Need Some Advice on Sparring

[Cyriacus]

The competition yesterday was at a local high school and was put on by one of the local tkd academies (U.S.A.T rules; all ages and skill sets). (I just googled "open tournament tkd" and that was the first one to pop up.) It was an all-day event, but I just went in the afternoon to watch the sparring --an eye-opener in many ways.

1) The most intense match was between what looked to be two twelve-year old girls: we're talking kicks to the head and face, parents and coaches yelling at the ref, one kid broke down crying -- the whole shabang. Not exactly sure what to make of that one.
2) The adult blackbelts were pretty darn incredible -- the one guy that should have won (but somehow got injured after the first game and didn't go on) -- his movements were so precise and "to-the-point," it was just beautiful to watch.
3) Of the more evenly-matched folks, it seems like it all came down to stamina.

Bottom line -- I'd still love to give it a go. There's apparently a big tournament (the Governor's cup) in mid-May, so I'll talk to the sabum tomorrow, about what he thinks. I just need to work on my defense and up my cardio on the off-practice days. (So far, I've followed the "Leeroy Jenkins" approach to sparring -- overwhelm them with kicks and worry about the rest later, which is probably not going to fly with a) actual contact/points; and b) people in my category that know what they're doing and have a strategy for how to do it.

Going Leroy Jenkins works about as well in Sport TKD as it does in Boxing/Kickboxing/MT/MMA.
Youll both get to find out who can get hit the most times before dropping.

 

[bugatabugata]

True, true, but then again -- I could probably use a good butt-kicking (or two), to beat some of the enthusiasm out of me ! We'll see how this contact sparring/competing business goes...I'm still pretty jazzed about it!

 

[puunui]

You fight the way you train. So cliche, so true.

I wonder. For example, for those that train primarily using forms, often when put in a fighting or even sparring situation, they discover that their form techniques are ineffective and end up reverting to untrained natural instinct.

 

[dancingalone]

I wonder. For example, for those that train primarily using forms, often when put in a fighting or even sparring situation, they discover that their form techniques are ineffective and end up reverting to untrained natural instinct.

Forms training should include cooperative and resistant partner drills with plenty of up close and personal contact. Really it shouldn't look unlike any other practical goals training, including tactical SD systems or sparring heavy systems. The only difference is that the ideas within the pattern are considered valuable and so they serve as a starting place in designing the drills used by the teacher.

 

[puunui]

Forms training should include cooperative and resistant partner drills with plenty of up close and personal contact. Really it shouldn't look unlike any other practical goals training, including tactical SD systems or sparring heavy systems. The only difference is that the ideas within the pattern are considered valuable and so they serve as a starting place in designing the drills used by the teacher.

Would you say what you describe above is a recent development or one that has been around for a long time, say a hundred years or more?

 

[dancingalone]

Would you say what you describe above is a recent development or one that has been around for a long time, say a hundred years or more?

I dunno. Karate people in particular argue about that all day. Depending on whom you believe, the tegumi wrestling arts may have provided Okinawan karate-ka their 'live' training opportunities before sparring became a widespread activity.

I wouldn't doubt that some of the southeast Asia arts such as silat trained in the way I described above. Unfortunately, this is also a case of 'who do you believe', as I don't believe they documented their art either. As perhaps a more solid example, I believe kobudo was used effectively as a form of villager self-defense and this too uses kata, both solo and partner-based, as a primary learning tool.

Regardless of history, I think there is little doubt as to how forms SHOULD be trained, if we want to use them to develop actual fighting skill and not merely physical attributes like balance, speed, precision, etc. I don't mind going against 'tradition' if need be. I love the idea of preserving something old but that's a secondary goal compared to practicality.

 

[puunui]

Regardless of history, I think there is little doubt as to how forms SHOULD be trained, if we want to use them to develop actual fighting skill and not merely physical attributes like balance, speed, precision, etc. I don't mind going against 'tradition' if need be. I love the idea of preserving something old but that's a secondary goal compared to practicality.

