My Top Five

[MAist25]

@ oftheherd

I am simply basing my answer from what I have personally experienced. As for Hapkido, maybe dis-unity was not the best phrase of choice on my part as every other art I listed also has the same thing. However, I think Hapkido, and I have had many other Hapkido practitioners agree with me, is an art that has many problems with martial arts politics. This is an art that cant even agree on who the founder was... There are so many kwans of Hapkido and so many different organizations/federations/associations, etc... I have experienced great Hapkido and terrible Hapkido. I have experienced frauds telling me that they were teaching Hapkido, meanwhile they were not. I will be absolutely honest with you that one of the worst displays of martial arts I have ever seen has come from a so-called Hapkido teacher, but at the same time one of the most amazing displays of martial arts has also come from a Hapkido teacher. It is a very hit or miss art but like I said earlier, if you find a good school then you are going to be learning some very good stuff.

 

[Steve]

If this is just a thread about martial arts I like, I guess it would look like this:

1: BJJ (duh). This is the only art I'm really interested in training.

2: MMA - A lot of guys I train with also train for MMA competition and I really enjoy watching them do their thing.

3: FMA - Kali/Escrima/Arnis

4: Kendo/Iaido/Japanese sword fighting

5: Fencing/Western sword fighting

 

[oftheherd1]

@ oftheherd

I am simply basing my answer from what I have personally experienced. As for Hapkido, maybe dis-unity was not the best phrase of choice on my part as every other art I listed also has the same thing. However, I think Hapkido, and I have had many other Hapkido practitioners agree with me, is an art that has many problems with martial arts politics. This is an art that cant even agree on who the founder was... There are so many kwans of Hapkido and so many different organizations/federations/associations, etc... I have experienced great Hapkido and terrible Hapkido. I have experienced frauds telling me that they were teaching Hapkido, meanwhile they were not. I will be absolutely honest with you that one of the worst displays of martial arts I have ever seen has come from a so-called Hapkido teacher, but at the same time one of the most amazing displays of martial arts has also come from a Hapkido teacher. It is a very hit or miss art but like I said earlier, if you find a good school then you are going to be learning some very good stuff.

I know there are a lot of Kwans, somewhere between 15 and 20 I guess. As to the scism between the two large Hapkido organizations, I really don't know what to say. I was not even aware of it until I came to MT. I haven't been active in Hapkido, or any other MA for 12-15 years, due to some health issues that cropped up back to back. I am trying to get back in to shape now. Since my GM moved away from this area about that long ago, I didn't meet him often, and when we did get together, Hapkido history or scisms weren't usually an object of conversation. I can only guess there have been so politics involved just like in TKD some years back.

There are frauds in many MA. That is sad, because a lot of students will be turned away from MA without good reason. I always say there is no bad martial art, only bad teachers.

As to agreeing who the founder was, I go with what I said already, which I got from my GM. I think some Korean GM get worried they and their art, and Hapkido in particular, won't be taken seriously if it can't be shown to be one or two thousand years old. That is difficult to prove with any modern MA. Martial arts have indeed been around a long time, but who knows the emphasis or name in ancient times? Dr. Kimm is a respected GM for most people, and indeed has at least one book I personally know of that shows a lot of good techniques. But I am sorry, his "history" of Hapkido is quite fanciful.

 

[Cyriacus]

EDIT: BTW, I meant to ask about your comment on hook kicks. A hook kick to me is a side kick that is kicked a little off angle and at the last moment the leg is straightened and moved rearwards. It can be used to the head, but is best to the abdomen, as that is quicker. The first time I saw it some 45 years ago, it was used by Jhoon Goo Rhee. We were stunned as we had never seen such and thing and didn't know quite how he did it. Of course, he was very fast. He doubled a student over with it as the student had never seen that kick either, and expected it to sail past him. It didn't.

Did you find it less effective as it is so often expected, or was your opponent just faster on the defense? Sorry if that sounds like a silly question, but I don't do TKD, and haven't for many years. More importantly, I don't watch competitions.

Good question - It is, indeed, what you described. The issue i see with it is that if the opponent has any kind of Guarding Position, at best, it can be aimed at their Arms or Hip. But even that aside, if it is blocked, it is hard to retain your balance, and puts you in a bad place. If ever you have another person to try it with, just assume a good guarding stance, have them launch in anywere, and as it comes in, either guard up, and move to the side; Or palm the back of the lower leg to block it. Either way.

