Need more advice in cane fight practice

[Blindside]

I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring.

The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist.
If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer.

Great post.

Yes, I generally agree, which is why you see a lot of overwraps to the arms in these matches rather than stick grabs. The tomahawk video you see a bunch of grabbing of the haft because they are tomahawks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Nobody can effectively block all the attack.

1. I don't know anyone who has sparred that thinks this.
2. Not all of your attacks will be effective and not all of your attacks will land.

There's that 40° angle that often pops up in martial arts

Thanks for sharing. I always like seeing footwork. So many times people will show a video and it will only be the top half

 

[lklawson]

Yes, if only people learn the fancy moves, they will come out unscated.

None of what you wrote even makes sense, nor does it track to what I wrote.

You keep talking about "fancy moves" but that is a meaningless term and, even then, you seem to be misusing or dramatically misunderstanding what any of it means.

It's not about "fancy," it's about actual training. One set of fighters were trained and you could tell. They used movement, strategy, and tactics which kept them safe and respected their weapons and opponent. The other set clearly had no training and they moved and attacked in such a way that consistently put themselves in danger when they didn't have to be and they had no idea they were doing so. The fact is, when people with training treat swords like, well, swords instead of sticks, then it changes how they fight and, therefore, the outcomes.

Further, to the other point of my post, your claim that "seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean" is not only inaccurate, but easily disproved. It is unclear if your misstatement is solely due to lack of training or if it includes lack of basic research but, nevertheless, it is wrong.

I don't expect to change your Dunning-Kruger opinion that you don't need to get training, nor do I expect to change your equally fallacious beliefs about the efficacy of training or even the erroneous belief that all participants in a sword fight are going to get "cuts." It seems pretty clear that you just want rubber-stamps for your preexisting opinions. I am, however, going to correct those statements because I don't want some lurker to think they're right.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How long does it usually take for students to "find their feet" and to be comfortable to with the footwork used in your system?

 

[lklawson]

I know almost nothing of swordsmanship, but I find it fascinating.

It's not what the detractors suggest. Over-all it's not bad but it's not great either. Most of it is stuff that anyone could could logic out for themselves. So, to be honest, I don't really think the book serves much of a purpose. Basically, the person buying that book is paying Elmore to do some very basic thinking for them. The biggest problem that the book has is that Elmore is the author and he has a lot of baggage. I don't have a particularly high opinion of him as a person or martial artist and, at the time of the writing of that book, he had very little training.

I was a member of his forum at the time and he posted a leading thread inviting members to talk about how Street Sword was the bestest book ever ever written on the modern use of the sword. When I disagreed and gave him a few different alternatives, he was less than enthused with me.

I have your book, I enjoyed reading it, though i must confess I had to do some additional research to get a better understanding of terms. If I were closer I would love the opportunity to train with you.

Thank you. It would be a great help to me if you could tell me what terms made you have to do extra work. I wanted my book to but pretty much explanatory and if you had to go elsewhere to find information to understand, then I missed the mark and need to get better.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I have many books on martial arts, and some of them are the best books I've ever read. That is not one of them.

This is accurate. It's not a horrible book but it's not really good either. And it's not really about sword-vs-sword, or even sword-vs-weapon, per se. It's kinda more about sword-vs-home-invader.

If it makes you feel better, I dislike martial artists in general, but I make exceptions and you're one of them so far.

Thank you.

For sword stuff I tend to stick to the oldest material I can find, which tends to be the best. I may have mentioned it before but I train in the Chinese Moon Flowing Saber, Double Sabers, but using Niten Doraku's methods as an underlying framework. Because of this, I was able to avoid even considering that book. Because I have little money to spare and I'd rather spend it on lessons with humans rather than dead wood and Kindle e-books.

Now-days, my sword study focuses mostly on 19th Century U.S./European military saber and cutlass. I've entered into a one-sided bro-mance with Tuohy (being that he's dead and all).

