My point about going a mile distance

[drop bear]

What context? You said sport fighting if you meant something else you should say what you mean.

'Biased' video?

'Fought a war' sounds like commentator speak when they are hyping a fighter or fight up.

yeah the video is done by the other guy and doesn't show the whole fight just the bits where he looks cool. With some of the extra cool bits repeated.

a war is pretty accurate for this one.

as a side note the danimal is the toughest guy i know. He was the guy who taught me that apparently you can just refuse to be guillotined.

 

[Tez3]

Er, if you think that is 'war' I hate to think what the other fights are like.

 

[drop bear]

While on a lenny mclean video watch.

found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.

 

[drop bear]

Er, if you think that is 'war' I hate to think what the other fights are like.

let me guess. This would be one of those comments that i am not supposed to respond to because conversation is not sparring.

the other fights are short.

 

[Tez3]

While on a lenny mclean video watch.

found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.
]

Really? you're quoting that scumbag?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Probably because you went in too fast.

Nope they had us go slow. As beginners they wanted us to develop proper technique so they made sure we didn't rush it and go too fast to the point that we would develop slop.

 

[Transk53]

Nope they had us go slow. As beginners they wanted us to develop proper technique so they made sure we didn't rush it and go too fast to the point that we would develop slop.

Yeah I can see that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There's some interesting ideas here, which might benefit from highlighting and expanding...



Okay, cool… here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skill… in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test again… and again… and again…), it's really nothing alike.

Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarity… it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistently… then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutes… until you can do that consistently… then 8 minutes… and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you want… but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.

When I talk about attaining a goal in the martial arts Im not necessarily talking about a black belt or any type of rank, a goal can also be to just develop your skill or techniques up to a certain level of proficiency. You could be training in a style that doesn't use rank and you might still want to build your techniques up to a certain level of adeptness. As for wanting to get your mile run or 100 yard dash down to a certain time and then after you get that to work on getting a lower time and then lower and so on, the same concept can be used with martial arts training. You want to get so good at a technique, and then get better and better and so on.

Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at all… it depends on the art… as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaido… which is wildly different than for Judo… which is different again to MMA.

True some styles don't require the same level of fitness as others but for every style, you at least have to be able to do the moves, and to be able to properly do the moves often does require a person to be in good enough shape to move their bodies in the proper motions.

Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.

It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their art… which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at all… then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKD… and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudo…

This is just my experience. All the instructors I've trained under have either encouraged a student to be in good shape or at least recommended it.

Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shape… overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak of… but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"… but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".

To be able to hit hard you do have to be strong. You can know how to throw a punch and be able to do the proper technique but in order for that technique to have power there has to be strength behind it. There are people who on their first day of boxing classes might punch with the same form as a professional boxer but that doesn't mean they can get in the right with a professional boxer because while they have the form, they haven't yet developed the speed and power, not to mention the ability to take hits which also depends on being in good shape.

You're taking too black and white a position here… for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".

Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial arts… you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardio… and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we do… we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about it… the rest of the time is focused on learning the art… which is technical execution… aiming to minimise the strength needed.

You don't have to be the most fit person in the world but it does make a big difference if you're in reasonably good shape as opposed to just being a couch potato. Of course, if a couch potato decides to train in any of the martial arts I've trained in they won't be a couch potato for long because as I posted before, the martial arts that I trained in will get you in good shape, if from anything just from doing the drills.

Although most martial arts classes I've taken do involve some calisthenics Weights, cardio, and other such exercises can be done by the student on their own outside of class. Most of the class time is taught teaching the technique because that's what the class is about. Class time is not wasted on stuff that students can do separately.

And with technique, the purpose of good technique in the styles I've trained in is to use your strength in the best most efficient manner. To maximize the results you get from using your strength. You could say that minimizing the strength needed does play a part since you want to get the most from the least but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use what strength you've got. After all, if a little bit goes a long way than a lot will go even further.

Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?

My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitness… I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniques… and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they are… but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relative…

In all of the styles I've trained in, when you finish a class you get a decent if not good workout.

A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up time… there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant level… your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fighters… you need recovery time.

In Thailand professional Thai fighters usually fight every three weeks. Of course they usually retire at or around the age of 20.

Being prepared is one thing… operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)… additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all times… and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.

OK I see your point.

Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scouts…

Perhaps not but they do have some stuff in common. Both have taught me to be prepared.

staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"… it is simply "relaxed awareness"… that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitness… but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.

True that being in the yellow does mean relaxed awareness but overall its just a part of being prepared. Being "fight ready" would be more in the orange where you expect the possibility of trouble. At work in the office would be a good time to be in the yellow, in a dark alley would be a good time to be in the orange. As for being in the white, where you are unaware and unprepared, the only time one should really be in the white is when they're sleeping since you don't have a choice then. Unfortunately lots of people are in the white the majority of the time they're awake and thus they make easy victims.

Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the time…

At the time I was a competitive swimmer and I would regularly do swimming workouts for hours, so I was in good shape.

And how is that achieved with fitness?

Being in good shape can give you confidence and confidence plays a big role in whether or not you will make an easy victim.

 

[Chris Parker]

ok so training for a three second fight against a non athletic guy. Is lowering the expectation of your martial arts training. Rather than training for a long fight against an athlete.

Here's the thing… it's not lowering any bar… from my perspective, it's raising it. We don't train for elongated engagements… we don't have the luxury of "feeling out" an opponent, of trying different things to see what gets through… what we do has to work, immediately, powerfully. There's no second chances for the most part… assessments must be immediate, decisions without hesitation, and application direct.

In other words, it's a completely different context and application. Just because what I do doesn't match what you think is "hard" doesn't make what I do easy, or mean any kind of "lowering of the bar"… it's simply a different type of "hard". You might want to remember that in future… what you do is not any form of "litmus test" for what a martial art is, or should be.

i don't have an issue with lowering the bar. We are all more than martial artists. I have a low bar in comparison to guys who fight professionally. But i also don't need to justify myself when they clean my clock.

if they are fitter,stronger,train harder and for longer they will become more technically proficient than myself who does not.

You're still using a false equivalence here… which is the issue.

so we go back to that mile. He runs it i walk it. He gets to the end of that mile more quickly. He can now run back in the time it takes for me to finish mine. At the end of the year he is better at covering that mile than me.

No, he isn't. He's just covering it differently. That's the point.

you are correct it is a sport fighting methodology. And that is because sport fighting is hard.

Ha!

No. It's not.

Geoff Thompson writer - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

just looked up Geoff Thompson. Is that accurate. And if so are we ignoring a huge leaning towards sports methodology for one easy point about 3 second fights?

No. I suggest you look into what the 3 Second Fighter is first…

yeah the video is done by the other guy and doesn't show the whole fight just the bits where he looks cool. With some of the extra cool bits repeated.

a war is pretty accurate for this one.

as a side note the danimal is the toughest guy i know. He was the guy who taught me that apparently you can just refuse to be guillotined.

That's a "war"? Cute.

Oh, and "the danimal"? Also cute… Look, I get that he's what you consider "tough"… and that's great… but I really do have to point out (again) that your take on things isn't going to be the same as everyone else's…

While on a lenny mclean video watch.

found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.

Er… you do know that he never, not once in that video, ever says anything about staying fit for self defence style altercations… he's talking specifically about his experience as a bare-knuckle boxer, where fights would often be "quick"… meaning about 2 minutes… which is still nearly 2 minutes longer than most street altercations… so… no.

let me guess. This would be one of those comments that i am not supposed to respond to because conversation is not sparring.

the other fights are short.