PS: Conversations like this, is exactly why i joined MartialTalk

 

[andyjeffries]

A hook kick to me is a side kick that is kicked a little off angle and at the last moment the leg is straightened and moved rearwards. It can be used to the head, but is best to the abdomen, as that is quicker.

I can't understand from a physics point of view how this would be effective. All the power in a hook kick comes from the raw pulling power of the hamstring and butt, there's very little in the way of momentum or kinetic linking. That often has enough power for a head shot to ring someone's bell, but to the body I can imagine it would do very little (given the power to resist the kick with the arms already in place). Particularly as you state "a little off angle", the smaller it's off angle the harder it is to see but the less power it has. Also, it probably doesn't help that I do Kukki-Taekwondo and can't imagine it would do a lot through the hogu.

 

[oftheherd1]

Good question - It is, indeed, what you described. The issue i see with it is that if the opponent has any kind of Guarding Position, at best, it can be aimed at their Arms or Hip. But even that aside, if it is blocked, it is hard to retain your balance, and puts you in a bad place. If ever you have another person to try it with, just assume a good guarding stance, have them launch in anywere, and as it comes in, either guard up, and move to the side; Or palm the back of the lower leg to block it. Either way.

PS: Conversations like this, is exactly why i joined MartialTalk

Well, I see your point, especially on balance, not only when blocked, but on striking, if you are putting power into it. It must be done very well. I think it best used to the abdomen or the upper inner thigh to the pressure point there. It can also be used in a combo towards the ankle to slow an opponent, then an intentional miss to the face (EDIT: or a kick there if the opponent doesn't move back) and hook back. Of course, that is not the traditional hook kick. Personally, I wouldn't recommend a palm to the back of the leg, but a sudo strike to the calf. In Hapkido we have such a kick defense where we move in and to the side, simultaneously slip the non-sudo hand under the leg, trapping the instep, as we trap the heel with the sudo striking hand, and twist the leg by pulling down on the instep and pushing up on the heel. It will dislocate the knee, hip, or both, and put the opponent on the ground. A heel down kick to the backbone or head should finish the job.

 

[oftheherd1]

I can't understand from a physics point of view how this would be effective. All the power in a hook kick comes from the raw pulling power of the hamstring and butt, there's very little in the way of momentum or kinetic linking. That often has enough power for a head shot to ring someone's bell, but to the body I can imagine it would do very little (given the power to resist the kick with the arms already in place). Particularly as you state "a little off angle", the smaller it's off angle the harder it is to see but the less power it has. Also, it probably doesn't help that I do Kukki-Taekwondo and can't imagine it would do a lot through the hogu.

If you get no points in sparring for connecting a kick to the abdomen then I guess it wouldn't be useful. As to power, that has a lot to do with the individual practitioner. But remember in Hapkido we often think and move with circles in mind. The heel is considered to move in a arc, with its greatest power coming as it connects. There is no stopping and starting again. Ki is needed also.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, I see your point, especially on balance, not only when blocked, but on striking, if you are putting power into it. It must be done very well. I think it best used to the abdomen or the upper inner thigh to the pressure point there. It can also be used in a combo towards the ankle to slow an opponent, then an intentional miss to the face (EDIT: or a kick there if the opponent doesn't move back) and hook back. Of course, that is not the traditional hook kick. Personally, I wouldn't recommend a palm to the back of the leg, but a sudo strike to the calf. In Hapkido we have such a kick defense where we move in and to the side, simultaneously slip the non-sudo hand under the leg, trapping the instep, as we trap the heel with the sudo striking hand, and twist the leg by pulling down on the instep and pushing up on the heel. It will dislocate the knee, hip, or both, and put the opponent on the ground. A heel down kick to the backbone or head should finish the job.

I can also see a well placed Hook Kick being used to hit someone in the back, due to the shape of it, at relatively close range (*Note to self: Try that Tomorrow*). Or of course, as a way of swinging your leg back after a missed Round Kick.
Otherwise, yeah, i can see it more being used to the Middle Abdomen or Upper Thighs. Or Kneescap, at a good angle; Albeit thats getting more into sweeps.

 

[andyjeffries]

If you get no points in sparring for connecting a kick to the abdomen then I guess it wouldn't be useful.

That's a good point. I was only thinking from my point of view where it has to connect and with power to score/be useful. But in a semi-contact/touch environment where any contact scores then it might be useful.