I keep meaning to do more work in la Verdadera Destreza and Meyer's Dusak, but just haven't forced myself to set aside the time for it.

I do like both 19th C. European dueling saber and the earlier Cut-and-Thrust single-handed sword methods because they both track really well onto Bowie Knife.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Blindside]

How long does it usually take for students to "find their feet" and to be comfortable to with the footwork used in your system?

And be utilized under pressure? Three years or so. Defensive footwork tends to take longer than offensive.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And be utilized under pressure?

This is a good distinction

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's not what the detractors suggest. Over-all it's not bad but it's not great either. Most of it is stuff that anyone could could logic out for themselves. So, to be honest, I don't really think the book serves much of a purpose. Basically, the person buying that book is paying Elmore to do some very basic thinking for them. The biggest problem that the book has is that Elmore is the author and he has a lot of baggage. I don't have a particularly high opinion of him as a person or martial artist and, at the time of the writing of that book, he had very little training.

I was a member of his forum at the time and he posted a leading thread inviting members to talk about how Street Sword was the bestest book ever ever written on the modern use of the sword. When I disagreed and gave him a few different alternatives, he was less than enthused with me.



Thank you. It would be a great help to me if you could tell me what terms made you have to do extra work. I wanted my book to but pretty much explanatory and if you had to go elsewhere to find information to understand, then I missed the mark and need to get better.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not at all, it’s great! I have the hutton books as well, they are far more difficult to absorb since I have no sword training. I think your book is well written and easy to understand for most people, I’m just a tad slow.

 

[lklawson]

Not at all, it’s great! I have the hutton books as well, they are far more difficult to absorb since I have no sword training. I think your book is well written and easy to understand for most people, I’m just a tad slow.

OK. Thanks.

Yeah, sometimes slogging through pics and the written word for a given technique can be somewhat dry.

I like Hutton's stuff for the most part. I have a fencing Maestro friend who says he thinks Hutton's duelling sabre is a good system. From him, that was a very solid endorsement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Alan0354]

None of what you wrote even makes sense, nor does it track to what I wrote.

You keep talking about "fancy moves" but that is a meaningless term and, even then, you seem to be misusing or dramatically misunderstanding what any of it means.

It's not about "fancy," it's about actual training. One set of fighters were trained and you could tell. They used movement, strategy, and tactics which kept them safe and respected their weapons and opponent. The other set clearly had no training and they moved and attacked in such a way that consistently put themselves in danger when they didn't have to be and they had no idea they were doing so. The fact is, when people with training treat swords like, well, swords instead of sticks, then it changes how they fight and, therefore, the outcomes.

Further, to the other point of my post, your claim that "seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean" is not only inaccurate, but easily disproved. It is unclear if your misstatement is solely due to lack of training or if it includes lack of basic research but, nevertheless, it is wrong.

I don't expect to change your Dunning-Kruger opinion that you don't need to get training, nor do I expect to change your equally fallacious beliefs about the efficacy of training or even the erroneous belief that all participants in a sword fight are going to get "cuts." It seems pretty clear that you just want rubber-stamps for your preexisting opinions. I am, however, going to correct those statements because I don't want some lurker to think they're right.

Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.

 

[Blindside]

Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.

Then you are missing a great resource. Your loss.

 

[Alan0354]

1. I don't know anyone who has sparred that thinks this.
2. Not all of your attacks will be effective and not all of your attacks will land.

There's that 40° angle that often pops up in martial arts

Thanks for sharing. I always like seeing footwork. So many times people will show a video and it will only be the top half

I sparred in kick boxing for years and I say that. It depends on how fast and how good the opponent is. Don't count on it. Like most boxing and even MMA people, head movement, foot work and parrying type of simple technique is the best option. Not any fancy moves.

For bare knuckle, Like practice punching, then immediate move the head away, hold the hands up to protect the head, step away using footwork. A lot of boxing people are doing it, just move the head away right after punching. You do NOT wait for the attack comes, then use "special" blocking to block the attack. People's reflex is not that fast to see the attack coming, then use technique to block.

