My point about going a mile distance

[Steve]

There's a major difference between martial arts and an academic course of study. When you attend school, you are enrolled in a particular iteration of the class, which progresses according to a fixed timeline. Over the course of this timeline, you are assessed at regular intervals and then given a grade to indicate how well you did at the end. In the UK model, you just take a final and that's the grade. If you pass, great. If you fail, you can (or must) take the course over again. Accreditation is also a big part of education. Colleges and Universities (at least in the USA) are reviewed as a part of a peer review process that has been around for the better part of 75 years (IIRC). So, there is consistency in the process that is mandated by a process of self policing.

Martial arts don't typically follow a rigorous timeline. People start at at all different times and progress at their own pace. There is no external, peer review, or at least, if there is it is specific to that school's affiliation to a specific organization. There is no external, objective peer review or accreditation process.

Finally, martial arts has much less in common with school than with a sports club or a gym. The business model for a yoga school is functionally the same as for a martial arts school.

 

[Cirdan]

About teaching being rushed, it is the job of the instructor to keep you out of your comfort zone during lessons.

And for the N`th time, students get their belts when they deserve them, no matter how testing is done. There is no secret to it, no perfect way to do it, no cosmic truths to dig up. So stop worrying about it and shut up and train

I have a possible grading coming up this summer myself. I don`t worry too much about it, I do train every day tho and that is what is important. If I am ready by then I will test and pass. If not well it is not the end of the world.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Although I think we have discussed points of PhotonGuy"s post before it might be good to discuss it again but I think it should be in another thread if anyone would care to start one on the subject

So what should be the title of the thread? Do you want to start it?

 

[Transk53]

So what should be the title of the thread? Do you want to start it?

Calm down, there was no malice in tshadowchaser's post, of that I am sure!

 

[PhotonGuy]

Calm down, there was no malice in tshadowchaser's post, of that I am sure!

I never said there was. I simply said that if they think its a good idea to start a new thread than they should and I was asking what the thread should be called.

 

[PhotonGuy]

As a martial arts instructor I really don't need to waste my time testing people I think are going to fail, and given that the only thing that me not testing someone will do is delay their next rank, no big deal. As for academic settings that is more of logistics thing, an instructor would prefer to focus on only a certain number of classes at a given time, if you as the student can't meet the timeframe then you don't succeed. Not having a student flunk a test is not necessarily the goal of all instructors, I have been in "weeding out" classes whose difficulty was set precisely to figure out who was capable of advancing into certain majors.

So Blindside has anybody ever failed your tests? You say you don't test students until they're ready, so have students failed?

 

[tshadowchaser]

PhontonGuy

here is the thread I hope everyone enjoys the debate/discussion
http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/acidemic-testing-vs-martial-school-testing

 

[Blindside]

So Blindside has anybody ever failed your tests? You say you don't test students until they're ready, so have students failed?

So I was actually talking about when I taught kenpo, and I only know of one student who failed, you still have to perform on the test.

These days in kali I don't rank test, and only promote when a student reaches an instructor rank, until then you are simply a student.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So I was actually talking about when I taught kenpo, and I only know of one student who failed, you still have to perform on the test.

These days in kali I don't rank test, and only promote when a student reaches an instructor rank, until then you are simply a student.

So Blindside, back in the days when you did test you said you wouldn't test students until you felt they were ready but that students could still fail since for a student to pass the test, they had to perform well enough in the test. So, when you felt a student was ready that was no guarantee that they would pass but you would not test a student until you felt they were ready nonetheless. Is that right?

 

[Blindside]

So Blindside, back in the days when you did test you said you wouldn't test students until you felt they were ready but that students could still fail since for a student to pass the test, they had to perform well enough in the test. So, when you felt a student was ready that was no guarantee that they would pass but you would not test a student until you felt they were ready nonetheless. Is that right?

Correct.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Correct.

I see. Well, if a student isn't ready I do think its important for the student to know why they're not ready. Take for instance Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Somebody on this board said that from white to black to go up a belt on the average it takes about two and a half years. So therefore it would roughly take ten years to get a black belt in BJJ with approx. 2 1/2 years per belt although they also mentioned that some students for whatever reasons might get stuck at a certain belt or belts for longer than that.

