My own MA...
- Thread starter fenglong
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fenglong
Green Belt
I am totally aware of all these problems, please keep in mind there is more behind me than I write on a forum.
It may be a normal phenomenon that knowledge in its pure form is invisible. =p
Believe me, I made a lot of experience and I am still making them.
The difference between me and some other people may be that I make experience more intensively, as my brain is constantly analyzing everything.
People keep telling me "stop thinking". That, honestly, is the most difficult part for me, especially when I meditate.
I agree, my philosophy is the storm and I highly base everything on it.
Yet, you must agree, creative feedback may atleast stimulate you to think into unexpected directions and you may learn something from it or look at things from a new perspective.
In the end, of course everything goes through my filter, I won't use ideas from someone simply because they told me to...(one of the reasons I quit learning from "masters").
A person telling me to make a choreography would most likely make me think about the psychological effect of "overwhelming" or "impressives" moves/actions in a real combat situation. Although, in the end, I will stick to whatever feels truely wind in my opinion.
Exactly, that is the issue of creating with intentions I mentioned in an earlier post.
Fortunately, I do not rely on being effective but on keeping the spirit of the storms.
I am happiest, the closer I can get to what storms mean and feel like to me.
Then again, effectiveness has automatically come with that strategy, unlike my first 1 year where I kept worrying and focusing on effectiveness, which not only tied me up inside a neverending spinning wheel of effectivity problems, but also brought me further and further away from my original goal, living for the spirit of storms.
As for the creativity part, like with everything in life, you need to find the right balance. I often had to remind myself to stick to the wind and not overdo the creativity.
But after a while, the more I get used to a certain flow, the less I struggle with such problems.
I agree and disagree. Everything is relative, even a blank page is. There is nothing but white space on a blank page, but then again, only a blank page can be a blank page, not a human or a place.
By creating from the scratch, I mean exactly the opposite of what Xue Sheng keeps telling me to do, using a root MA.
Instead, my root is the storm.
When I began with creating my attacks I tried to put myself into the position of someone who has never executed or seen a punch in their life. Why do people punch the way they punch? In such a moment only 1 thing counts for me, the storm.
My punches go by the ideal of lightning, in order to figure what that is supposed to be like, I had to think and philosophize and research a while about lightnings.
Before I could get to my current version of lightning punching method, I had to find out that it needs to be done with wind aspects within.
My first few weeks of lightning punch practice ended up with the same results as all the regular punching practice methods I learned in all the external MAs I trained: long term tonicity increase, strength increase, loss of flexibility and speed. A tradeoff I do not want.
At last I managed to combine wind and lightning concepts in a way that allows me to increase my strength and even decrease my long term tonicity, thus making me faster and conserving my flexibility.
The rought concept of a lightning punch is to maximize speed and force within minimized time and position.
Yes, well, I am getting to the point where I really must try to make a video.
I have no local friends to assist me with equipment and presence, my daily routine looks like that of any other obsessed artist. No cash, little food and sleep and constantly practicing, in my case inside my room or the shared garden.
Someday I should go and say hi to my former MA school mate Dema, he got his own school running with his son. http://www.meister-dema.de.tl/Bilder.htm (pictures can be found under "Bilder" in the left column.)
I guess I should be able to get to
OP
OP
fenglong
Green Belt
@Himura Kenshin, 72ronin
As I said, my root, like the vast collection of developed techniques in Aiki Ninjutsu or the Taoism, specifically the Xingyi in Bagua, is the storm.
Basicly like... meditating and philosophizing about the storms, trying to become one with them until your moves adapt.
That is easierly done when there are no preset, second nature concepts and moves occupying your reflexes.
As I said, my root, like the vast collection of developed techniques in Aiki Ninjutsu or the Taoism, specifically the Xingyi in Bagua, is the storm.
Basicly like... meditating and philosophizing about the storms, trying to become one with them until your moves adapt.
That is easierly done when there are no preset, second nature concepts and moves occupying your reflexes.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
good post, and another way to express it is: nothing is ever created in a vacuum. Nobody ever built a martial art from nothing. Every art came from something else, the progenitors all had some form of training in SOMETHING before they created something else. And that new thing usually has a lot in common with the first thing. Ain't nuthin wrong with that.
You've mentioned several times that your system is based on "the elements" but you've ducked it every time you were asked to explain what you mean by this.
What elemental system are you deriving your principles from? You've talked about "wind" and "lightning." How many elements do you use? Which of them? How do they relate? For example, Stephen Hayes really played up one elemental model to describe his understanding and development of ninjutsu. Earth, air, water, fire, and void each describe underlying emotional states as well as principles of movement and reaction. How does your system compare?
What elemental system are you deriving your principles from? You've talked about "wind" and "lightning." How many elements do you use? Which of them? How do they relate? For example, Stephen Hayes really played up one elemental model to describe his understanding and development of ninjutsu. Earth, air, water, fire, and void each describe underlying emotional states as well as principles of movement and reaction. How does your system compare?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm. Okay, I'll be blunter.