So I have been thinking about iaido for some reason recently, and to that end, I tried to look for what was out there in my area. I found one webpage with this explanation:

*

Iaido is an art, or perhaps training method, using a real (or almost real) sword in solo practice. Katas
(practice exercises) start and end with sheathed sword, and hence involve the drawing and sheathing of
the sword. Iaido is most often translated as the way of harmonious living, the art of adapting to circumstance,
or the way of being here and now. The name consists of iru (being), ai (harmony), and do (path or way).
In iaido, the practitioner battles non-material opponents with techniques that today are completely obsolete
and devoid of practical application, and do not even offer the satisfaction of affirming superiority over
other practitioners through competition. As a true Budo (martial way), iaido is a battle with the self, a
cutting away of all redundancies. Through precise movements of kata, the practitioner seeks to mobilize
his or her entire being, to unite the intention, action, and sword, every detail being a matter of life and
death. Through this unification of sense, will, and action, the sword becomes a tool for spiritual and
personal development.

*

What do you think about that?

We went to watch an iaido class this weekend. I don't think iaido is for me, at least at this stage of the journey. Perhaps later. Much later.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dunno. Karate people in particular argue about that all day. Depending on whom you believe, the tegumi wrestling arts may have provided Okinawan karate-ka their 'live' training opportunities before sparring became a widespread activity.

I wouldn't doubt that some of the southeast Asia arts such as silat trained in the way I described above. Unfortunately, this is also a case of 'who do you believe', as I don't believe they documented their art either. As perhaps a more solid example, I believe kobudo was used effectively as a form of villager self-defense and this too uses kata, both solo and partner-based, as a primary learning tool.

Regardless of history, I think there is little doubt as to how forms SHOULD be trained, if we want to use them to develop actual fighting skill and not merely physical attributes like balance, speed, precision, etc. I don't mind going against 'tradition' if need be. I love the idea of preserving something old but that's a secondary goal compared to practicality.

I couldnt agree more with your last sentence.

 

[puunui]

As perhaps a more solid example, I believe kobudo was used effectively as a form of villager self-defense and this too uses kata, both solo and partner-based, as a primary learning tool.

Self defense against who?

 

[Twin Fist]

if he is teaching non contact sparring, you are not learning martial arts and if you have given him one single dime, you have been robbed.

Hi guys,

Long term lurker/relative newbie here -- have been busting my behind at taekwondo (both literally and figuratively) for about a year now. My issue is that my favorite part of practice is sparring (it's just pure adrenaline-fueled fun!); but, because the school I attend is small and more on the family-friendly side (i.e. a bunch of kids at the advanced classes), we spar a couple of times a month, if that, and when we do, it's no-contact.

I adore and respect the sabum, and have absolutely no desire to switch schools, as long as he keeps teaching there, but I'd really like to test myself against somebody that's in the same age/weight/sex/skill set and, well, do some actual "contact" sparring. Any advice on how to bring this up to the Master, without sounding like an overly-confident, violent tool? Is there anything else I could do, short of picking fights at bars :wink1:?

Thank you for your help and advice!

 

[Twin Fist]

This is horrible advice. Schools may focus on non-contact sparring for many valid reasons.

no, there is not.

non contact for beginners? ok

non contact for everyone? that aint martial arts

 

[bugatabugata]

He's a fantastic teacher with 50+ years of MA experience and I have learned A LOT from him. We do tons of kicking drills, combinations and cardio, in addition to the forms; he talks to us about the philosophy and history of the art, etc. The way I see it, sparring's something that I'd really like to do, but is not the end-all and be-all of my tkd training.

 

[Twin Fist]

if you never spar, you dont know martial arts. martial arts without FIGHTING, is like a virgin watching porn.




All theory

 

[dancingalone]

Self defense against who?

Ruffians and each other. There's no evidence I am aware of that Okinawan kobudo was ever used against the samurai invaders.

[snipped quote about iaido]
What do you think about that?

I think that's very Zen and befitting a koryu Japanese art. And not for me, despite my considerable experience in aikido. I do train for mushin no shin (hopefully), but that's always based on the idea of defeating an antagonist at its core.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

if you never spar, you dont know martial arts. martial arts without FIGHTING, is like a virgin watching porn.




All theory

Exactly. It would be like trying to learn a trade (painter, plumber, electrician, carpenter) by just sitting in a classroom and learning the 'theory' behind the trade. There comes a point where that theory has to be put into practical use. You can explain to an apprentice all the things that may go wrong in their job and how to troubleshoot those problems but they are not truly a tradesperson until they have worked on their own, had things go wrong and applied the things they were taught for real. You cant 'explain' to someone what its like to get hit hard, its something you have to experience first hand. Of course this all comes back again to why someone is doing martial arts in the first place, but the way I see it, if you want fun, fitness, flexibility and to meet new friends you do aerobics, if you want to learn to fight/defend yourself then you do martial arts. Thats not to say that martial arts cant be fun and social etc, but what sets martial arts apart from other physical activities is that you are learning to defend yourself.

