Naihanchi.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



That isn't waht he said. It had become something of an Oyata vs. Dillman thread.

It was never an "Oyata Vs Dillman thing" for me.

However, to me it was a trained, licensed professional in TCM Vs someone that has been exposed to (by whom I don't know) a load of nonsense and feels the need to further spread the same manure via the Internet.
Maybe when that same person goes to the Dr. and he tells them they have this or that illness they say "Dr. I think your full of it because I know this guy who isn't an MD but he read Gray's Anatomy and can spout off all this technical lingo that nobody understands and he said your wrong ............."

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.
Is it because I don't suffer Internet fools for very long?
Is it because I support my opinion with fact instead of "oh I just think so......I have no facts to support my opinion or actually training so you should believe me"?
Or maybe it's because if I see BS on the Internet I point it out so other people don't step in it.

Granted I am direct and to the point almost to the point of rudeness......... but not arrogant, ..............there is a difference.

Originally posted by arnisador


Discussing why the kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make them distinct would be most welcome. Could you elaborate? Simply asserting it isn't very enlightening, but I honestly would be every interested.

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.
I paid my dues...........if you REALLY want to know and be able to use what you learn...........you have to pay yours with hard work, effort and perseverance. There is no short cut, there is no other way.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.

Have you considered the possibility that you come across differently in a different medium? Assuming ill-will or confusion on the part of all others is convenient but doesn't lead to much self-examination. I think I'm a reasonable, level-headed person, and I find your posts arrogant. I believe you (and Yiliquan1, who is after all a friend of my friend Mr. Lehmann) that you're not that way in person. Perhaps part of it is how you express yourself in this medium?

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

Originally posted by arnisador


(Original Post)
Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?...............

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

I guess I have to ask you the same questions because I re-read this forum from page one and couldn't find anything from you that contributed greatly either. In regards to my TCM training don't believe me........I really don't care.


You threw out the original question and that was about it.
And to answer your question: "Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point?" They are only similar in foot work pattern and that is about it. The hand movements in all 3 kata aren't even similar.
As for my lack of contribution to this thread you might want to review the following. These were made before someone else took this thread off on a tangent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.





quote: Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.


Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

Is it clear that that's best? The written and spoken versions of a language usually distinct dialects as writing is, at the least, more formal, and also lacks body language and vocal intonation. A different style of communication might be appropriate for a different medium--it happens all the time.

I agree that you have specifically addressed the thread's subject as your post indicates. I was focused on the pressure points aspect.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

There are basically two forms of bunkai, the Ura and Omote.
One is the basic or obvious (not always) bunkai and the other is the more advanced.

I teach the basic versions first and the more advanced version later.........if I know them. Quite often I don't.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

I must agree with RyuShiKan, on this one, however I will say that once you come to understand where he is coming from, you will find he is only being direct and quite forward, with his beliefs.
He is not being arrogant!

Robert, I hope you don't mind me springing to your defense.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

I have known RyuShiKan for a little over a year and a half via the internet, and in person for only a month or two. The thing that most surprised me when we first met (and continues to amaze me) is how similar he and I are in a lot of ways...

Must be that Midwestern upbringing...

See, I am from Omaha, and he is from KC, and we tend to think a lot alike given we are "just down the road" from each other.

For those of you unfamiliar with us Midwesterners (and you can ID us easily because we are the ONLY ones that refer to our part of the country as the Midwest - everyone else calls it the Plains States or the Central region or some such nonsense), you will find after lengthy exposure that we are very hospitable people, friendly to the point of annoyance, and very, very blunt. We call it like we see it, we don't ask if you think it might rain when we walk outside and get drenched - common sense is something we like to feel we have an abundance of, with the emphasis on "common."

We don't endure fools and shiesters easily (plenty of snake oil salesmen found that out the hard way), and if we see a dirty deal going down we aren't afraid to call them out on the spot.

