Mystification in/of the martial arts

[exile]

I've been thinking for a while about mystification---not mysticism!!--in the MAs. By mystification I mean the creation of imaginary versions of the MAs--- and martial artists---which have very little to do with documented history and practice, but rather with romanticized visions of Asian culture (past and present), the confusion of legend with history, and the use of Asian combat systems as screens for the projection of late 20th/early 21st century yearnings for a noble and heroic way of life very distant from the way most of us live these days. I'm curious to know how other MTers view this phenomenon. Do you think it's prevalent? Have you encountered it in your own MA experience? Does it create problems for the MAs, or is it harmless?

This is an issue which has come up on various other threads as a sideline of the discussion, but it seems to me worth airing out a bit on its own. I have my own views about all this, but I'm curious to know what others on the board think about it...

 

[Andrew Green]

yup, it exists, and is everywhere it seems.

In a sense I think the first UFC's where a response to it.

It's not unique to martial arts, Western history is full of romanticized heroes as well. Some real, some maybe sort of real, others made up, others we got no idea about. Arthur, Robin Hood, Richard the Lion Heart, William Wallace, Joan of Arc, etc. We do it too our histories heros as well.

I think what makes it dangerous is that in the martial arts realm people often forget that oral history is legend, and as much fiction as fact gets in. It is also often forgotten that fighters are what counts, not the style. I'm not about to go out and search for "Robin Hood's" style of archery because he was the best, Archery is archery. There might be slightly different styles, and they work for different people.

Or to take a more recent example boxing. Sugar Ray, Joe Louis, Muhammid Ali, Jack Fraiser, Mike Tyson and John L. Sullivan. All great boxers, all had different styles. But to start what is almost a cult like canon around one of there particular fighting styles would seem odd would it not?

But I think the problem isn't really even there, although it is part of it. If I started a boxing gym that followed Sullivans regime and methods because I viewed him as the best ever. We used his techniques, his training methods and everything... I'd get laughed at I imagine, but hey, might be fun anyways

Where things really get messy is when the myth is taken more seriously then reality. When people start believing that Jet Li movies are pretty accurate depictions of historical figures abilities. Then the myth has to be manipulated to avoid contradicting reality. Preservation of history, a noble goal, becomes a missuse of certain pieces of history to form what really becomes a cult. "real" training gets replaced by ritual and "spirituality", faith in the methods requires abandoning testing them and the martial arts class seems more like a faith healing event.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I've been thinking for a while about mystification---not mysticism!!--in the MAs. By mystification I mean the creation of imaginary versions of the MAs--- and martial artists---which have very little to do with documented history and practice, but rather with romanticized visions of Asian culture (past and present), the confusion of legend with history, and the use of Asian combat systems as screens for the projection of late 20th/early 21st century yearnings for a noble and heroic way of life very distant from the way most of us live these days. I'm curious to know how other MTers view this phenomenon. Do you think it's prevalent? Have you encountered it in your own MA experience? Does it create problems for the MAs, or is it harmless?

This is an issue which has come up on various other threads as a sideline of the discussion, but it seems to me worth airing out a bit on its own. I have my own views about all this, but I'm curious to know what others on the board think about it...

Yeah. Don't forget the trend to assign philosophical and mystical/mythological benefits/meanings to esoterically and culturally irrelevant objects and concepts for the benefit of directing "correct and proper thought and behavior". Whee. Let's all revere cultural accoutrements and practices that have no relevance to daily society. Then let's call playing tag with our feet sparring.

Oh well. Sheesh. Prolly going to get reamed for that one.

 

[LawDog]

During the 70's this mystification caused alot of problems within the martial arts community. During this time span many frauds began to surface within our martial arts community. They covered their lack of fighting ability by hiding behind an image of being a peace loving monk. These frauds would say that they wouldn't fight because their martial arts skill was lethal and did not want to cause any harm to anyone, they would only fight to protect the weak. Their skills and knowledge were so lethal that they would only practiced it in secret.
Many of these "Master" instructors would walk around in their dojo's wearing large straw hats, Chinese type of robes, many even had Tiger / Dragon combination tattoo's on the underside of their forearms.
The material that these "Masters" taught was usually very ineffective and this was very dangerous for the student. Most of their students thought that they could properly defend themselves.
It is my belief that this mystification is one of the direct causes that allowed these frauds to get away with what they did and still do.
Personally I do believe that the strong should help the weak.

