Mystification in/of the martial arts

[Langenschwert]

Do you think it's prevalent? Have you encountered it in your own MA experience? Does it create problems for the MAs, or is it harmless?

There's nothing wrong with a little fantasy, and if that helps people get into the arts, I suppose that's OK. The problem is that sometimes the mystification gets into those who are supposed to be legitimate purveyors of the Arts. I recall some MA school's website somewhere saying that Samurai were noble, the European knights were ignoble, Samurai were skilled swordsmen, knights were untutored brutes who relied on strength, and so on down the line. What they said about other arts, I can't recall. I can't suppose it was complimentary.

However, it's not only Asian culture that gets mystified. In Japan, feudal Europe is somewhat idealized as well. We all find the foreign exotic to one degree or another. And there's nothing wrong with that. There are Kenjutsu students in the West, and there are German Longsword practicioners in Japan, likely as a result of that kind of fantasy. No biggie. Cultural exchange is a good thing. However, learning MA will not turn you into Richard the Lionheart, George Silver, Musashi, or Bruce Lee. Or Aragorn, if your fantasy melds with literature. As long as everyone's down with that, cool.

In the experience of those where I study, we did have an Asian martial arts practicioner come to our Longsword class claiming that he could defeat a swordman with a sweep kick, like you see in the movies. After many attempts, he never succeeded once, go fig. The geometry just isn't there. However, he still left believing in the technique, despite evidence to the contrary. And we had an SCA guy show up and stand there like a Provost or something, proudly surveying his domain, to all appearances. If anyone shows up to our WMA class expecting to be addressed "Lord Such and Such of the Earldom of Whatchamacallit", he's going to get laughed at. Fantasy has no place in the training hall, IMO. Not that I have anything against fantasy and stuff... I'm a gamer geek, after all. But I just don't mix the two.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd like to try to "back into" the conversation and bring up a point that bothers me more than the pathetic "master ninja I am really great but can't show you anything cause it would kill you" guy

Well I could respond with an amazing display of expert verbiage but it would likely drive all that read it mad so you will just have to take my word for it that it was great and would answer all questions and defeat all points to the contrary. :mst: :uhyeah:

All I have to say is that it has been my experience that the people that really know their stuff do not go around telling anyone about it or bragging to all at just how dangerous they are.

My Taiji Sifu tells no one and does not advertise and he is one of the most skilled Yang style practitioners I have ever come across. And he approaches taiji in a very matter of fact way. Train and get better.

My Sanda sifu tells virtually no one that he does Sanda and when I first meant him I could tell there was something about him that just said to me. The LAST thing I want to do is get in a fight with this guy. I later found out he had trained Sanda for many years but he does not say it is the best or it will make you invincible or ever-so dangerous. He just says it is a good way to keep in shape and he can defend himself if he has to.

My Xingyi Sifu does advertise, but then this is his source of income. He also does not tell you that Xingyi makes you invincible or a super fighter. As a matter of fact he is more likely to tell you that if you don't train and don't stand in Santi then don’t do Xingyi. If you train it hard you will be able to use it, but he also trains other styles so he is not trying to mystify anything.

But when I hear people telling me the superiority of there art and how deadly they are and how I would stand no chance against them, therefore they will not waste their time and do not wish to hurt me I generally think,
"yup, you're a fake" And the bragging and over advertising is there to either make up for a lack of skill or to draw in those that do not know better. And it is here where a lot of the mystification is produced and allowed to continue. Those that are trying to take advantage of those that do not know any better. And there are more of them than us.

 

[kidswarrior]

I'll play devils advocate for a second and bring up the idea that perhaps the mystification isn't always a completely bad thing. A great number of people seek out a place to train because of the very stories or movies that are only connected to the truth by the most tenuous of ways. Most of those people will train for a while, figure out either A)hey, those movies/stories were fiction B)No one can really do those things or be unbeatable so why bother or C)This is not the same thing that I had convinced myself was true but it still has a great worth and I think I'll follow this path for my own reasons.