As to power, that has a lot to do with the individual practitioner. But remember in Hapkido we often think and move with circles in mind. The heel is considered to move in a arc, with its greatest power coming as it connects.

I'm not putting down Hapkido or the theory of circular motion (in fact I often teach students about how Taekwondo uses circular motion with linear motion to generate power). The greatest power as it connects is a given (otherwise I'd hope techniques were adjusted or you're just wasting energy).

However taking the other main point, even if the heel moves in an arc, it has to be a big arc for it to generate much power. Kinetic energy is related to mass and velocity - that's why kinetic linking (increasing the effective mass of the striking part) and speed are important (and it takes distance to accelerate to a fast speed. Kicking a little to the side of the technique then hooking won't generate much power.

That's not to say there are a few individuals out there that can make it work, but it's not a technique I'd teach because a)it won't work for me and b)I don't think it would work for 99% of people out there.

There is no stopping and starting again. Ki is needed also.

I'm personally very dubious of ki, so when I hear of it being "needed" for a technique to be useful my eyebrows naturally raise an inch or so...

Reminds me of the pasting Master Kiai had (look on YouTube for it if you haven't heard of it) even though he could fling his students around without touching them and others that claim to be able to knock others over without touching them (

). Derren Brown demonstrated this on his show (he's a mentalist/magician/hypnotist) without any Ki or martial arts training - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

If Ki is real (and I don't just mean in terms of spirit/focus but as an internal outwardly-projectable energy) then it should be demonstrable on any person wearing a blindfold and earmuffs who isn't expecting it to come. I'm fairly sure that's a scientific test that it would fail on - because if not, there'd be lots of people shouting it from the rooftops and on Youtube ;-)

 

[oftheherd1]

I can also see a well placed Hook Kick being used to hit someone in the back, due to the shape of it, at relatively close range (*Note to self: Try that Tomorrow*). Or of course, as a way of swinging your leg back after a missed Round Kick.
Otherwise, yeah, i can see it more being used to the Middle Abdomen or Upper Thighs. Or Kneescap, at a good angle; Albeit thats getting more into sweeps.

The back isn't something I had considered, but yes, that could be very effective applied to the spine. After a missed round house, it would be difficult. But if you plan it, your miss looks like that to an opponent who will no doubt counterattack, moving forward, into the hook. Thinking in arcs helps, but it is difficult to do nonetheless. Kneecaps maybe, we have a kick straight forward, against an opponent facing you, but in sparing, I think it could indeed be worthy of consideration from time to time.

Good ideas on your part.

 

[oftheherd1]

That's a good point. I was only thinking from my point of view where it has to connect and with power to score/be useful. But in a semi-contact/touch environment where any contact scores then it might be useful.



I'm not putting down Hapkido or the theory of circular motion (in fact I often teach students about how Taekwondo uses circular motion with linear motion to generate power). The greatest power as it connects is a given (otherwise I'd hope techniques were adjusted or you're just wasting energy).

However taking the other main point, even if the heel moves in an arc, it has to be a big arc for it to generate much power. Kinetic energy is related to mass and velocity - that's why kinetic linking (increasing the effective mass of the striking part) and speed are important (and it takes distance to accelerate to a fast speed. Kicking a little to the side of the technique then hooking won't generate much power.

That's not to say there are a few individuals out there that can make it work, but it's not a technique I'd teach because a)it won't work for me and b)I don't think it would work for 99% of people out there.



I'm personally very dubious of ki, so when I hear of it being "needed" for a technique to be useful my eyebrows naturally raise an inch or so...

Reminds me of the pasting Master Kiai had (look on YouTube for it if you haven't heard of it) even though he could fling his students around without touching them and others that claim to be able to knock others over without touching them (

). Derren Brown demonstrated this on his show (he's a mentalist/magician/hypnotist) without any Ki or martial arts training - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

If Ki is real (and I don't just mean in terms of spirit/focus but as an internal outwardly-projectable energy) then it should be demonstrable on any person wearing a blindfold and earmuffs who isn't expecting it to come. I'm fairly sure that's a scientific test that it would fail on - because if not, there'd be lots of people shouting it from the rooftops and on Youtube ;-)

I really don't know what to say to someone who is a 2nd dan (from your name line) and doesn't believe in ki. I am not talking about snuffing out candles from 30 feet, or kinetic levitation. If someone can do that, good for them. But I am referring to that projection of energy at the point of a strike (or block) that is more than just brute strength. It comes from faith, meditation (however you do that effectively), breathing (which comes from the tan jon), and practice. At least for me. YMMV, and apparently does.

