (devolve upon). So the only sense of 'devolve' meaning 'change in form' they give has completely negative connotations, and my other dictionaries all agree on that point. So when I saw 'devolve' in your post, I took you to be saying that the O/J systems were primitive in comparison to the KMA systems of the 1970s, in effect less fit for the task of self defense. Since you meant something more like 'revert', no value judgment involved, there's no quarrel.

Originally Posted by foot2face
I believe I may have struck a nerve, exposing the sensitivity you have about your cherished system, I understand, I can get the same way about my style.

Well no, I don't think I'm thin-skinned in that particular way; but I'm uncomfortable with negative comparisons between MAs. Again, it hinged on the sense of 'devolve' that you were using.

By most accounts, during an era when KMA people like Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins and Roy Kurban, all national 'golden era' MA champions, were competing in brutal knock-down rules contests, the all-time greatest fighter was the karateka Joe Lewis, an exponent of Okinawan Shorin-ryu karate, having studied with Shimabuku and Oyata (a description of his competitive record is given here; his uncharacteristic loss in 1968 was to Vic Moore, another Okinawan karate great and four-time world champion at a time when KMAists competed in open tournaments with O/JMAists on a regular basis). And there were plenty of other greats in those rather brutal and bloody days who, notwithstanding whatever the KMAists had done, had trained in Okinawan or Japanese systems and were feared and formidable opponents in the ring.

Considering how you speak about the regrettable trend towards Sport TKD, I’m a little surprised that you would point to the game of knock-down rules Karate to demonstrate the effectiveness of Okinawan karate. I’ve known great Okinawan stylist, and their systems were so much more sophisticated and effective than what could be demonstrated through a sport.

Given what I thought you were saying, I don't think I was being inconsistent. Combat effectiveness is my primary criterion, always, for a martial artication as the natural or inevitable development of what were created to be practical self-defense systems. But if the comparison were being made, to the disadvantage of the O/J systems, the success of O/J competitiors in a very strong field would be a datum that would definitely embarrass any attempt to claim that those systems were inferior.

But since you were just saying that you didn't want the TKD of the 70s, which you esteem, to revert to the TKD of the Kwan era, there's nothing really at issue, eh?

So now, let me try to pin you down on this: just what are the characteristics of the pre-Olympic TKD you like that are different from the Kwan era TKD that I like? The addition of more complex, higher kicks? Or is there something else?

 

[azmyth]

which division of TKD does the sine wave?

 

[newGuy12]

which division of TKD does the sine wave?

ITF. General Choi said to do that. Here is a link to a video of him demonstrating that:

We don't do sine wave motions. If my school were to be put into one of the two groups ITF or WTF, it would be WTF (we are in neither now). We were never taught sine wave motions. We just step forward and execute, not up and down.

 

[azmyth]

sounds like my school is neither as well..

we don't do the sine wave
we do have the ITF tenets
we do have the ITF rankings
we don't do olympic style sparring
we do put our hands up
we do the chang hon patterns
we don't have hands to the head
we do wear Hogu's


Yep, I think we may be slightly closer to ITF than WTF.. but its almost split right down the middle.

I think not being affiliated with either is almost a good thing.. because for example.. if your affiliated with ATA.. your going to do song ahm patterns, and if your ITF or WTF.. you cannot teach the song ahm patterns. If you are not affiliated with any of those, you are not limited to what you can learn or teach.

 

[Kacey]

sounds like my school is neither as well..

we don't do the sine wave
we do have the ITF tenets
we do have the ITF rankings
we don't do olympic style sparring
we do put our hands up
we do the chang hon patterns
we don't have hands to the head
we do wear Hogu's


Yep, I think we may be slightly closer to ITF than WTF.. but its almost split right down the middle.

There are plenty of independents out there who started in one or the other, left, and took the parts they liked of both variants. I don't see a problem with it.

I think not being affiliated with either is almost a good thing.. because for example.. if your affiliated with ATA.. your going to do song ahm patterns, and if your ITF or WTF.. you cannot teach the song ahm patterns. If you are not affiliated with any of those, you are not limited to what you can learn or teach.

It depends - I know of WTF schools that teach Ch'ang H'on (ITF) tuls, that teach hyungs, that teach poomse - or some combination. I came from an ITF background, and, while we were never taught anything but tuls, the association I currently belong to has minimum rank requirements - but nothing says you can't go beyond the minimum.

 

[newGuy12]

Right. Some are so situated that you cannot choose which type of school to attend, one in the ITF or in the WTF. Now, of course, the better Teacher will be surrounded by the better students anyway, and people should join a school with the better Instructors.

I would not fret about these affiliations. If you wish to compete at a high level in some kind of sporting events, then it may become more important. I do not do that, and for me, it all comes down to the particular school that I am a member of, and the other schools in our "Family" -- there are three others, that's all.

I have little regard for affiliations of the sort of ITF and WTF. No, you see, the side kick is still the side kick. Different schools do it differently, but, you pick a horse and ride it.

Those of us who practice hard enough long enough will feel a good feeling with our motions. They will be joyful to do. A certificate on the wall, though it is precious, cannot by itself give me this.

In the old days, when my first GM practiced in the mountains, there was no such thing as an ITF, and no such thing as a WTF. Such things were not the matter of course. They came later. Back in the day, I was told, that you just had schools. Eventually, there would be tournaments, and people would say, "Who won that tournament?" -- and they MEANT --> "What SCHOOL won that tournament", they did NOT mean "What human being won". At that point, there was trouble, bad feelings among schools that got worse. I was told that this was one of the reasons that General Choi wanted to unify things -- there were hard feelings between schools. That is what I was told.

And yet, He and many others learned Tae Kwon Do just fine thank you, without all of these governing bodies!

 

[matt.m]

Wow,

Call me an old fogie at the rip old age of early 30's, but Tae Kwon Do is an art. Period, end of story. I once thought that Shotokan Karate got butchered the worst, now I am not so sure. I see all these black belts who are great at demo or breaking but can not do poomsea to save their lives. In the national to olympic competition of Tae Kwon Do I believe that anything that the powers with the gold can do to ruin Tae Kwon Do will, just for the sake of the almight buckola.

I am a traditionalist, sorry. I am the same way with Yudo.........There are two different Tae Kwon Do's and Two different Yudo's, the art and the flashy competition aspect that is just driven by the almighty dollar.

I have been a blue belt for over a year in Tae Kwon Do, however I didn't feel ready for purple by my own standards. I have almost double the points I need to test but I don't care.... On the other hand I have seen people go from white to purple in a year and a half from other schools. It just does not compare.

Maybe I am starting a fight or being to harsh, but I do hold my own self to a higher standard. Just my .02

 

[Kacey]

Maybe I am starting a fight or being to harsh, but I do hold my own self to a higher standard. Just my .02

Integrity is its own reward. :asian: Those who do not have it will never understand; those who do will agree with you.

 

[tkdmark]

I was thinking the same thing about the #6 tenet Victory. Never heard that one, but then again I'm still pretty new to everything.

 

[terryl965]

Integrity is its own reward. :asian: Those who do not have it will never understand; those who do will agree with you.

Yes it is and always will be.