That having been said, arrogance is something we don't countenance easily either - that is one of the pretenses those "city folks" tend to have suitcases full of, and after working a while detassling corn, you tend to lose a lot of self-inflation and earn a lot of home-grown humility.

You will see that RyuShiKan often points out his background and experience as qualifications for his own point of view, moreso than to denigrate the opinions of others (though that may happen as a side effect of the comparison). He is also just as apt to point out that he still has lots to learn.

If folks feel they are being personally attacked, I am sure it wasn't the intention. Having dealt with him for a while, I suspect they would have no reason to doubt the real attack were it to present itself.

If they feel uncomfortable with what he has to say, they can do two things - a) not read what he writes, or b) examine their training objectively, not hang onto it with religious fervor for fear of finding fault with it, and try to go beyond it to something greater than all the methods combined.

Or they can continue to post here and be offended, I guess. Whatever.

I like choice "b" myself, and that is what I do when I compare my training previously to my training with RyuShiKan.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[arnisador]

Ah yes, I recognize it--the Iowa song from The Music Man! As a Hoosier (though a native New Yorker) I understand some of it.

I am reminded of another story about another medium: USENET. Here the rules of interaction were simple:

I. Thou shalt not offend.
II. Thou shalt not be easily offended.

It's worth working on both ends of this, I think.

 

[Captain Harlock]

I've been lurking for a while here and one thing continues to amaze me. For a 'Friendly' forum, there sure are a lot of hostile folks.

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

Perhaps that is the way you train sir, and perhaps you honestly do not care whose feelings or spirit you may hurt. Perhaps you are an expert at that which you profess, and a humble man to boot, or perhaps you are just an overbearing git. You style of posting implies the latter.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude? The majority of what you have posted can easily be found in any good reference work, but the personal side of it cannot. Why is it so hard for you to share something without taking a shot at someone else that doesn’t meet your high standards? Not all of us have had the option of training in Japan. While that is a wonderful thing, it does not justify the superior attitude you have displayed.

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

Good Day.

(to the mods, I am sorry my first post is a negative one. But this bloody git has me bloody well ticked off. My apologies)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This is an administrative warning...I've gotten enough complaints about a few individuals in this thread to really annoy me. (and yes, I know no one cares about that fact). This is not directed at any one individual, as there are a few in this thead I've gotten msgs about.

Here's the deal:

MartialTalk is a "Friendly" forum. That means check the attitudes at the door. I don't care if you are just 'blunt', 'intense', 'serious' , etc. If you can not do so, please leave. While I don't ask that you coddle the 'newbies' (as it was put), I do -require- you treat the other members with respect.

If that is too hard for anyone...please leave. Now.

The next person in here thats sporting a condencending, disrespectful or flat out rude attitude is going to find their account suspended. Member or Mod.

Everyone got it? Good.

Now, please continue to explore the various bits in here. I don't pretend to understand much of it, but it has been very informative.

Thank you.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Captain Harlock

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I think everyone present agrees...

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

An interesting story springs to mind in response to this...

When I first joined the Army, I was wide-eyed with awe and impressed by the images presented to me: stern faced drill sergeants, uber-killer infantry sergeants (I was in the infantry when I first joined up), snipers that seemed to melt out of the forest and melt right back in...

Then, after a while, I began to become more educated in the ways of the profession of arms. I learned more about why things were done, not just how, about the mentality behind training, operations, etc. I grew up.

Now, after 14 years of service, I have an entirely different perspective of the Army. While I love my Army dearly, and have dedicated the largest portion of my adult life to its service, I can see clearly now what I did not see before, and I have become jaded and cynical about what is in front of me. These 14 years of service have scarred my mindset, my family and my soul. I have lost friends and been rejected by family for my service. I see children given guns who have no business being out from behind mommy's apron just yet. I see veterans who have lost their drive and sit around, contributing little, waiting for the day they can file for retirement...

So if I were critical of my Army, would you call me a "self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line," or would you see that I am perhaps a person with enough experience to know better than that wide-eyed new private from 14 years ago?