I would encourage you to look in to it more. Perhaps talking to your teacher to get his/her beliefs on ki, and how to acquire it. I don't consider it to be mystical really, but an ability to use something available to all; but isn't usually acquired without training and practice. That is why most don't have it, or if they do, they don't have any control with/over it.

Did your teacher never talk to you about it, or give you any instruction on how to develop it?

EDIT: Sorry, I stilll relatively new to MT. Therefore the reference to your 2nd Dan in your name line. I looked at your profile and realize you are well byond that. My apologies. But that only makes me more amazed that you don't believe in ki, at least as I defined it above. I really am curious what you think of how I see ki.

 

[Thesemindz]

As far as the hook kick goes I've used it very effectively to the body. Jaw, shoulder, ribs, bladder, kidneys, spine, groin, inside of the thigh, knee, and inside of the shin are all effective targets with the hook kick. But we don't train sport karate, and that would make a difference. Still, even in competition, a powerful hook kick or spinning hook kick can be a very effective weapon. I can't speak to the hogu, because we don't wear them, but I can speak to the penetrating power. I've known people to break ribs with outward horizontal heel hook kicks.


-Rob

 

[andyjeffries]

I really don't know what to say to someone who is a 2nd dan (from your name line) and doesn't believe in ki.

LOL! That's my "MartialTalk Rank" - a sign of how many times I've posted on MartialTalk. I see you've found out my rank afterwards, but for now we'll take "you've got to 2nd Dan and don't believe in ki" we can still continue...

I am not talking about snuffing out candles from 30 feet, or kinetic levitation. If someone can do that, good for them. But I am referring to that projection of energy at the point of a strike (or block) that is more than just brute strength. It comes from faith, meditation (however you do that effectively), breathing (which comes from the tan jon), and practice. At least for me. YMMV, and apparently does.

That's fine, a lot of people think otherwise and do believe it's a mystical energy force.

I believe in correct breathing and appropriate tension. Some people (seemingly like yourself) call that Ki and I'm OK with that and agree.

However, I do not believe in anything requiring faith. Faith means there's no evidence, you just have to take it from me. I prefer to actually have proof.

I would encourage you to look in to it more. Perhaps talking to your teacher to get his/her beliefs on ki, and how to acquire it.

My senior doesn't believe in Ki at all, just in correct modern sports breathing. My grandmaster believes in it internally but not in external projects. He also teaches though that breathing correctly is sufficient and you don't need to have faith or meditate.

I don't consider it to be mystical really, but an ability to use something available to all; but isn't usually acquired without training and practice. That is why most don't have it, or if they do, they don't have any control with/over it.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a demonstration of it sometime. I understand that correct breathing is a habit but I don't see it beyond the practice required to break the habit of breathing in through the mouth.

Did your teacher never talk to you about it, or give you any instruction on how to develop it?

As above.

EDIT: Sorry, I stilll relatively new to MT. Therefore the reference to your 2nd Dan in your name line. I looked at your profile and realize you are well byond that. My apologies.

No worries

But that only makes me more amazed that you don't believe in ki, at least as I defined it above. I really am curious what you think of how I see ki.

I agree with you in improved breathing can help you generate more power (and stamina), but I don't think it requires major amounts of practice, meditation or faith.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-...e-your-endurance/81-boxer-breathing-technique
http://www.authentic-breathing.com/breathingforathletes.htm
http://www.livestrong.com/article/230779-nose-breathing-running/
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-secret-weapon-sports.html

 

[Xue Sheng]

My Top 5 of the styles I have trained

1) Xingyiquan
2) Taijiquan
3) Wing Chun
4) Baguazhang
5) Jujutsu

 

[andyjeffries]

My Top 5 of the styles I have trained

1) Xingyiquan
2) Taijiquan
3) Wing Chun
4) Baguazhang
5) Jujutsu

This may be going a bit off topic, but why is Taekwondo not in your Top 5? If the answer is "I've never done it" why are you on the Taekwondo board? I'm not saying you shouldn't be, just interested in why if you don't do Taekwondo.

