My point about going a mile distance
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
That's me, second from the left.I will happily stay in the penalty loop as long as these guys are there...not that they are often but I'll happily wait till they are.
Shai Hulud
Purple Belt
I find that a light jog finished off with a very brief burst of sprinting at the end works well for me.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I'd love to see you in one of our classes. You might just get a rude shock.
You can't tell the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. That is plain ridiculous. How about a world class gymnast who has been training a martial art for three months? He's very fit but he barely knows the basics of the art.
I'm not lowering the bar at all. In real defensive terms, most fights don't last long and even trained people going flat out don't last long. In a sport situation, fighters pace themselves. You can't do that on the street.
But I'm not advocating you don't keep reasonably fit. Obviously that is what we all want to do, but as you get older you change your approach to training and fighting, and if you stick around for long enough you might understand what I mean.
you just lowered the bar again. Most fights are short so you don't have to be fit. Fair enough. But you are training for a short fight.
The thing is, martial arts itself will get you in good shape. One of the reasons some people take up martial arts is to get in good shape. It is not uncommon for a person following a martial arts workout to be drenched with sweat. Doing techniques and combinations over and over again it is going to wear you out but build you up. So, for a person to get good at the martial arts, in the course of getting good they will get in good shape.
That is down to the individual. Most classes I have attended, the cardio bit if you will, was down to the student.
Elbowgrease
Green Belt
You kind of need to broaden your perception of martial arts. In my opinion. You have to consider psychological aspects as well. Psychological warfare is a powerful and important aspect of martial arts. It has to be considered. It doesn't necessarily require physical fitness, although that might help, but can in some cases be even more effective than the physical side of things. I haven't been in a physical fight in more than a decade, and I'm proud of that. I have ended or averted quite a few before they got to that point, though, and I'm proud of that. I'm also still alive, and not in prison. Doesn't mean I can't fight. Doesn't mean that I don't want to. I love to fight. There is no time that I feel more alive than when I'm fighting for my life and seriously trying to end someone else's. I've been fighting for my life since before I was in grade school. You don't even want to know. Doesn't mean I'm going to win all of them. There is always someone out there bigger, badder, faster, meaner, whatever. I can fight like a demon. I'm not terribly fit right now, but I'll give anybody that comes along one hell of a workout before I go down. But it usually doesn't come to that, and if it can be avoided it's even better. That is (in my opinion) the real purpose of studying martial arts, learning how to win without ever coming to blows.
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
You have a very simplistic attitude. I'm not training for any fight. If I was training for a serious fight I would train accordingly and I would taper and do all those things. My last tournament was when I was 58 and I got through to the second round. I was reasonably fit but I hadn't trained specifically for that tournament. These days I'll leave the sport stuff to guys like you. In the unlikely event I ever need to use my skills someone will probably get a nasty surprise. They won't be expecting to be fighting an old guy and I won't be fighting tournament style.
Very good reply, thankyou.Even as a white belt when I was 12, by the time training ended I had really worked up a sweat. Just from doing the drills.
I agree. I would say its best to have it so that nobody will bother you, so you won't have to fight.
Probably because you went in too fast.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
There's some interesting ideas here, which might benefit from highlighting and expanding...
Okay, coolā¦ here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skillā¦ in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test againā¦ and againā¦ and againā¦), it's really nothing alike.
Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarityā¦ it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistentlyā¦ then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutesā¦ until you can do that consistentlyā¦ then 8 minutesā¦ and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you wantā¦ but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.
Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at allā¦ it depends on the artā¦ as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaidoā¦ which is wildly different than for Judoā¦ which is different again to MMA.
Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.
It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their artā¦ which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at allā¦ then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKDā¦ and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudoā¦
I'd be a little careful stating such thingsā¦ especially when Ballen was much more on the ball than you were.
Yep, lifestyle and conditioning can be a big part of what constitutes "good shape"ā¦ and I get what you're saying hereā¦ but again, I'd point out that "good shape" can be highly dependant on a range of other factors, including what you're in good shape for.
Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shapeā¦ overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak ofā¦ but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"ā¦ but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".
You're taking too black and white a position hereā¦ for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".
Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial artsā¦ you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardioā¦ and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we doā¦ we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about itā¦ the rest of the time is focused on learning the artā¦ which is technical executionā¦ aiming to minimise the strength needed.
Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?
My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitnessā¦ I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniquesā¦ and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they areā¦ but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relativeā¦
Hmmā¦ not really a feature of any of my sessionsā¦. which, again, is just another way of saying that whether or not you trust it, it's the reality.
As others have said, because he was preparing for a fightā¦ against trained, skilled, fit competitors... which is not the reality (especially not at an elite level) for many martial artists.
Close. You need skill and technique above strength.