How does this equate with martial arts?

If you were a senior member of a school/style/association that had a member who took it upon him/her self to go out and promote his own take on things, without the support or permission of the person in charge of said school/style/association, and whose personal take on things was erroneous at best (and false or fraudulent at worst), would you not feel a certain compelling drive to educate those who are young and ignorant of the pitfalls of martial training? Or would you be content to allow them to fall victim to frauds and charlatains, waiting until they had been suitably victimized before you offered your help?

In this instance, I do not refer to anything relating to RyuShiKan's background or organization, but actually my own. Our school had an instructor that began teaching things outside of our system and claiming it came from within our instruction; providing instruction in a manner that did little to develop the student, but instead intentionally hampered their development to insure ongoing tuition income. Should I sit back and allow those who may have been taken in by this person to continue on ignorant of the truth, or should I do what is right (whether they like me for it or not) and inform them of the real situation?

That is my take on how RyuShiKan and others here and elsewhere approach what they do. They are educated in the arts, they have experience within their respective style and with things outside of it, and when they come upon someone relatively new in MA who has been preyed upon by someone presenting sow's ears as silk purses, they feel an obligation to correct the errors they take as reality.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

No, in fact, RyuShiKan is very patient and explains at length the answers to any questions that are asked. He does so in a very casual and friendly manner. I train with him, and he has yet to be anything but calm and joking when confronted by my ineptitude.

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

As do yours, good "sir." Though you couch your comments in pleasantries and courtesy, the acid still eats its way through your words. You appear to be well read, and one capable of writing quite eloquently, but you do little to disguise your true intentions.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude?

I don't presume to speak for RyuShiKan, but from my own experience (16+ years of training, 11+ of teaching), when you are right, you are right, and after a while it becomes difficult to be tolerant of those who hang onto their own ignorance so religiously. There are those who were previous students of our system's rogue instructor who, when presented with the truth and the overwhelming evidence of their ignorance, instead followed said instructor rather than accept the fact that their efforts and money had been wasted. There are many in MA like that. I have yet to lose completely my ability to be patient with that kind of student, but I have little expectation for that patience to continue for many more years...

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

No, but they remain in ignorance, wide-eyed and open to manipulation by those who lie in wait for just such an opportunity to meander by. It was really easy as a young private to be highly motivated about all that I did, all that I was exposed to, until later when I found out the real reasons (or lack thereof) behind things. At that point it became harder to remain fluffy and cuddly about the things I had experienced, and in order to educate the young soldiers whose lives were being influenced and impacted by those things, sometimes I had to be firm to the point of being rude. But they learned. Or they didn't.

Sometimes when the light of day shines on things that have lain hidden for a long time, what is revealed is distasteful. But better to have those things revealed than to walk around believing a handful of dung is a bag of diamonds.

Good day to you.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

So, we gonna talk about this Naihanchi kata thingie or what?

 

[RyuShiKan]

I am always amazed at how things can be twisted around on the Internet, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
This actually happened to me the other day when someone posted a reply in jest to something I wrote and I thought they were being serious.
Thank goodness we got it straightened out because I thought that persons posts were interesting up until that unfortunate incident.

Another example of how things get twisted around is when I posted my TCM credentials to qualify my opinion. Some folks took it as a sign of arrogance when it was meant to simply relay where my point of view was coming from............a TCM trained professional, something that is rather rare in the "Kyusho world". It would seem some folks are not interested in that.

If I wanted to be arrogant I would have said something like "I am the best damn TCM person on the planet and you should kneel before me".
Even though secretly I wish it were true the facts remain that I am not. If I REALLY wanted to be arrogant I could have mentioned other things that I have done that are a lot more interesting than get a crummy TCM certification.
Having said that I would have thought my opinion might have been considered a little more deeply than it was. Instead it was "tactically" written off as "arrogance" on my behalf. So if simply stating a fact to provide background for my opinion is "arrogance" then guilty as charged. I sure would rather see more people support their ideas on these BB's with actual facts instead of hear say or gossip.