 

[MaxiMe]

Sorry to much of a noob here to come up with 5
1. TKD my chosen training
2. Boxing I like Bill am on the height challenged side and like to use my hands more than most TKD folks I've been around.

One thing I didn't see mentioned about the hook kick is as a distraction. Used to the mid section to lower the guard and folled up with a back fist or chop has worked pretty well for me.

 

[MaxiMe]

Sorry to much of a noob here to come up with 5
1. TKD my chosen training
2. Boxing I like Bill am on the height challenged side and like to use my hands more than most TKD folks I've been around.

One thing I didn't see mentioned about the hook kick is as a distraction. Used to the mid section to lower the guard and folled up with a back fist or chop has worked pretty well for me.

fat fingers as well can't type woth a hoot

 

[oftheherd1]

LOL! That's my "MartialTalk Rank" - a sign of how many times I've posted on MartialTalk. I see you've found out my rank afterwards, but for now we'll take "you've got to 2nd Dan and don't believe in ki" we can still continue...

Yep, I got my fingers in motion before I got my brain engaged.

That's fine, a lot of people think otherwise and do believe it's a mystical energy force.

I believe in correct breathing and appropriate tension. Some people (seemingly like yourself) call that Ki and I'm OK with that and agree.

Well, I think it is more than just breathing. It is the application and projection of great power/energy at the point of a strike or kick. It is a belief that a thing can be done. It is a flow of energy.

However, I do not believe in anything requiring faith. Faith means there's no evidence, you just have to take it from me. I prefer to actually have proof.

I would think seeing the application of ki would be proof.

My senior doesn't believe in Ki at all, just in correct modern sports breathing. My grandmaster believes in it internally but not in external projects. He also teaches though that breathing correctly is sufficient and you don't need to have faith or meditate.

What advantage does he see in ki if it is only internal and doesn't have an external use?

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a demonstration of it sometime. I understand that correct breathing is a habit but I don't see it beyond the practice required to break the habit of breathing in through the mouth.

So can I conclude that you believe you can break boards, concrete and rocks with brute force alone, and that bone is stronger than boards, concrete and rocks?

As above.



No worries



I agree with you in improved breathing can help you generate more power (and stamina), but I don't think it requires major amounts of practice, meditation or faith.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-...e-your-endurance/81-boxer-breathing-technique
http://www.authentic-breathing.com/breathingforathletes.htm
http://www.livestrong.com/article/230779-nose-breathing-running/
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-secret-weapon-sports.html

I have put comments and questions above in bold letters for whatever comments you may care to share. But it looks like we simply have to have a different understanding on some things. I can live with that as I am sure you can. But it does make for interesting thought sharing, and I enjoy that when done in a civil manner as we are doing. It may provoke interesting comments from others as well. Thanks for your responses so far.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This may be going a bit off topic, but why is Taekwondo not in your Top 5? If the answer is "I've never done it" why are you on the Taekwondo board? I'm not saying you shouldn't be, just interested in why if you don't do Taekwondo.

Did TKD over 30 years ago and I would have put it at number 2 then.... I have since moved on to other styles, mostly Chinese. I am on the board just cause I felt like it. And did not realize nor has it ever been expalined to me or questioned before (in the last 4.5 years on MT) that if you did not do TKD or that it was not one of your favorite arts that I was not allowed on or not suppose to comment on the TKD section of MT

 

[andyjeffries]

Did TKD over 30 years ago and I would have put it at number 2 then.... I have since moved on to other styles, mostly Chinese.

Cool.

I am on the board just cause I felt like it. And did not realize nor has it ever been expalined to me or questioned before (in the last 4.5 years on MT) that if you did not do TKD or that it was not one of your favorite arts that I was not allowed on or not suppose to comment on the TKD section of MT

I'm sorry Xue Sheng, you seem to have taken offence from my question. I assure you there was none intended, and I'm sure the others on here who know me would vouch for that.

It was an "out of interest" question, hence why I specifically wrote "I'm not saying you shouldn't be".

It might just be you saw it on TV once and liked it so tend to have an interest. For example, I have an interest in Hapkido. I did it every other week for a few months but wouldn't consider it one of my martial arts. However I sometimes have a browse on the Hapkido forums just because I'm interested. I didn't know if you were the same or if you were an ex-Taekwondoin.

Thank you for answering my question and I hope you feel sufficiently satisfied that I didn't mean it in a "oy! outsider! what are you doing here?" sort of way...