 

[puunui]

Ruffians and each other. There's no evidence I am aware of that Okinawan kobudo was ever used against the samurai invaders.

Personally, I think that while that might have been the internal justification for training in Okinawa, in practical reality, I don't know how much it was really used, against ruffians or anyone else.

I think that's very Zen and befitting a koryu Japanese art. And not for me, despite my considerable experience in aikido. I do train for mushin no shin (hopefully), but that's always based on the idea of defeating an antagonist at its core.

I think more and more martial arts are going in this direction, no contact, practicality not a factor for training. I think most of my generation (and yours) took up the martial arts for "self defense" or like I like to say for "self offense" purposes, but today's generation is different, just like how you are different from your parents.

 

[dancingalone]

Personally, I think that while that might have been the internal justification for training in Okinawa, in practical reality, I don't know how much it was really used, against ruffians or anyone else.

No one knows in truth either way. The Okinawan people weren't much for writing down historical records. There's certainly enough evidence to connect kobudo back to the Chinese weapon arts however. And we know it was well into the late 1800s before firearms became commonplace with legal and military authorities there and in Japan.

I think more and more martial arts are going in this direction, no contact, practicality not a factor for training. I think most of my generation (and yours) took up the martial arts for "self defense" or like I like to say for "self offense" purposes, but today's generation is different, just like how you are different from your parents.

Arguably all martial arts lost much of their 'punch' with the wide availability of the handgun, in the US at least. I recognize that. I still train and teach MA for practical usage however - we never know what will happen. A small number of my students HAVE used what they learned from me in class. One young woman fought off a sexual predator using her reverse punch augmented by a pen. Another student subdued and arrested a perp using a jacket-assisted arm lock. I think unarmed martial arts training (and some archaic weapons practice too) is still relevant today.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Id love to know the actual stats on why people start martial arts, but its obviously impossible to do so. A lot of people who start MA dont want to come straight out and say "Ive started because I want to know how to fight", because it does sound a bit "wanky". My first job was working as a gym instructor and personal trainer at my father's gym and when I was writing gym programs and doing fitness assessments one of the questions on the sign-up form was "why have you decided to start weights training?", and almost everyone said "to get fit, strong, to meet people"etc etc, but after they had trained there for a year or two and knew me personally they would say "I started weights to get girls" or "so I can walk down the beach with no shirt on looking ripped" etc. There was no way though, that they would have told me that when they first joined because they didnt want to look like a tool. Martial arts is similar, not many people will walk into a dojo for the first time and proclaim "Im here to learn how to fight", its a lot more 'politically correct" to say that they want fun, fitness, health etc.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No one knows in truth either way. The Okinawan people weren't much for writing down historical records. There's certainly enough evidence to connect kobudo back to the Chinese weapon arts however. And we know it was well into the late 1800s before firearms became commonplace with legal and military authorities there and in Japan.



Arguably all martial arts lost much of their 'punch' with the wide availability of the handgun, in the US at least. I recognize that. I still train and teach MA for practical usage however - we never know what will happen. A small number of my students HAVE used what they learned from me in class. One young woman fought off a sexual predator using her reverse punch augmented by a pen. Another student subdued and arrested a perp using a jacket-assisted arm lock. I think unarmed martial arts training (and some archaic weapons practice too) is still relevant today.

It certainly is still relevent today and nothing can damage a school's reputation quicker than word getting out that one of their black belts got owned by 'regular joe' at the pub on saturday night. I remember that happening when I was at high school. There were a heap of kids doing karate at some club running out of our school hall, they were mostly all black belts and thought they were the cobra kai. One day at a party one of them got in a fight and got bashed pretty badly by some little kid with no real training. Needless to say that club became the laughing stock of our school after that.

 

[puunui]

No one knows in truth either way. The Okinawan people weren't much for writing down historical records. There's certainly enough evidence to connect kobudo back to the Chinese weapon arts however. And we know it was well into the late 1800s before firearms became commonplace with legal and military authorities there and in Japan.

I don't know even about that. I am just thinking about the Okinawan people in general being very calm and non argumentative and not very physically aggressive. There is a somewhat large Okinawan population here. In fact, one of my oldest friends from the first grade has Okinawan blood.