Yes, the mystification of the MA has had terrible consequences but can also bring a great many people to have enough interest to seek out a qualified instructot. The responsibility then passes to the instructor to teach to the best of his/her ability without taking advantage of what many people may think an instructor is. IMHO, it boils down to being able to sift fact from fiction on the part of the individual practitioner and not taking advantage of those that can't really make the distinction on the part of the instructor.

I agree in part, Letch, but the people who have come to me with these 'cartoon' expectations (thanks, Sukerkin ) end up being a drag on the class until they finally admit (to themselves) that MA is mostly just hard work. So, yeah it can bring in students, but are they worth the effort, and the cost in progress to the other students?

Also (not referring to Letch's post, now, but several others), as a marketing tool, mystification (read: bad, even deliberately bad, history) is a disgrace.

Now, I do believe there are mystical elements to the arts, but in my personal experience they are more byproducts than something to be sought; more like pleasant surprises which are kind of rewards along the way for years of blood, sweat and tears.

 

[Bigshadow]

My point is, that kind of ******** is testable without a life or death situation, but if you're being blindsided by the "real world" mystification, you won't know until the knife slide in between your ribs - then it's too late.

Well said! I like how you tied it in!

 

[DArnold]

I'm afraid that we have a fundamental difference in basic character and values here. I believe that the truth is better than lies. Fantasy is a vital part of the human life because we understand the world through stories and metaphors. We read Green Eggs and Ham to children because there is a lesson there which they are not prepared to understand at an abstract level. We trust that in time they will develop to the point where they can see the reasons behind it and get used to the idea of trying new things because there is virtue in that quality. In the end it is reality that is important. If you try to have it any other way that way lies madness, abuse and dead students.

Since I'm in a storytelling mood here's a true one. One of my training brothers in Silat is very highly ranked in Kajukenbo. He's got black belts up the wazoo and has mastered the system while he still has the physicality to use his understanding. He used to teach the Kajukenbo knife defenses because he'd been told that they worked and out of respect for the traditions of the system. Personally, I thought they were crap when I learned them, and I did my very best to forget them upon leaving the style.

One day he got a call. One of his senior students had been with a group of friends. They were attacked by a larger group of people. He and another one of my bro's students played Horatio at the Bridge so the women could get to the safety of the car. He did one of the knife defenses exactly as he was taught. It was crisp. It was clean. It was fast. It was powerful. And he died from a stab under the arm.

If at this point you say something like "He must have done it wrong or it would have worked" or "Well our style's knife defenses are better" you and I will exchange some extremely unkind words.

My friend got another one of his friends who has some martial arts and a whole lot of OJT in applied violence. He tried all the knife counters and defenses his system has to offer. Not one of them worked. He got repeatedly stabbed, sliced and gutted even though he was being faithful to what he had been taught. And I dare say he had learned it as well as anything you or I have worked at.

He hasn't taught a single one of them since. He will not allow them to be taught in his school. He sought out a specialist to learn things that would give people a better shot at survival.

Faith is a wonderful thing. Most of us could do with more of it. But it can not be blind, senseless, uncritical faith in whatever crap a guy with fancy trappings and a good line gives you. It has to have a basis in what is true. Sometimes that's useful to get them to a certain level of development so that they can better understand or accept the truth. And if faith and truth ever collide truth must prevail or you're building your life on an edifice of lies.

How can you hope for enlightened students if you see nothing wrong with giving them falsehood?

Learning how to fight is one of the most fundamentally legitimate reasons for learning martial arts. As a teacher you don't want them to fight for the wrong reasons. So you have to be selective about whom you teach. And you have to encourage the hotheads and the potential bad ones to change or leave. But ultimately if they come and say "I want to learn to prevail in a fight" you only have a few choices if you have any sort of integrity. You can lie by telling them that that's what they'll learn and give them something else. You can tell the truth about what you do and why and let them decide if they're interested.