 

[pstarr]

It's true - although I think some people project their own interpretation(s) of historical figures and stories into the mix...Certainly, there were, and still are, some truly remarkable (martial arts) people and many stories that are truly astounding (and legitimate) but we have to be careful about what is pure myth and what isn't...

 

[Sukerkin]

A very good question indeed, my friend.

For myself, I think that the mystification of martial arts has continued since the extreme's of the '70's but at a lower and more subtle pace.

The problem is that some of this mystification is being perpetrated by Hollywood and in such a slick fashion that people are taking their 'history' from the screen. That's not restricted to the MA's of course ... you'd be amazed at how may people's opinions of William Wallace have come from a single movie or believe that, in WWII, the Enigma machine was captured by an American crew .

Why this is such a problem is that, in todays mutli-media age, with humans being generally visually oriented when it comes to 'data' gathering, it is very hard to dent these wrongly skewed views using mere history and logic .

Within the martial arts, the biggest 'mystery' of all is, of course, the ninja. This is the one I've encountered most often amongst both those interested in learning a MA and the general public. More guff has been spouted about them than any other topic with the arts I reckon. I can well understand why those seeking to learn what has arived at today as ninjutsu choose to call it by another name.

I personally believe that the excessive mystification of the arts is fundamentally harmful, especially (sorry to harp on it, chaps) the Cult of the Ninja. Altho' those who know better may smile and nod at the stock-ninja image, a great many who know nothing about MA take that 'cartoon' to be true and it affects (should that be infects?) their opinions of all arts.

 

[exile]

You folks have been making some terrific points—each of your posts seems to me to get at an important part of the problem. Having launched the topic, I'd want to try to avoid imposing my own perspective (though those of you who've followed some of the backing and forthing in the KMA forum probably have pretty good idea of my hobbyhorses so far as TKD history goes, lol!) But I do think it might be useful to consider this whole problem as (in part) one instance of a general pattern in Western culture (maybe it happens elsewhere too, but we wouldn't be able to recognize it so easily). So for example, when Cervantes wrote Don Quixote, he was deliberately mocking (in a kind of compassionate way) what was already in his time a kind romantic cult of mediaeval chivalry that, as a fighting man (he had fought at the the battle of Lepanto) Cervantes knew to be an utterly absurd version of feudal fighting codes. The same thing happened again in 19th century England—just look at how the Romantic writers and later the Preraphaelites depicted mediaeval Britain; the whole circle around Oscar Wilde were up to their necks in it, and it provided the material for one of Gilbert and Sullivan's most wickedly funny operettas, Patience—a textbook example of how to skewer trendy pretentiousness, aimed at Wilde's `transcendental' followers who dressed up in flowing robes and neck torques and imagined themselves to be recreating Camelot or Avalon or wherever. Bunthorne, G&S's stand-in for Wilde, has the following lines at one point:

If you're anxious for to shine in the high Aesthetic line as a man of culture rare,
You must get up all the germs of the Transcendental terms and plant them everywhere,
You must lie among the daisies and discourse in novel phrases of your complicated state of mind,
The meaning doesn't matter if it's only idle chatter of a transcendental kind.

I don't know how many discussions of the martial arts I've read which degenerated into koan-babble in the space of time it takes to drain two pints, but it's been a lot, and everything that Bunthorne says about his fake mediaevalism (which as he says is all `affectation/Born of a morbid love of admiration') holds for these discussions as well. I can imagine the shades of Musashi Miyamoto, Anko Itosu and Mas Oyama sitting in whatever lounge in paradise is reserved for the greatest martial artists of all time, listening to echoes from below of `idle chatter' of that sort, and laughing their heads off.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Part of the problem stems from a lot of written verbal Chinese MA history that tells you that many of the masters of given arts where amazing fighters and all undefeated. Some are true, many a sales pitches.