It is so laughable of like TKD or Wing Chung to raise the forearm and elbow to block the punch, all the fancy sticky hands. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME EVEN TO PRACTICE THOSE. You get killed using that. My teacher did not even make us practice any of those. We only practice katas 2 weeks before belt test.

Head movement, footwork, parrying.

 

[Alan0354]

I yet to watch this, too busy, just blew the tire and I am busy shopping. I'll be back.

Thanks

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One think I notice more and more, also watching your videos. There's NO really good way to block the strikes reliably. You both landed on each other. It's NOT like people want to make others to believe you can have defensive blocking that are very effective and you can block the incoming strikes reliably.

It depends on what you mean by “block the strikes reliably.” No, you can”t count on being able stand there and block every shot from a skilled and determined opponent. You also can’t count on being able to avoid every shot from a skilled and determined opponent through dodging or footwork or any other method. The goal is to have a good enough defense and offense so that you will land a disabling blow before your opponent does. That defense will include blocks, distancing, angled footwork, grappling, and the threat of pre-emptive offense. I think you denigrated blocks in a few other posts. Trust me, any experienced stick fighter will have blocking skills as an important tool in his/her repertoire. In the video you are reacting to, Lamont would have been hit a lot more if he didn’t have some good blocking skill.

That said, for your stated purpose in training blocking will be much less important. When you’re fighting with a stick against an opponent armed with another long weapon, then you have to be able to block. I believe you have said that your goal is to be able to defend against an unarmed attacker. In that scenario the easier option is just to hit the attacker as they try to reach you.

 

[Alan0354]

It depends on what you mean by “block the strikes reliably.” No, you can”t count on being able stand there and block every shot from a skilled and determined opponent. You also can’t count on being able to avoid every shot from a skilled and determined opponent through dodging or footwork or any other method. The goal is to have a good enough defense and offense so that you will land a disabling blow before your opponent does. That defense will include blocks, distancing, angled footwork, grappling, and the threat of pre-emptive offense. I think you denigrated blocks in a few other posts. Trust me, any experienced stick fighter will have blocking skills as an important tool in his/her repertoire. In the video you are reacting to, Lamont would have been hit a lot more if he didn’t have some good blocking skill.

That said, for your stated purpose in training blocking will be much less important. When you’re fighting with a stick against an opponent armed with another long weapon, then you have to be able to block. I believe you have said that your goal is to be able to defend against an unarmed attacker. In that scenario the easier option is just to hit the attacker as they try to reach you.

Thanks for your response.

Yes, I have no intention to get into stick fight match, just day to day self defense, Just want the fastest to get the best result. Also being practice on my own, there is no good way to practice blocking. You really need an opponent to do that.

That said, I am green in sticks, but I am not totally green in MA, . I did a few years of kick boxing type (supposedly TKD, but my teacher did not do traditional TKD moves, maybe that's the reason I am not into those tradition moves). I did quite a bit of sparring. Our teacher stressed on very simple defensive moves....footwork, head movement, parrying type of simple defensive technique, technique that close to the natural response of normal people. eg, if something flying towards your face, you duck!!! you move your head away, you swat the object with you hand. Those are the natural instinct, we are BUILD on this natural instinct. You can see in MMA and sparring, nobody use those defensive move taught in the TMA. I just relate this knowledge into stick practice. Meaning I tend to move back, to the side right after I strike regardless. Hoping this will get away from the counter attack. I practice moving around to make it harder for the opponent. I was also taught when retreating, throw punches or kicks as I retreat. This is NOT about landing a strike, it's to disrupt the attacker's sequence, also you might block some in coming punches or kicks. ( I really think that's what happens a lot of time in sparring, people just brag about blocking the punches or kicks where the truth is you throw your hands out, you are going to catch something some times!!!)