Personally, I've found that telling the truth is a better policy than being a liar. If nothing else it allows me to keep mirrors in the house and sleep at night. Besides, eventually people catch onto the lies. It does you no good. It does your organization, your teachers and your art no good. It makes the rest of us look bad. And it is an abuse of authority and trust of the worst sort. Bit by bit it lets in the big lies, the ones that lead to fraud, screwing students literally and figuratively, betrayal of your associates and, Kool Aid in the jungle and once again, dead students whose blood is on your hands.

Love comes from the heart. But love based on lies is a terrible thing for the victim. It's a twin to rape.

So tell me, if lying to those who trust you to tell the truth is not reprehensible, what is your personal standard of honor and integrity? I don't want to hear the dojo kun. I want to know from the heart what your limits are as a man and as a trusted teacher.

And who decides the truth?
Is it not up to each individual?
Or those that shout loudly about their style being the best?

I said nothing about lying to a student.
You read that into my post.
An individual must decide what they believe in.
Along the way there will always be pundents on both sides.

For every little story you give about what you think is bad technique (minuta) someone else can counter - so nothing is proved right or wrong.
Only a sad story about lifes inevitable journey.

It is your belief that keeps you training.
The journey is the point.
Not feeling superior because you can claim a "Silver Bullet".
There is a point in every juniors career where they feel the need to validate themselves by touting how much better their syle is, because they are scared that what they may be doing is wrong compared to someone else.

But many times drumhead justice is what destroys everything also. Blogging can be fun but not 1/100 as going out and throwing kicks and punches.

I'm sorry for you and your friend.
Many things are not as black and white as you wish them to be.

As you said, "How can you hope for enlightened students if you see nothing wrong with giving them falsehood?"

I do not go tell my 4 year old that Santa Clause is fake simply because I hold the truth to be dear. There is a place and time for everything in ones life.

It also sounds like you are looking for a guarantee on techniques (silver bullet) Just because he died neither makes what he learns good or bad.

Also, you may believe, "Learning how to fight is one of the most fundamentally legitimate reasons for learning martial arts."

It is a major part of being just a fighter...







but over time students learn that it is a very small part of being a martial artist.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think this all boils down to a, "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" mentality. Eastern philosophies can be quite enticing; however, I doubt many of those led bothered to fully understand westen culture before jumping ship.
Sean

 

[Cirdan]

Students of the Arts should not be spoonfed mysticism even if they are 4 year olds.

Learning how to apply the principles and techniques of your style is a huge part of being a martial artist. However it is a small part of being a human being. It seems that the fact few are willing to admit is that it is possible for a complete scumbag to be a great martial artist.

 

[Shaderon]

It's not just Martial Arts having the mystification treatment as has been pointed out, and it's not just mysticising the martial arts that's dangerous. One of my pet gripes is fairy tales, witches are continually portrayed as evil, warty, toad loving hags bent over cauldrons and eating children, but I know some lovely witches, the last one I met was a chef and one of the nicest people you would ever hope to meet. I have read amongst people I know on many forums that they consider witches evil, witchcraft isn't evil, it's not satanism, that's the propaganda of the churches through fairy tales. But innocent women have been burned and stoned from that propaganda.

Mystical reperentations of the MA's in the media is sometimes fun, sometimes dangerous, but it depends on whose experiencing it and what thier preconceptions are. If all they have ever witnessed is the mystical version of the MA, like with Witches and Ninjas, they are going to believe the propaganda.

Isn't it up to us to advertise and portray the REAL deal? Some people don't talk about their learning or teaching, they don't tell anyone except family, they don't even tell their friends. In my eyes, yes this is self protective from the making fun, the endless questions and the "I won't mess with you" comments, but it's advertising, that's one more person who can say "hey I know someone who does that and it's not all like that, that's just a fantasy version".