If you believe that all of the masters in China were undefeated then whom were they fighting? The answer would have to be no one or untrained individuals that were easy to beat.

Generally it is either no one or they are simply not telling you about the times they lost. However for one to open a school in old China meant you pretty much had to take on all comers for a given period of time and if you beat them all you could open a school. So in that case you could say you were undefeated. You just omitted the fact that it was only a period of a few months that you fought. And there are still others that were really undefeated, but it certainly is not all.

Also to be truthful in a country the size of China it would more likely be in reality that they were undefeated for say a year and in a specific area of China. It is not likely in old China that a Master from the South would venture north to pick fights or vise versa... that is a good way to get defeated.

 

[jks9199]

Others have kind of addressed this.

Look at the stories of the Wild West, or the American Frontier before them. Look at the legends of King Arthur and the Middle Ages, or Robin Hood. Go even further back, and look at stories like Hercules/Heracles, or the Minoan Minataur. Shoot -- just listen to some of the stories of the early days of martial arts here in the US! As a people, we seem to hunger for heroic/larger than life stories, and if we can't find them "naturally", we make them up. (We're seeing this in accounts of the birth of various gangs and rappers, as well, today!)

Throw in some very different, very hard to understand cultural differences, and you've got a recipe for overblown mystification. Especially if you add some people with less reliable memories, or accounts being repeated third or fourth hand. ("Eyewitnesses" are notoriously unreliable.)

One of my instructors has a knack for story telling. He never does it maliciously or with an intent to decieve. In fact, it's usually to the "benefit" of the subject... We attended a mutual friend's wedding. As is common, there's a gap between the start of the reception and the end of the wedding. I was waiting in the bar outside the dining room reserved for the wedding with one of the bride's friends. We were chatting, and she bought me a drink (soda) as we waited. Well... by the time my instructor had told the story, I had a line of women waiting to buy me drinks! Throw a few people hearing the story, and inflating it a little themselves... and suddenly I was some sort of Don Juan with women falling at my feet! I barely recognized the account when it wormed it's way back to me some time later.

Or think about "war stories"... We've all told them. And, without evil intent, we've all exagerated or enhanced them a bit.

But there's also another point to these stories. While they may answer a need -- they also serve a purpose. They often highlight attributes or characteristics that we admire. I believe Yogi Berra once said something like "I never said half the things I said!"

 

[theletch1]

I'll play devils advocate for a second and bring up the idea that perhaps the mystification isn't always a completely bad thing. A great number of people seek out a place to train because of the very stories or movies that are only connected to the truth by the most tenuous of ways. Most of those people will train for a while, figure out either A)hey, those movies/stories were fiction B)No one can really do those things or be unbeatable so why bother or C)This is not the same thing that I had convinced myself was true but it still has a great worth and I think I'll follow this path for my own reasons.

Yes, the mystification of the MA has had terrible consequences but can also bring a great many people to have enough interest to seek out a qualified instructot. The responsibility then passes to the instructor to teach to the best of his/her ability without taking advantage of what many people may think an instructor is. IMHO, it boils down to being able to sift fact from fiction on the part of the individual practitioner and not taking advantage of those that can't really make the distinction on the part of the instructor.

 

[tellner]

Be eloquent in praise of the very dull old days which have long since passed away,​

And convince ’em, if you can, that the reign of good Queen Anne was Culture’s palmiest day.​

Of course you will pooh-pooh whatever’s fresh and new, and declare it’s crude and mean,​

For Art stopped short in the cultivated court of the Empress Josephine.​

And ev’ryone will say,
As you walk your mystic way,​

“If that’s not good enough for him which is good enough for me,​

Why, what a very cultivated kind of youth this kind of youth must be!”