Then I concentrate in hitting hard, closing the distance and hit, then moving out after the hitting sequence. I practice 2 to 3 hits in one attack so if I miss the first, I still have follow up.

Since I talked on this thread, I learn the fight can turn to close in fighting, so I practice switching between strike and thrusting. And I am thinking about if the fight get too close, I just drop the stick and use elbows, knees to fight. I saw the video of Lamont Glass fight, seems like if the opponent want to get close in, hanging onto the cane/stick might be a disadvantage as it tie up one hand(for me is two hands). So maybe dropping the cane and go bare knuckle might be better off. I do practice elbows on heavy bags a lot and knee the heavy bag, so it's not a very hard transition from cane to that.

Let me know what do you think about dropping the cane and go bare knuckles if the attacker gets to my face. I definitely feel more comfortable doing it bare hand than with the stick. I am still trying to think how I can draw from almost a year of Judo when I was very young. That might be hard. Thinking of it the guy is really at my face, I just reach for his waste and to a Hip Throw of Judo!!! That.....I don't have confidence, it's been over 50 years since I learn Judo!!!

Thanks

 

[Alan0354]

I must be hitting harder after a week practicing body motion!! I just hit the bag today, look at my thumb, a big bruise. I train on heavy bags twice a week consistently(can't affort to break the heavy bag!!). Last time was Sunday, everything was usual. This morning, after half a set, it was very painful already and I have to switch to more thrusting and less striking.
View attachment 27934

I did not change the way I hold the cane, it's the same cane, it even have foam covered handle. I did not take time off lately, so it's not because of my hand is out of shape. I never have problem even doing multiple sets at one time. Today, I have to stop after one set only as it was painful. I saw it later on and have to take a picture. It might not show that well, it's a pretty dark bruise!!!

I hope this is the sign I am hitting harder with the body motion!!! I did not even try to hit harder than usual....At least I did not intend to. Hopefully this is a good sign that I am doing it right.

It is strange, now the bruise spread:

Just one set of 7:30. It's not painful. We'll see, next time hitting the bag will be Sunday.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is strange, now the bruise spread:
View attachment 27942View attachment 27943

Just one set of 7:30. It's not painful. We'll see, next time hitting the bag will be Sunday.

Does the knuckle of your thumb normally stick out like that? Does your right hand look ike that? Looks like something is out of place. Sprained thumb?

Not sure if I would be hitting any bags if I had bruising on my thumb like that, even if it's just a bruise.

 

[lklawson]

Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.

You "disagree" with actual video proof, just like you "disagree" with actual court cases, merely because you don't like it and would really really like to believe something else? So the plan is to stick your fingers in your ears while chanting, "I can't hear you"???

OK. Let us know how that cognitive dissonance works out for you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like most boxing and even MMA people, head movement, foot work and parrying type of simple technique is the best option. Not any fancy moves.

You and I don't have the same definition for fancy. Up to this point, a lot of the things that you say are fancy aren't. Most of what you have been pointing out is either an advance technique or a technique you don't understand.

I used to use upward blacks all the time when sparring and that's when I relied on my Karate skill set. I wouldn't have any problems using them today. I can use the upward block to jam my forearm into a person's face, use it against an incoming punch., or use it to pin a punch.
You make the assumption that a technique has only one use / one application.

A lot of the techniques in Kata and Chinese forms will have multiple applications for the same technique.

Edit: For me rising blocks make more sense and are easier to work, when used as an offensive tool instead of a strictly defensive one. I don't ever remember me waiting for a punch just to use a rising block. All of my rising blocks have been used to clear the way. If my opponent doesn't punch then I use the force from raising my arm to smash my opponents face with my forearm or elbow depending on what end he's on. This impairs his vision and allows me the get in the punch that I usually throw when doing a rising block.

If you are just standing there waiting for a punch then the rising block isn't going to work with a lot of success. It's not fancy, you just have to use it correctly.