Conversation is not sparring, that's been mentioned a number of times, and at this point, I suggest you let go of that, and other comments made to you that you patently don't understand (such as the nature of evidence, when you can be your own source, and so on), but that is not anything to do with the comment Tez made. She was simply saying that the video you provided was, although a reasonable match, hardly what many here would consider "a war".

And what does that other fight have to do with anything? It's not the same people as in your first, so I fail to see the connection…

EDIT: Content moved to the correct thread.

 

[Chris Parker]

When I talk about attaining a goal in the martial arts Im not necessarily talking about a black belt or any type of rank, a goal can also be to just develop your skill or techniques up to a certain level of proficiency. You could be training in a style that doesn't use rank and you might still want to build your techniques up to a certain level of adeptness. As for wanting to get your mile run or 100 yard dash down to a certain time and then after you get that to work on getting a lower time and then lower and so on, the same concept can be used with martial arts training. You want to get so good at a technique, and then get better and better and so on.

You were talking specifically about attaining a black belt, even more specifically about doing it in some self-determined timeline. So yeah, you were talking about a black belt or any type of rank… which is why the whole idea of "running a mile" was really a false equivalence… and you've again missed the point.

True some styles don't require the same level of fitness as others but for every style, you at least have to be able to do the moves, and to be able to properly do the moves often does require a person to be in good enough shape to move their bodies in the proper motions.

The issue is that that's such a vague, open ended comment that it's simply not practicable as a comment at all… sure, you have to be able to do the moves… but that doesn't imply, mean, or require any particular level of fitness at all. While some arts will have a particular level of physical condition, it's hardly something that can be taken to mean that martial arts require a degree of fitness. I mean, what shape do you need to be in to do the "proper motions"? And what happens if someone has a physical disability, requiring the actions to be altered (such as an amputation)?

Can you see how it's not that simple?

This is just my experience. All the instructors I've trained under have either encouraged a student to be in good shape or at least recommended it.

And that's fine… I recommend it as well… but that doesn't mean it's required for the study of the art… although it is certainly a benefit.

To be able to hit hard you do have to be strong. You can know how to throw a punch and be able to do the proper technique but in order for that technique to have power there has to be strength behind it. There are people who on their first day of boxing classes might punch with the same form as a professional boxer but that doesn't mean they can get in the right with a professional boxer because while they have the form, they haven't yet developed the speed and power, not to mention the ability to take hits which also depends on being in good shape.

No.

Look, there are guys I train that are much stronger (physically) than I am… but I hit a hell of a lot harder than them… it's got little to nothing to do with physical strength. And, bluntly, you will not get someone on their first night punching with the same form as a professional boxer… to think that that is a realistic appraisal is to not understand proper form, or it's affect on power generation. Oh, and being in good shape isn't something that gives the ability to take a hit, you realise…

You don't have to be the most fit person in the world but it does make a big difference if you're in reasonably good shape as opposed to just being a couch potato. Of course, if a couch potato decides to train in any of the martial arts I've trained in they won't be a couch potato for long because as I posted before, the martial arts that I trained in will get you in good shape, if from anything just from doing the drills.

And what you need to realise is that that is, as you say, "the martial arts you've trained in"… far from the bulk of other arts and approaches. But you do get that you can be a martial artist, and still be out of shape, yeah? While it might not be the best plan, it does show that martial arts are not specifically about fitness…

Although most martial arts classes I've taken do involve some calisthenics Weights, cardio, and other such exercises can be done by the student on their own outside of class. Most of the class time is taught teaching the technique because that's what the class is about. Class time is not wasted on stuff that students can do separately.

Which again shows that fitness and strength training is not a part of those arts… it's a much bigger part of competitive (sport) systems, where it's far more important. Confusing martial sports with all forms of martial arts will just lead to inaccurate assumptions and ideas.

And with technique, the purpose of good technique in the styles I've trained in is to use your strength in the best most efficient manner. To maximize the results you get from using your strength. You could say that minimizing the strength needed does play a part since you want to get the most from the least but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use what strength you've got. After all, if a little bit goes a long way than a lot will go even further.