Ah yes. Things like that are why Sullivan was knighted long before Gilbert. Maybe W.S. Gilbert is the Secret Ascended Curmudgeon It's good to know that there are people out there who still like G&S. It's aged better than most comedy.

letch, it's a good try, but I just don't buy it. As my teacher's teacher said "The truth is hard enough. Don't give them ********." A few people will start off for the wrong reasons and end up getting it. Far more will find charlatans and egomaniacs who will cater to their fantasies. It will take the bouncing of quite a few reality checks to cure it, and that will make most of the gullible quit when their illusions are shattered. It devalues truth. And it damages those who are trying to do an honest job of presenting good material as well as driving off the ones who are looking for something real, particularly those who may not know their roundkick from roundworm but can smell cowflop when they step in it.[/LEFT]

 

[DArnold]

At what point has the BLOG society become the curmudgeon?

Sometimes it's what you belive in that counts
it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong

If it was not for the mysticism and the promis of achieving more than what we are, then most of us would not even be doing martial arts.

I remember when "The Karate Kid" came out.
It was a bad time for the martial arts as many students came in wanting to learn how to beat people up.
But hopefully some where shown enlightment.

Love comes from the heart and not the brain.

 

[tellner]

At what point has the BLOG society become the curmudgeon?

Sometimes it's what you belive in that counts
it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong

If it was not for the mysticism and the promis of achieving more than what we are, then most of us would not even be doing martial arts.

I'm afraid that we have a fundamental difference in basic character and values here. I believe that the truth is better than lies. Fantasy is a vital part of the human life because we understand the world through stories and metaphors. We read Green Eggs and Ham to children because there is a lesson there which they are not prepared to understand at an abstract level. We trust that in time they will develop to the point where they can see the reasons behind it and get used to the idea of trying new things because there is virtue in that quality. In the end it is reality that is important. If you try to have it any other way that way lies madness, abuse and dead students.

Since I'm in a storytelling mood here's a true one. One of my training brothers in Silat is very highly ranked in Kajukenbo. He's got black belts up the wazoo and has mastered the system while he still has the physicality to use his understanding. He used to teach the Kajukenbo knife defenses because he'd been told that they worked and out of respect for the traditions of the system. Personally, I thought they were crap when I learned them, and I did my very best to forget them upon leaving the style.

One day he got a call. One of his senior students had been with a group of friends. They were attacked by a larger group of people. He and another one of my bro's students played Horatio at the Bridge so the women could get to the safety of the car. He did one of the knife defenses exactly as he was taught. It was crisp. It was clean. It was fast. It was powerful. And he died from a stab under the arm.

If at this point you say something like "He must have done it wrong or it would have worked" or "Well our style's knife defenses are better" you and I will exchange some extremely unkind words.

My friend got another one of his friends who has some martial arts and a whole lot of OJT in applied violence. He tried all the knife counters and defenses his system has to offer. Not one of them worked. He got repeatedly stabbed, sliced and gutted even though he was being faithful to what he had been taught. And I dare say he had learned it as well as anything you or I have worked at.

He hasn't taught a single one of them since. He will not allow them to be taught in his school. He sought out a specialist to learn things that would give people a better shot at survival.

Faith is a wonderful thing. Most of us could do with more of it. But it can not be blind, senseless, uncritical faith in whatever crap a guy with fancy trappings and a good line gives you. It has to have a basis in what is true. Sometimes that's useful to get them to a certain level of development so that they can better understand or accept the truth. And if faith and truth ever collide truth must prevail or you're building your life on an edifice of lies.

I remember when "The Karate Kid" came out.
It was a bad time for the martial arts as many students came in wanting to learn how to beat people up.
But hopefully some where shown enlightment.

Love comes from the heart and not the brain.

How can you hope for enlightened students if you see nothing wrong with giving them falsehood?

Learning how to fight is one of the most fundamentally legitimate reasons for learning martial arts. As a teacher you don't want them to fight for the wrong reasons. So you have to be selective about whom you teach. And you have to encourage the hotheads and the potential bad ones to change or leave. But ultimately if they come and say "I want to learn to prevail in a fight" you only have a few choices if you have any sort of integrity. You can lie by telling them that that's what they'll learn and give them something else. You can tell the truth about what you do and why and let them decide if they're interested.