I say "tactical" because I have met people on these boards that I am sure wish I would F.O. and die because I have become a fly in the ointment to them by challenging what they have been lead to believe with fact not fantasy and therefore attack me personally rather than support their ideas/opinions with some sort of evidence.


As far as the 3 Naihanchi go..........there is Atemi, Kyusho and tuite in all of them...........and in all "classical kata" for that matter - (not the new stuff done to a boom box with lighted "numchucks" twirling from each orifice)
The only way you will ever find Atemi, Kyusho and tuite is by training...........not by sitting here trash talking me.

Naihanchi Shodan's creator is not known however the creator of Nidan and Sandan might have been Itosu.........the verdict is still out on that one. I personally don't know what to think on those 2. No matter, they are good kata that have excellent techniques within them.
As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?
Actually the question originally asked at the beginning of this thread is a rather moot one and I don't feel anyone can answer with authority.
Ambiguous questions like this tend to bread thread drifts anyway.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Capt. Crunch errr uh, Capt. Stubbing, err uh, Capt. Hook, Capt. Harlock,


I am sorry I can take your post seriously unless you sign your post with a "real" name maybe a little bio on yourself................I know it is not "required" on here but just as a common courtesy.
You I see I like to know who I am being insulted by...............I am kind of funny that.



Lesson one in how to spot a "Troll":

Their first post is often negative and abusive to a group or individual.


Lesson 2:

They more often than not do not supply a "Bio" or real name.


Lesson 3:

They NEVER include an e-mail address in their profile page for fear that their IP address could be tracked down and their real ID become known.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Naihanchi Shodan's creator is not known however the creator of Nidan and Sandan might have been Itosu.........the verdict is still out on that one.

I hadn't realized that the latter two kata were of such recent origin. That would help explain why they are separate--the originator of those kata might not have felt it appropriate to modify the original form that much.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The next person in here thats sporting a condencending, disrespectful or flat out rude attitude is going to find their account suspended. Member or Mod.

RyuShiKan is suspened until Aug 1. While his responce to 'Harlock' may be justified, there are other ways to handle it.

 

[alan libby]

"As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?"

Can anyone confirm that there is not already a single kata called Naihanchi Dai that does combine Shodan and Nidan...And what about Super Empi? I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they do exist (and who are we to say what "he" made? We were not there. If we were, there would not be all of this assuming and supposition. It is a pretty fair bet that he forgot more than any one of us has even learned.)
In Full Respect,
A.L.

 

[DKI Girl]

Hi bob....

We always teach several levels of bunkai for each technique. We teach basic control techniques and move up the ladder depending on the situation. I always teach my ladies in the class techniques that will work for them in a variety of situations.

Not matter what you train or how you train, you should always be prepared for the possibility of taking it up one more level to protect your family or yourself.

That's what we try to put out to our students to help them make the decisions on what level they need to function at.

dki girl

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

 

[DKI Girl]

I had heard rumors from other MA in my area about this, but I don't know if that is correct. I have seen the kata Super Empi and there are alot of similar techniques from the Naihanchi Kata's, but if you look at many kata you will see similar techniques.

dkigirl

Originally posted by alan libby

"As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?"

Can anyone confirm that there is not already a single kata called Naihanchi Dai that does combine Shodan and Nidan...And what about Super Empi? I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they do exist (and who are we to say what "he" made? We were not there. If we were, there would not be all of this assuming and supposition. It is a pretty fair bet that he forgot more than any one of us has even learned.)
In Full Respect,
A.L.

 

[alan libby]

hello

yes u r correct on that s. e. and other katas have same as moves but I believe that the s.e . and nai di were from the same mode . but i was not there so its hard to tell.
but i would sure have love to been there , as we our selves would have the true way
in full respect ---- al