Yesā¦ but, and here's the bit that'll get you, technique, strength, and fitness are only parts of the storyā¦ and honestly, the less important partsā¦
It can doā¦ but that's not the point of that trainingā¦ as well as it only really coming up if you train the methods in a particular way. In some Japanese arts, there is the concept of hyaku training (training a single movement or technique for 100 repetitions). And yeah, that can certainly require some endurance/cardio (but not necessarily the same as that needed to make it through 3 x 5 minute rounds in an MMA contest), that's not really what it's about (physically). Additionally, the repetition might be 5 times a day, for 10 yearsā¦ you don't need much fitness or endurance to do that.
Yep, this is where we're getting into different forms of "fitness"ā¦ of course, the gymnast's form of fitness isn't going to be universally required eitherā¦
Okay, let's get into thisā¦ earlier you asked why Royce Gracie was weight training prior to his fights (specifically for the first UFC events, which were multiple fights on a single night), to which people pointed out that he was training for that (sport event) fightā¦ now here, you're acknowledging the differences between such contexts and situationsā¦ however, I feel that you're still missing a couple of aspects here.
First off, let's look at why the preparation for each is differentā¦ starting with the sports event. As you noted, you get a fair amount of advance notice of an upcoming fight (in most cases). That allows you to do something that self defence training doesn'tā¦ give you specific preparation. You can focus your training specifically towards the upcoming eventā¦ training for a specific (known) opponent, at a specific (known) time, in a specific (known) place, with a specific (known) set of circumstances and rules, dealing with a specific (known) set of physical skills and tactics, and so on.
In this situation, it really is to your advantage to train specifically in any form that will give you an advantageā¦ which includes training up to the event to ensure you will be in peak condition when it occurs (fitness, cardio, strength, health etc).
Okay, so we looked at what is an average preparation for a sporting event, a known activity against a known opponent etcā¦ however, as you point out here, that's not what we're dealing with when looking at self defence training methods. So let's look at thatā¦
A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up timeā¦ there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant levelā¦ your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fightersā¦ you need recovery time.
Being prepared is one thingā¦ operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)ā¦ additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all timesā¦ and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.
Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scoutsā¦ but no, staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"ā¦ it is simply "relaxed awareness"ā¦ that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitnessā¦ but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.
Kindaā¦ it requires enough to maintain tensionā¦ and some do require more strength than thatā¦ but that's not really what K-man was saying, of courseā¦
Maybe, but not necessarily.
For some, sureā¦ but not for all.
Depends on the art, the person, and the classā¦
Not necessarilyā¦ again, it depends on the art, the person, the class, and so onā¦ none of this is definite, or accurate across the board.
Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the timeā¦
And how is that achieved with fitness?
No, there's no "lowering of the bar" thereā¦ and who on earth says we're going up against "world class athletes"? Or even want to? That is so far from the application of my training that you might as well talk about what I'd need to consider to apply it on Marsā¦
Again, fitness is relativeā¦ and yeah, it can helpā¦ but you can be fit and not have it help your martial arts, or you can be a much better martial artist without any real emphasis on fitnessā¦
No, you really can't.
That's a sports mentalityā¦ I mean, I agree in principle, but there are a number of ways of achieving thatā¦
Tactically, absolutely I am. If you're interested in what I mean by that, check out Geoff Thompson's 3 Second Fighterā¦
Okay, coolā¦ here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skillā¦ in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test againā¦ and againā¦ and againā¦), it's really nothing alike.
Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarityā¦ it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistentlyā¦ then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutesā¦ until you can do that consistentlyā¦ then 8 minutesā¦ and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you wantā¦ but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.
Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at allā¦ it depends on the artā¦ as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaidoā¦ which is wildly different than for Judoā¦ which is different again to MMA.
Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.
It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their artā¦ which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at allā¦ then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKDā¦ and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudoā¦
I'd be a little careful stating such thingsā¦ especially when Ballen was much more on the ball than you were.
Yep, lifestyle and conditioning can be a big part of what constitutes "good shape"ā¦ and I get what you're saying hereā¦ but again, I'd point out that "good shape" can be highly dependant on a range of other factors, including what you're in good shape for.
Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shapeā¦ overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak ofā¦ but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"ā¦ but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".
You're taking too black and white a position hereā¦ for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".
Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial artsā¦ you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardioā¦ and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we doā¦ we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about itā¦ the rest of the time is focused on learning the artā¦ which is technical executionā¦ aiming to minimise the strength needed.
Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?
My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitnessā¦ I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniquesā¦ and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they areā¦ but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relativeā¦
Hmmā¦ not really a feature of any of my sessionsā¦. which, again, is just another way of saying that whether or not you trust it, it's the reality.
As others have said, because he was preparing for a fightā¦ against trained, skilled, fit competitors... which is not the reality (especially not at an elite level) for many martial artists.
Close. You need skill and technique above strength.