Personally, I've found that telling the truth is a better policy than being a liar. If nothing else it allows me to keep mirrors in the house and sleep at night. Besides, eventually people catch onto the lies. It does you no good. It does your organization, your teachers and your art no good. It makes the rest of us look bad. And it is an abuse of authority and trust of the worst sort. Bit by bit it lets in the big lies, the ones that lead to fraud, screwing students literally and figuratively, betrayal of your associates and, Kool Aid in the jungle and once again, dead students whose blood is on your hands.

Love comes from the heart. But love based on lies is a terrible thing for the victim. It's a twin to rape.

So tell me, if lying to those who trust you to tell the truth is not reprehensible, what is your personal standard of honor and integrity? I don't want to hear the dojo kun. I want to know from the heart what your limits are as a man and as a trusted teacher.

 

[tellner]

The original correspondent made a careful distinction between mysticism and mystification. Mystification is horseshit and splinters, the subject of this thread. Mysticism is a set of spiritual technologies and traditions. I can't claim to be a very good student of it, the Shaykh and Rabbi must both despair at times. But I can tell you one thing about the mystics the world over. The point of their practice, their austerities, their devotion is to wake up, get rid of their illusions, delusions and blindness the better to perceive and get close to the Truth. That is precisely the opposite of "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe."

 

[exile]

The original correspondent made a careful distinction between mysticism and mystification. Mystification is horseshit and splinters, the subject of this thread. Mysticism is a set of spiritual technologies and traditions. I can't claim to be a very good student of it, the Shaykh and Rabbi must both despair at times. But I can tell you one thing about the mystics the world over. The point of their practice, their austerities, their devotion is to wake up, get rid of their illusions, delusions and blindness the better to perceive and get close to the Truth. That is precisely the opposite of "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe."

You've said it better than I could have, Todd (it was just because I was concerned about this sort of confusion arising that I made a point of stressing the distinction, even at the risk of maybe seeming condescending). Mystics, from what I've read of them, tend to be ruthlessly honest and demanding of honesty—just as you say.

 

[Kacey]

I'm afraid that we have a fundamental difference in basic character and values here. I believe that the truth is better than lies.

------------

How can you hope for enlightened students if you see nothing wrong with giving them falsehood?

I'm sorry... I missed the part where he said he told lies. There is a difference between providing the promise of being more than you are - which is what kept me in TKD from the beginning - and telling lies. Do I believe that TKD will protect me from every possible scenario? No - or I wouldn't practice avoidance.

I'm sorry about your friend's death, and I understand why your other friend doesn't teach those techniques - but that doesn't mean that all students start a MA training for the express purpose of learning to fight, any more than it means that every technique taught anywhere by anyone is going to be effective.

Learning how to fight is one of the most fundamentally legitimate reasons for learning martial arts.

I started TKD because my then-boyfriend dragged me into it - I stayed, because I learned that I could do things that I would previously have considered too hard, and never would have tried otherwise. I stayed because I enjoyed the learning for the sake of learning and improving myself. Do you consider that a "fundamentally legitimate reason" or not? And do you understand that while many students do, indeed, begin MA training for "fundamentally legitimate reasons", many do not, such as those who wish to emulate the Kobra Kai in The Karate Kid - a movie I greatly enjoy, but which nonetheless did a great deal of damage to the perception of martial arts in general, because the Kobra Kai is what a lot more new students wanted to emulate than Daniel - and even those who wanted to be Daniel thought it would be as easy, and as quick, as it looked in the movie.

As a teacher you don't want them to fight for the wrong reasons. So you have to be selective about whom you teach. And you have to encourage the hotheads and the potential bad ones to change or leave.

I have several students now, and had others in the past, who have had trouble with anger management or other forms of emotional control - and every single one of them has told me, at one point or another, that TKD taught them the discipline to help them with their particular problem(s) - including one young man who finally, 10 years after being diagnosed with juvenile diabetes, got his diabetes under his complete control, and was finally cleared by his doctor to get his driver's license - at nearly 19. Not an emotional problem, I realize - but representative of the type of student many instructors won't take, because his diabetes required extra time, knowledge, and awareness on my part, that many instructors wouldn't provide. I know quite a few instructors who would have refused many of these students, because they were the "hotheads and potential bad ones", and they needed a lot more work - but they were, one and all, worthy of instruction.