I can see the MA becoming more mainstream, it's happening. Ten years ago if I wanted to learn an MA I had to go into the city and choose from between 4-5 schools, now there's 2 classes in my local gym, (going on three) and 1-3 classes in each of the other 4 gyms I know around the area, apart from one which has none as they have no studios. There's some in the local schools as well.

When people have no reliable information about something, they will cling to whatever information they get, reliable or not, fairy tale or film. Information gained this way can however be easily thrown out once they have a true experience or know someone who has a true experience of the subject, unless they are a closed minded fool, these people we will never convert, but they die off with the Dodos eventually.

When people have enough good information, they are less likely to fall for the magasine article people, offering them immortality for £9.99 a month, of course some people will always want the easy way, but do we really want them training with us anyway?

There are a lot of good people out there who have no information other than the fairy tales and films to go from, people who would probably give it a go for self improvement and self defence reasons if they have the RIGHT information.

Come on people, let's advertise!

This is an excerpt from my classes leaflet, I think this is excellent.

"TaeKwon-Do will improve flexibility, strength, co-ordination and confidence. It's a great way to learn self defence and gives you the chance to meet new people, excercise and get fit whilst having fun and relieving stress."

I'm on leaflet drop duty this week, advertising.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's not just Martial Arts having the mystification treatment as has been pointed out, and it's not just mysticising the martial arts that's dangerous. One of my pet gripes is fairy tales, witches are continually portrayed as evil, warty, toad loving hags bent over cauldrons and eating children, but I know some lovely witches, the last one I met was a chef and one of the nicest people you would ever hope to meet. I have read amongst people I know on many forums that they consider witches evil, witchcraft isn't evil, it's not satanism, that's the propaganda of the churches through fairy tales. But innocent women have been burned and stoned from that propaganda.

Mystical reperentations of the MA's in the media is sometimes fun, sometimes dangerous, but it depends on whose experiencing it and what thier preconceptions are. If all they have ever witnessed is the mystical version of the MA, like with Witches and Ninjas, they are going to believe the propaganda.

Isn't it up to us to advertise and portray the REAL deal? Some people don't talk about their learning or teaching, they don't tell anyone except family, they don't even tell their friends. In my eyes, yes this is self protective from the making fun, the endless questions and the "I won't mess with you" comments, but it's advertising, that's one more person who can say "hey I know someone who does that and it's not all like that, that's just a fantasy version".

I can see the MA becoming more mainstream, it's happening. Ten years ago if I wanted to learn an MA I had to go into the city and choose from between 4-5 schools, now there's 2 classes in my local gym, (going on three) and 1-3 classes in each of the other 4 gyms I know around the area, apart from one which has none as they have no studios. There's some in the local schools as well.

When people have no reliable information about something, they will cling to whatever information they get, reliable or not, fairy tale or film. Information gained this way can however be easily thrown out once they have a true experience or know someone who has a true experience of the subject, unless they are a closed minded fool, these people we will never convert, but they die off with the Dodos eventually.

When people have enough good information, they are less likely to fall for the magasine article people, offering them immortality for £9.99 a month, of course some people will always want the easy way, but do we really want them training with us anyway?

There are a lot of good people out there who have no information other than the fairy tales and films to go from, people who would probably give it a go for self improvement and self defence reasons if they have the RIGHT information.

Come on people, let's advertise!

This is an excerpt from my classes leaflet, I think this is excellent.

"TaeKwon-Do will improve flexibility, strength, co-ordination and confidence. It's a great way to learn self defence and gives you the chance to meet new people, excercise and get fit whilst having fun and relieving stress."

I'm on leaflet drop duty this week, advertising.