So anyway, if I was doing BJJ I would expect to take about 2 1/2 years to advance in belts. As its been pointed out you can't rush stuff otherwise you will just end up ruining it so I would expect it to take the standard amount of time for me to advance in belts which in the case of BJJ would be 2 1/2 years. However, as its also been pointed out that students might sometimes get stuck for longer than that. So if I was stuck for longer than that I would want to know why. In order to know why I would have to ask my sensei. So would it be appropriate to ask my sensei or would it be disrespectful? Some people here consider it disrespectful to ask questions about belts and rank, or at least that's the impression I get. But it makes sense that if you're stuck its appropriate to ask. So how would you see that? Thoughts?

 

[Blindside]

I see. Well, if a student isn't ready I do think its important for the student to know why they're not ready. Take for instance Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Somebody on this board said that from white to black to go up a belt on the average it takes about two and a half years. So therefore it would roughly take ten years to get a black belt in BJJ with approx. 2 1/2 years per belt although they also mentioned that some students for whatever reasons might get stuck at a certain belt or belts for longer than that.

So anyway, if I was doing BJJ I would expect to take about 2 1/2 years to advance in belts. As its been pointed out you can't rush stuff otherwise you will just end up ruining it so I would expect it to take the standard amount of time for me to advance in belts which in the case of BJJ would be 2 1/2 years. However, as its also been pointed out that students might sometimes get stuck for longer than that. So if I was stuck for longer than that I would want to know why. In order to know why I would have to ask my sensei. So would it be appropriate to ask my sensei or would it be disrespectful? Some people here consider it disrespectful to ask questions about belts and rank, or at least that's the impression I get. But it makes sense that if you're stuck its appropriate to ask. So how would you see that? Thoughts?

If you were doing BJJ and you got "stuck" at blue and weren't being promoted to purple it would be readily obvious why you weren't being promoted, because every time you got on the mat to roll you could hang with the blues and were generally dominated by the purples. You don't deserve purple if you can't hang with the purples, BJJ is great that way. I would hope that you could figure out on your own that "hey my guard passing sucks, maybe I should ask for some help."

I am all for communication with an instructor, I think the "it is disrespectful to ask about promotion" bit is BS. If someone has a question to me about where they stand and what they need to work on I will tell them. But again, as been said so many times before, that is the instructors prerogative and they may run their school differently.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you were doing BJJ and you got "stuck" at blue and weren't being promoted to purple it would be readily obvious why you weren't being promoted, because every time you got on the mat to roll you could hang with the blues and were generally dominated by the purples. You don't deserve purple if you can't hang with the purples, BJJ is great that way. I would hope that you could figure out on your own that "hey my guard passing sucks, maybe I should ask for some help."

I am all for communication with an instructor, I think the "it is disrespectful to ask about promotion" bit is BS. If someone has a question to me about where they stand and what they need to work on I will tell them. But again, as been said so many times before, that is the instructors prerogative and they may run their school differently.

If I was a blue belt in BJJ and I kept getting beaten by purple belts I would try to figure out why but I might also ask for help. Lets say I realize my guard passing sucks and so I try to work on it but Im still getting beaten in that case I would ask about what Im doing wrong so I can work on it and with some work be able to hold my own against purple belts and get a purple belt. However, with some styles it isn't so obvious as to why a person is stuck. I was using BJJ as an example since somebody pointed out how it generally takes 2 1/2 years in BJJ to advance and so I was saying that if I was doing BJJ that's how long I would expect before I advanced. Advancements in some styles don't entirely depend on being able to hold your own in a sparring match against people who are a belt higher than you. This is particularly true in styles where forms or katas play a big role in advancement.

Yes you're right that instructors can run their dojos as they see fit and since we both agree on it not being disrespectful to ask about rank perhaps you were not the best person to ask. I can see how it could be considered disrespectful to ask questions such as "am I testing?" or "when will I test?" but I personally don't see anything wrong with asking stuff such as "what do I need to do to be ready to test?" I think its good for a sensei to tell a student "the reason you're not ready is because blah blah blah, this is what you need to work on," and that if a sensei isn't telling a student that outright I don't see it as a problem if the student asks. Again that is just me and as you said everybody does it differently. I just want to know why some people would have a problem with that but as you agree with me you wouldn't be the right person to ask.