So tell me, if lying to those who trust you to tell the truth is not reprehensible, what is your personal standard of honor and integrity? I don't want to hear the dojo kun. I want to know from the heart what your limits are as a man and as a trusted teacher.

I should let Mr. Arnold answer for himself - as I know full well that he is capable of doing so, as he has been my sahbum for the past 20 years. However, I know from experience that his primary concern is for the welfare of his students, and that the only people who come before his students are his family. He has never lied to me, or to anyone else that I am aware of, and he has demonstrated a personal integrity that I greatly admire. He expects the best from each person he teaches, and does his best to help that person attain their personal best.

So what is the purpose of mystification in MA? Sometimes nothing. Sometimes it is necessary to get a student started, so s/he can learn what is not visible on the surface of the MA. Should it continue past that point? No, I don't think so - but like anything else, mystification has its place, as long as it is used appropriately, and the truth is taught once it brings a student to the school. What does The Karate Kid have to do with it? It was based on the mystification of the martial arts - from multiple perspectives, as described above - and it brought quite a few students in to martial arts; however, it brought them under false pretenses, and that kind of mystification I think we can do without.

 

[tellner]

Where did he say so? Try the part about it not being important what you believe only that you believe. Then go a couple lines down. It's fine to lead on the gullible in the hopes that a few might become "enlightened". The only defense you can make is that it's dishonesty in the service of a higher cause. But that's kind of self-defeating. And it's a pretty thin reed upon which to hang your integrity.

 

[Kacey]

At what point has the BLOG society become the curmudgeon?

Sometimes it's what you belive in that counts
it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong

If it was not for the mysticism and the promis of achieving more than what we are, then most of us would not even be doing martial arts.

I remember when "The Karate Kid" came out.
It was a bad time for the martial arts as many students came in wanting to learn how to beat people up.
But hopefully some where shown enlightment.

Love comes from the heart and not the brain.

Where did he say so? Try the part about it not being important what you believe only that you believe. Then go a couple lines down. It's fine to lead on the gullible in the hopes that a few might become "enlightened". The only defense you can make is that it's dishonesty in the service of a higher cause. But that's kind of self-defeating. And it's a pretty thin reed upon which to hang your integrity.

Hmm... I believe that some beliefs have no "correct" answer, no "absolutes"; some examples, perhaps:

Believe you can be more than you are.
Believe there is a God/higher power/life force/whatever you want to call it.
Believe you can change the world... or that you can't.
Believe that all the ills in your life are someone else's fault.
Believe that only you are right, and all who disagree with you are wrong.

Any one of these could be true; any one could be a lie. All of them are beliefs, and the beliefs a person holds are the key to understanding the person; they are not "right or wrong"; they simply are. To me, this implies that one must take a person from wherever the person begins, and move on from there - that is not promulgating a lie; it is accepting reality.

Your friend was taught that a certain technique worked; sadly for him, and those who cared about him, this was untrue. You are, understandably, bitter about this. That does not mean, however, that anyone who believes that what they do is effective is lying, any more than it means that anyone who believes that what they do is effective is 100% true. Nor do I see anything in the quote post that states that; I see a realistic appraisal of human beings - that many people start training in martial arts to beat people up, and find out after they start that that is not the real purpose of martial arts.

Many people start training in a martial art to learn self-defense; many others start for other reasons, including, among others, the "mystique" that grown up around many martial arts, and which intriques so much they begin training, at which point, they (should) learn that that mystique does not exist - rather, that the mystique that has grown up around martial arts and martial artists, like that around athletes of many varieties, is based on making a difficult skill look easy through long-term and dedicated practice that many people do not have the discipline to engage in, so they watch, and sigh, and say "it looks so easy when you do it - I never could" - until they finally decide that perhaps they could learn it too - the way others learn to figure skate, or rock climb, or any other difficult physical skill that requires discipline and extended practice to gain skill. Some people are born athletes, true - but many more become "natural" athletes through years of training and practice, the true "mystique" of any athletic endeavour, and many non-athletic endeavours as well.