No, actually. Again, I have guys much stronger than me… and frankly, it's not that important. In fact, they get corrected if they just use strength… or if they overly muscle things. The reason is that it interferes with correct form, and actually limits the power they can achieve.

In all of the styles I've trained in, when you finish a class you get a decent if not good workout.

Again, that comes down to the system, the class, the instructor, and your own personal level of fitness to begin with.

In Thailand professional Thai fighters usually fight every three weeks. Of course they usually retire at or around the age of 20.

Er… okay… and?

Look, the Thai boxing culture is at a faster pace than the MMA timeline, but it's the same principle.

OK I see your point.

Okay.

Perhaps not but they do have some stuff in common. Both have taught me to be prepared.

Sigh… do you really want to go down this path again?

True that being in the yellow does mean relaxed awareness but overall its just a part of being prepared. Being "fight ready" would be more in the orange where you expect the possibility of trouble. At work in the office would be a good time to be in the yellow, in a dark alley would be a good time to be in the orange. As for being in the white, where you are unaware and unprepared, the only time one should really be in the white is when they're sleeping since you don't have a choice then. Unfortunately lots of people are in the white the majority of the time they're awake and thus they make easy victims.

You really aren't in a position to educate on the colour codes, you know… and honestly, I have issues with it as is, as it's often too defining in it's approach… a more realistic expression would be graduated shades… and honestly, both the dark alley and the office are yellow… orange is for when you know you will likely need to engage.

As for people being in the white, sure. Not really anything to do with this thread, or this forum, though…

At the time I was a competitive swimmer and I would regularly do swimming workouts for hours, so I was in good shape.

You were 12, you said. Your body hadn't really gotten to the point where such things can be defined that well. And, importantly, you were a white belt, which made you an absolute beginner… in which case, it was probably simply something your body wasn't used to… so, despite your "good shape", it wasn't the right type of fitness for what you were then starting to put it through.

Being in good shape can give you confidence and confidence plays a big role in whether or not you will make an easy victim.

Actually, no, it's not that clear cut either. While confidence can make you less appealing as a victim to a resource predator (a robber/mugger etc), it can make you more appealing to a social attack (an attempt to raise social status at the expense of another). Additionally, having confidence based on simple fitness can lead you to miss the warnings of an attack… leaving you open to attack largely due to that undeserved sense of confidence.

 

[drop bear]

And, it seems, the answer to that has been "by accident".



By changing the angle of the kick, you change the position of the hips, which changes the orientation of the leg, which changes the position of the support leg… all of which makes it a very different kick.



You don't know why a different kick, with a different set up, a different angle, a different striking surface (in many cases), a different hip and support leg position, a different primary target, and more is a different kick? Are you sure about that?



And, I gotta tell you, that's a deeply flawed idea. For one thing, you get me to kick you in the inner thigh instead of the groin, you're still not going to want to stand there and take it as a training method… trust me, I kick you there, you drop. But hey, that's just the way we kick to that target…

The reality is that there is always some compromise for safety versus realism in all training methods. That's just the way it has to be… to train a kick that's not a groin kick in order to train a groin kick, as you think training an actual groin kick is too dangerous, or not possible, is just to be completely unaware of the way these things work… and to completely miss the point of training a groin kick in the first place.



Kyokushin… you might want to start learning to spell the name, if you are going to use them as an example…



He does. He has done for many years… decades… your level of experience is a little more in doubt, honestly…

That said...



Here, I agree with you. The entire point of chambering a kick is to generate power. Yes, it can be slower, and sometimes easier to read… but I don't agree with K-man that it "robs you of power".



It depends on the set-up. As an initial launch, or attack, yeah, it can be read and avoided… but as a follow up, it can be a devastatingly powerful "finisher"… of course, the target is important as well…

But yeah, as with everything… it depends. Chambered kicks can be good, bad, or anything in between for both sport and "real life" applications.