Yesā¦ but, and here's the bit that'll get you, technique, strength, and fitness are only parts of the storyā¦ and honestly, the less important partsā¦
It can doā¦ but that's not the point of that trainingā¦ as well as it only really coming up if you train the methods in a particular way. In some Japanese arts, there is the concept of hyaku training (training a single movement or technique for 100 repetitions). And yeah, that can certainly require some endurance/cardio (but not necessarily the same as that needed to make it through 3 x 5 minute rounds in an MMA contest), that's not really what it's about (physically). Additionally, the repetition might be 5 times a day, for 10 yearsā¦ you don't need much fitness or endurance to do that.
Yep, this is where we're getting into different forms of "fitness"ā¦ of course, the gymnast's form of fitness isn't going to be universally required eitherā¦
Okay, let's get into thisā¦ earlier you asked why Royce Gracie was weight training prior to his fights (specifically for the first UFC events, which were multiple fights on a single night), to which people pointed out that he was training for that (sport event) fightā¦ now here, you're acknowledging the differences between such contexts and situationsā¦ however, I feel that you're still missing a couple of aspects here.
First off, let's look at why the preparation for each is differentā¦ starting with the sports event. As you noted, you get a fair amount of advance notice of an upcoming fight (in most cases). That allows you to do something that self defence training doesn'tā¦ give you specific preparation. You can focus your training specifically towards the upcoming eventā¦ training for a specific (known) opponent, at a specific (known) time, in a specific (known) place, with a specific (known) set of circumstances and rules, dealing with a specific (known) set of physical skills and tactics, and so on.
In this situation, it really is to your advantage to train specifically in any form that will give you an advantageā¦ which includes training up to the event to ensure you will be in peak condition when it occurs (fitness, cardio, strength, health etc).
Okay, so we looked at what is an average preparation for a sporting event, a known activity against a known opponent etcā¦ however, as you point out here, that's not what we're dealing with when looking at self defence training methods. So let's look at thatā¦
A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up timeā¦ there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant levelā¦ your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fightersā¦ you need recovery time.
Being prepared is one thingā¦ operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)ā¦ additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all timesā¦ and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.
Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scoutsā¦ but no, staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"ā¦ it is simply "relaxed awareness"ā¦ that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitnessā¦ but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.
Kindaā¦ it requires enough to maintain tensionā¦ and some do require more strength than thatā¦ but that's not really what K-man was saying, of courseā¦
Maybe, but not necessarily.
For some, sureā¦ but not for all.
Depends on the art, the person, and the classā¦
Not necessarilyā¦ again, it depends on the art, the person, the class, and so onā¦ none of this is definite, or accurate across the board.
Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the timeā¦
And how is that achieved with fitness?
No, there's no "lowering of the bar" thereā¦ and who on earth says we're going up against "world class athletes"? Or even want to? That is so far from the application of my training that you might as well talk about what I'd need to consider to apply it on Marsā¦
Again, fitness is relativeā¦ and yeah, it can helpā¦ but you can be fit and not have it help your martial arts, or you can be a much better martial artist without any real emphasis on fitnessā¦
No, you really can't.
That's a sports mentalityā¦ I mean, I agree in principle, but there are a number of ways of achieving thatā¦
Tactically, absolutely I am. If you're interested in what I mean by that, check out Geoff Thompson's 3 Second Fighterā¦
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
ok so training for a three second fight against a non athletic guy. Is lowering the expectation of your martial arts training. Rather than training for a long fight against an athlete.
i don't have an issue with lowering the bar. We are all more than martial artists. I have a low bar in comparison to guys who fight professionally. But i also don't need to justify myself when they clean my clock.
if they are fitter,stronger,train harder and for longer they will become more technically proficient than myself who does not.
so we go back to that mile. He runs it i walk it. He gets to the end of that mile more quickly. He can now run back in the time it takes for me to finish mine. At the end of the year he is better at covering that mile than me.
you are correct it is a sport fighting methodology. And that is because sport fighting is hard.
Actually the sport fighting is easy....it's the training that is hard.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Geoff Thompson writer - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
just looked up Geoff Thompson. Is that accurate. And if so are we ignoring a huge leaning towards sports methodology for one easy point about 3 second fights?
just looked up Geoff Thompson. Is that accurate. And if so are we ignoring a huge leaning towards sports methodology for one easy point about 3 second fights?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
i understand where you are coming from with that. Train hard fight easy. But it is not really accurate in this context. The fight is hard the training is harder.
i had a mate of mine who fought a war against a guy who was better than him by a few degrees. But held on and lost by points.
he said that was pretty hard.
i have a terribly biased video of that on youtube.
What context? You said sport fighting if you meant something else you should say what you mean.
'Biased' video?
'Fought a war' sounds like commentator speak when they are hyping a fighter or fight up.
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