 

[tradrockrat]

well well....


This is a sensitive subject for me and I'll try to show you why without creating a post that belongs in the horor section. There is a long and thorough thread in there about the master of my system if you want to see, but it doesn't belong here so I'll try to stick to the point - mystification.

I'd like to try to "back into" the conversation and bring up a point that bothers me more than the pathetic "master ninja I am really great but can't show you anything cause it would kill you" guy

It's the "Most martial arts are ******** but I have the real deal that will work in combat everytime guy" This guy will tell you all about his combat experience, his life and death struggles, and his "street cred" to get you in the dojo. This guy scares me more than anyone else because he is doing a sort of reverse sell to the credulous - forget long years of training and the spirituality of MA - here's how you kill someone.

The problem is that his technique and skills are crap, and they are totally untested. This mans (womans) students are going to die if they get into a fight.

And the really scary thing is that there are guys out there who DO have the skills and CAN train you well, but to the uninitiated there is no difference between the two - they have no way of telling the truth from the lie cause they don't know what to look for.

I personally feel that with todays sophisticated knowledge of MA in general if you fall for a teacher who sells you invisibility and no touch knockouts you deserve what you get, but I am genuinely fearful for the student who is serious about learning but gets in with the charlatain tough guy.


True story that is only barely related to my post:

One day my instructor was teaching his self defense class at the college he works at. A man came in asking to be given credit by exam. My instructor told him OK and asked him to show some kicks and punches against a pad. The guy said - with a straight face - "I can only do my techniques in kata form because I would break the bones of whoever held the bag."

Well my instructor then offered to let him kick the wall pads. Again he declined saying he would break the cinderblocks.

My instructor then pulled out his wallet, layed it on the table and said that he would pay every penny of damage done to the walls and then told this guy he had one minute to show the kicks or he was going to have to leave. The guy left without a word.

True story.

My point is, that kind of ******** is testable without a life or death situation, but if you're being blindsided by the "real world" mystification, you won't know until the knife slide in between your ribs - then it's too late.

 

[exile]

My point is, that kind of ******** is testable without a life or death situation, but if you're being blindsided by the "real world" mystification, you won't know until the knife slide in between your ribs - then it's too late.

Very interesting take on this, tradrockrat... you're right, this is the flip side of the inscrutable koan-master distortion: the `Fear No Man! I'll Teach You Techs So Deadly Even Spec Ops Aren't Allowed To See Them!' Black Belt double-page ads in which Lieutenant X or Col. Epsilon, former Rangers H2H/CQ/H20 instructor, will get you up to speed in one1-vs.-50-bikers combat skills, in three weeks, 15 minutes a day. Full refund guaranteed if you wind up getting killed by the 50 bikers...

That is definitely what I would call mystification as well—the deliberate distortion of reality playing on clichés of perception, in this case the cliché that there's some hidden secret to combat skill that no one has ever been able to figure out except [fill in combat guru here]. It's just another version of the standard hermit monk, except that here we have someone in the military who has discovered combat techs you've never seen before and cannot imagine. Skiing magazines, powerlifting magazine, probably knitting magazines do the same thing... there's some simple, 100% effective body of knowledge that is (i) being hidden from you which you need to pay them to tell you, but which (ii) at the same time is so easy to learn and apply that it's virtually effortless. And apparently the contradiction between (i) and (ii)—this stuff is to be revealed only to the Rangers I used to teach and to those who shell out a couple of hundred bucks, and otherwise you'll never figure it out, but it's so simple you hardly have to do anything to learn it, train it and use it—goes unnoticed, because these guys have been pushing the same line of crap for decades, if I remember the first issues of BB I ever looked at, way before I got into MAs for real and was just wondering what they were all about.

The kind of guy you're talking about is the 3D version of that martial arts mag ad scam, and another version of the Pat Morita archtype. I didn't dislike The Karate Kid, understand; I though it was a sweet movie... but you know what I mean by that. Mr. Miyagi and Mr. Tough are just two different faces of the same reality distortion.