Yeah… you've jumped a bit there… but to begin with, what kicks exactly is your "trained fighter" facing? What's the set-up? What's the context? What are the tactical methods of the system they're using? And, as far as the "street attacker", what skills and tactics do you think they're developing?



Here's the thing… it's not lowering any bar… from my perspective, it's raising it. We don't train for elongated engagements… we don't have the luxury of "feeling out" an opponent, of trying different things to see what gets through… what we do has to work, immediately, powerfully. There's no second chances for the most part… assessments must be immediate, decisions without hesitation, and application direct.

In other words, it's a completely different context and application. Just because what I do doesn't match what you think is "hard" doesn't make what I do easy, or mean any kind of "lowering of the bar"… it's simply a different type of "hard". You might want to remember that in future… what you do is not any form of "litmus test" for what a martial art is, or should be.



You're still using a false equivalence here… which is the issue.



No, he isn't. He's just covering it differently. That's the point.



Ha!

No. It's not.



No. I suggest you look into what the 3 Second Fighter is first…



That's a "war"? Cute.

Oh, and "the danimal"? Also cute… Look, I get that he's what you consider "tough"… and that's great… but I really do have to point out (again) that your take on things isn't going to be the same as everyone else's…



Er… you do know that he never, not once in that video, ever says anything about staying fit for self defence style altercations… he's talking specifically about his experience as a bare-knuckle boxer, where fights would often be "quick"… meaning about 2 minutes… which is still nearly 2 minutes longer than most street altercations… so… no.



Conversation is not sparring, that's been mentioned a number of times, and at this point, I suggest you let go of that, and other comments made to you that you patently don't understand (such as the nature of evidence, when you can be your own source, and so on), but that is not anything to do with the comment Tez made. She was simply saying that the video you provided was, although a reasonable match, hardly what many here would consider "a war".

And what does that other fight have to do with anything? It's not the same people as in your first, so I fail to see the connection…

did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?

i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.

 

[Chris Parker]

did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?

i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.

Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.

As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?

 

[Tgace]

Covering a physical distance (running) is not comparable to learning a skill/art....in any way.

This is a flawed conversation from the start.

 

[Tgace]

Eh. The BIG LIE that "size/conditioning doesn't matter".

Usually spouted by people who have never really been in a fight.

They may not be a replacement for skill/technique, but they certainty do matter in an unarmed confrontation.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.

As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?

ok outright wrong with the Lenny McLean video. Agree or dissagree with him he advocates strength in fights even if they are quick.

 

[drop bear]

Covering a physical distance (running) is not comparable to learning a skill/art....in any way.

This is a flawed conversation from the start.

it is a metaphor. I believe relating to the idea that if you work harder you will get results quicker.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.

As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?

regarding the war idea. The guy who did the fight considered it a war. Experienced fighters who saw it considered it a war.

and we can break an average person well inside the fifteen minute mark. In sparring. Going easy. It is a seriously long time to be fighting somone

have you trained or fought mma to make an expert judgement on this?

 

[drop bear]

did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?

i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.

ok. You mentioned about being your own source. And then have tried to explain to me what happens in a street fight. I have been in a heap of street fights and would still only suggest what happens to me or what i have observed.

you cant be your own source here. You do not have the experience in practical violence.

if Geoff Thompson does then he could be your external source.

 

[Tgace]

it is a metaphor. I believe relating to the idea that if you work harder you will get results quicker.

I know.. Its a flawed metaphor IMO. Learning a skill is as much a matter of time as it is effort. That being said, I suppose that daily instruction under a qualified teacher should advance you faster than two hours a class, two days a week.

Running a distance is not comparable to learning something.

 

[ballen0351]

have you trained or fought mma to make an expert judgement on this?

Hmmmm I've trained for actual War in the Marine Corps and that's not war. That's a sport. Perhaps we shouldn't throw around serious terms to describe a game