The story of "Hansel (Hansel?)and Grettel" is based on true events and the witches did eat those abandoned children. What made them witches is the fact that they chose to eat over dying of starvation.
Sean

 

[Shaderon]

The story of "Hansel (Hansel?)and Grettel" is based on true events and the witches did eat those abandoned children. What made them witches is the fact that they chose to eat over dying of starvation.
Sean

The plane crash survivors in "Alive" eat each other too, and other people have turned cannibal but no one says "All this type of people are cannibals". My point is that people get a bad rep when no one gives them any good rep. I wasn't saying no witch has EVER eaten another human being, the same as I didn't say that what makes a Ninja is black pajamas and smoke bombs. What makes someone a Witch isn't their choice of what they eat, it's their choice of religion. Please don't get me started on that one, I'll go on forever, it's got nothing to do with MA and I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[tkd_jen]

Well I could respond with an amazing display of expert verbiage but it would likely drive all that read it mad so you will just have to take my word for it that it was great and would answer all questions and defeat all points to the contrary. :mst: :uhyeah:

All I have to say is that it has been my experience that the people that really know their stuff do not go around telling anyone about it or bragging to all at just how dangerous they are.

My Taiji Sifu tells no one and does not advertise and he is one of the most skilled Yang style practitioners I have ever come across. And he approaches taiji in a very matter of fact way. Train and get better.

My Sanda sifu tells virtually no one that he does Sanda and when I first meant him I could tell there was something about him that just said to me. The LAST thing I want to do is get in a fight with this guy. I later found out he had trained Sanda for many years but he does not say it is the best or it will make you invincible or ever-so dangerous. He just says it is a good way to keep in shape and he can defend himself if he has to.

My Xingyi Sifu does advertise, but then this is his source of income. He also does not tell you that Xingyi makes you invincible or a super fighter. As a matter of fact he is more likely to tell you that if you don't train and don't stand in Santi then don’t do Xingyi. If you train it hard you will be able to use it, but he also trains other styles so he is not trying to mystify anything.

But when I hear people telling me the superiority of there art and how deadly they are and how I would stand no chance against them, therefore they will not waste their time and do not wish to hurt me I generally think,
"yup, you're a fake" And the bragging and over advertising is there to either make up for a lack of skill or to draw in those that do not know better. And it is here where a lot of the mystification is produced and allowed to continue. Those that are trying to take advantage of those that do not know any better. And there are more of them than us.

I'm with you!! Nice post.

 

[kidswarrior]

But when I hear people telling me the superiority of there art and how deadly they are and how I would stand no chance against them, therefore they will not waste their time and do not wish to hurt me I generally think,
"yup, you're a fake" And the bragging and over advertising is there to either make up for a lack of skill or to draw in those that do not know better.

Yeah, there's been a parallel with vets at least since 'my' war: The one who talks about it most, proabably experienced it the least.

And it is here where a lot of the mystification is produced and allowed to continue. Those that are trying to take advantage of those that do not know any better. And there are more of them than us.

Yes, there are more of them than us--always have been, always will be. It seems self-promoters are tireless. But we keep fighting the good fight, and in the end, maybe we ourselves develop that certain something which your sifu has, that something that says, this person has 'it', speaks with the ring of truth, and can back it up. And it's enough, Brother.

 

[Blindside]

It is a major part of being just a fighter, but over time students learn that it is a very small part of being a martial artist

So you have a distinction between a "fighter" and a "martial artist." Quite frankly that sounds like a bit of mystification right there. Can you describe how you would differentiate between a good "fighter" and a good "martial artist."

Lamont

 

[larry]

mysticism is part of the lure. Fancy uniforms and ranks. mystical creatures of power. Symbols that are different from one's culture. Visual and emotional effects from seeing and hearing about talented fighter's achievements. If any fighting art was not effective, it would not be in existance. Many use the lure of this mysticism to lure students and as part of their power, when their own skill level is less than their acclaimed rank, and ego. In spite of this, there are those that are able to learn beyond the mysticism of the matial arts. For english speaking students, asian language of technique description, is also part of the mysticism. Just being natural and enthusiasticaly practicing one's art is the way........ One knows one's own level when touching the hands of a talented master.