As for instructors who might take offense to a student asking what I mentioned above or who might consider it disrespectful, as for knowing if your instructor is like that, you're not going to know without asking in the first place, are you?

 

[Transk53]

If I was a blue belt in BJJ and I kept getting beaten by purple belts I would try to figure out why but I might also ask for help. Lets say I realize my guard passing sucks and so I try to work on it but Im still getting beaten in that case I would ask about what Im doing wrong so I can work on it and with some work be able to hold my own against purple belts and get a purple belt. However, with some styles it isn't so obvious as to why a person is stuck. I was using BJJ as an example since somebody pointed out how it generally takes 2 1/2 years in BJJ to advance and so I was saying that if I was doing BJJ that's how long I would expect before I advanced. Advancements in some styles don't entirely depend on being able to hold your own in a sparring match against people who are a belt higher than you. This is particularly true in styles where forms or katas play a big role in advancement.

Yes you're right that instructors can run their dojos as they see fit and since we both agree on it not being disrespectful to ask about rank perhaps you were not the best person to ask. I can see how it could be considered disrespectful to ask questions such as "am I testing?" or "when will I test?" but I personally don't see anything wrong with asking stuff such as "what do I need to do to be ready to test?" I think its good for a sensei to tell a student "the reason you're not ready is because blah blah blah, this is what you need to work on," and that if a sensei isn't telling a student that outright I don't see it as a problem if the student asks. Again that is just me and as you said everybody does it differently. I just want to know why some people would have a problem with that but as you agree with me you wouldn't be the right person to ask.

As for instructors who might take offense to a student asking what I mentioned above or who might consider it disrespectful, as for knowing if your instructor is like that, you're not going to know without asking in the first place, are you?

Then ask the right question. Imbue yourself with the right first question to ask.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Then ask the right question. Imbue yourself with the right first question to ask.

So another words, first ask your instructor if its right to ask questions about belts and rank before you ask about stuff like that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So another words, first ask your instructor if its right to ask questions about belts and rank before you ask about stuff like that.

Or, as has been said before... shut up and train.

 

[Tgace]

A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a great and famous swordsman. When he arrived at the school he was given an audience with the founder, who was impressed that this young boy had made such a long journey.

'What do you want from me?' the master asked.

'I wish to be your student and become the finest swordsman in the land,' the boy replied. 'How long must I study?'

'Ten years at least,' the master answered.

'Ten years is a long time. What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?'

'Twenty years,' replied the master.

'Twenty years! What if I practiced unrelentingly, day and night with all my effort?'

'Thirty years,' replied the master.

'How is it that each time I say I will work harder you tell me that it will take longer?' the student asked, quite confused by now.

'The answer is clear,' said the master.

'When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way.'

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[PhotonGuy]

For a sensei to not test or promote a student when the student isn't ready, the sensei is only doing their job. Lets face it, a good sensei will not promote a student who isn't ready. The problem is, if you don't know why you aren't being promoted. Not getting a belt is one thing, not knowing why you aren't getting the belt is something else.

 

[Transk53]

For a sensei to not test or promote a student when the student isn't ready, the sensei is only doing their job. Lets face it, a good sensei will not promote a student who isn't ready. The problem is, if you don't know why you aren't being promoted. Not getting a belt is one thing, not knowing why you aren't getting the belt is something else.

Then surely if the student does not know, then perhaps that is the fundamental problem. The student has not, or is not listening.

 

[Blindside]

A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a great and famous swordsman. When he arrived at the school he was given an audience with the founder, who was impressed that this young boy had made such a long journey.

'What do you want from me?' the master asked.

'I wish to be your student and become the finest swordsman in the land,' the boy replied. 'How long must I study?'

'Ten years at least,' the master answered.

'Ten years is a long time. What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?'

'Twenty years,' replied the master.

'Twenty years! What if I practiced unrelentingly, day and night with all my effort?'

'Thirty years,' replied the master.

'How is it that each time I say I will work harder you tell me that it will take longer?' the student asked, quite confused by now.

'The answer is clear,' said the master.

'When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way.'

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

I never liked that parable, you think Michael Jordan never strove to be the best? Or if we are going to keep it to swordsmanship, Miyamoto Musashi?