 

[exile]

mysticism is part of the lure. Fancy uniforms and ranks. mystical creatures of power. Symbols that are different from one's culture. Visual and emotional effects from seeing and hearing about talented fighter's achievements. If any fighting art was not effective, it would not be in existance. Many use the lure of this mysticism to lure students and as part of their power, when their own skill level is less than their acclaimed rank, and ego. In spite of this, there are those that are able to learn beyond the mysticism of the matial arts. For english speaking students, asian language of technique description, is also part of the mysticism. Just being natural and enthusiasticaly practicing one's art is the way........ One knows one's own level when touching the hands of a talented master.

Larry, as I tried to stress in my original post, it's not mysticism per se that I'm talking about. I'm talking about mystification, the noun derived from the verb mystify, typically denoting the deliberate obscuring of the history and social functioning of some phenomenon in order to push a particular agenda of interest to the mystifier. The martial arts have to contend with

(i) the substitution of wishful thinking and heroic longing for the documented, often unpleasant or just plain banal historical record of a particular MA style;

(ii) the idealization and inflation of practical combat systems—originally developed to let their skilled practitioners prevail in a violent encounter—into activities whose exponents basically have to be the equal (or better!) of the knights of the Round Table in Malory's version of the Arthurian legends; and

(iii) the romanticization and idealization of many of the greatest exponents of classical martial arts who were at best brutally efficient fighters (Matsumura, Itosu, Oyama) and at worst aggressive, compulsive fighters who used their opponents as lab animals to test out new techniques or tactical doctrines they were experimenting with (Motobu, Kyan).

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not concerned with mysticism per se; mystics can be some of the most hard-headed people around, as Tellner and others have pointed out in numerous threads. What I'm concerned about in this thread is the abuse of the documented historical record—and we have a lot of documentation for at least certain phases in the history of certain MAs—in order to project our own yearnings and desires on the product of cultures in which those yearnings and desired would be viewed as utterly bizarre (this strange assumption that sometimes surfaces that an ethical filter has to be satisfied in order to qualify a practitioner of a systematic combat art/skill-set as a `martial artist', as though the latter were same exalted title that only `saintly' fighters qualify for, is a prime example). I specifically indicated that what was at issue was this kind of phenomenon—mystification is the generally used term for it; it occurs in economics, in politics and many other social domains—not the mysticism you seem to be speaking of, related to the word `mystic'. My reading of history is that mystifiers are much more likely to be cynics than mystics.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The plane crash survivors in "Alive" eat each other too, and other people have turned cannibal but no one says "All this type of people are cannibals". My point is that people get a bad rep when no one gives them any good rep. I wasn't saying no witch has EVER eaten another human being, the same as I didn't say that what makes a Ninja is black pajamas and smoke bombs. What makes someone a Witch isn't their choice of what they eat, it's their choice of religion. Please don't get me started on that one, I'll go on forever, it's got nothing to do with MA and I don't want to hijack the thread.

I would say it was based on Moral choices outside the norm, which does have to do with the martial arts.
Sean

 

[tkd_jen]

We had an international college student from Russia come to our gym a couple years ago. He said he wanted to train but in Russia everything was "so Underground I could go to jail if someone sees me train." He did some light sparring after class one night for maybe 2 minutes and said he had to quit because he past training was so elite, and he couldn't show it to anyone. That was so bizarre to me.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

So true so true. Anyone who knows even slightly how to use a knife won't let you know they have one until it's in you. Not to mention aggressors are usually aggressive for a reason. Quite often the reason is that they're good at it.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

As for mystification, Chuck Norris is ten feet tall, weighs two tons, breathes fire, can eat a hammer and take a shotgun blast standing. I want to learn his style. Bruce Lee spoke about guys who talk about the power of chi, that it can do this and that, but they have great big guts. I do feel that the ancient masters might have been better, simply because they had less science (at least, empirical) and more philosophy. No one is really sure what the human body is truly capable of. Speak loud enough for your limits and, sure enough, they'll be yours.