The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.
When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?
I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.
1: What is the power source your art uses?
2: What is the primary angle used?
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
That should be enough for now.
The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.
When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?
I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.
1: What is the power source your art uses?
2: What is the primary angle used?
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
That should be enough for now.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
That's part of it, but that's more about breaking rhythms. Not sure how much I want to put here until Fenglong answers, as understanding what seperates out one arts rhythm from another is an important thing if you're going to create one.... but for a hint, look to each and every Koto Ryu defence against a strike, and contrast it with their defences against grabbing attacks. Hopefully I can add more later.....
OP
OP
fenglong
Green Belt
When I see such stuff I'm totally not surprised most people don't manage to develop their own styles even when they try...
Well I'll add that especially the hybrid systems, that many systems may not include the items you mentioned...
I have a few questions:
1) what 'power source' are you referring to?
2) What would be your criteria for creating a new Martial Arts system? or method?
I'll agree though, most of those points you mentioned are what create a new system, but that's only half...
Fenglong,
I think what you have to understand about creating your own style, is that it is a process in itself, you really can't just say "oh I'm gonna create my style and here it is". It takes crafting, Art, processing, and being able to put the pieces together.
Truth be told, not everyone can nor should develop their own styles... While I did, I have to say it was a big mistake, and while It is a system in itself, it wasn't no joy ride.... Crafting a style takes years of experience, putting pieces together, trying to mold, shape, bend, and create a different "method" of the Arts... Creating a new system, isn't just a matter of slapping 'this' and 'that' together. It's a huge process!!
Rhythm is important! But the temple of an Art itself is even more vital... Most if not all the Arts in some way, shape, or form share a common rhythm.... Also you have to look at each art as a leaf off of a tree, they all (no matter where or what they come from) all evolve from the basic same roots.
I'd also add that not every system has a 'rhythm'. If your talking specific defense, not every system has one!
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I would say that the hybrid systems actually do have these things, but not codified into the system itself.... it's typically inherrant in the "founder", a natural understanding that they may not be able to explain themselves, or even pass on (which is why the systems don't tend to work for other people so well). But, realistically, the above aspects are necessary, if they're not present, there is no art.
I'm not refering to any particular "power source", I'm asking Fenglong what the power source used in his "storm" system is. Again, there needs to be a single, congruent power source, otherwise there's nothing for the art to be based on. I'm not going to give examples until I give Fenglong another chance to show that he may actually have some understanding of what he's doing.
Firstly, an understanding of what makes something a martial art in the first place, what makes one unique from another, then a reason for the new art to be made (and "because I wanted a cool looking set of moves for a movie" is actually fine.... provided it is understood that that makes it choreography, not a martial art). Finally, some basis in reality, a method of testing, or some established prior experience which forms the basis to the new art (most "new" martial arts are simply adaptations of existing ones, which is why I was pointing out that "from scratch" is not the way these things happen).
Oh, I know, this was a gentle introduction for Fenglong to gain some credibility for these concepts and ideas. I could really go into a lot of depth, but frankly don't think it's quite warranted yet.
Hmm, to be honest I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "the temple of an Art" there....
As for the rest, it can be read a few different ways, so I'll cover the ones that I seem to be saying here. If you are saying that pretty much all martial arts have their own inherrant rhythm (for that individual system itself), or small group of rhythms, then agreed. That was kinda my point. If, however, you are saying that pretty much all martial arts share the same rhythms, then no they don't. That is again missing some understanding of what makes a martial art distinct and unique amongst the other systems.
When it comes to looking at each as being a "leaf of a tree", and all martial arts coming from the same "root", uh, no. It's more like each art is it's own unique tree, with a primary root system (the philosophy which dictates the rest of the tree), it's own main trunk (the core strategy or strategies of the system), a range of branches, few or many (different tactics, approaches, ranges, weaponry etc), and then the leaves, trees, and fruits (the individual techniques). And each "tree" can and does exist independantly of many of the other trees (which is the real distinction between the two metaphors). There really is no connection between French Savatte and Japanese Kenjutsu (say, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu).
No, I'm not talking specific defences, I'm talking about the rhythms of the art itself. They are a great part what makes the art "work", or not. And each art will have it's own rhythm, or range of rhythms. If it doens't, then it is missing a huge aspect that makes it a martial art.
Recently (in a now-locked thread), there was a poster putting forth some training manuals of his, frankly, fraudulant teachers, with the reasoning that just because the training manuals included a hip throw (very badly done, with little understanding of the mechanics, how to do it properly or safely, how to use it, how to enter, and far more), and because that throw was used by other, legitimate martial arts as part of their rhythms and methods, that made his "art" genuine and valuable! Frankly, he got lost in the idea that a martial art is just a collection of techniques, when things such as rhythms dictate how to use those techniques, and thereby make it a martial art, hence my including that in the list of questions.
Frankly, when I see stuff such as your postings, I'm totally not surprised when people think they can just "create" a martial art despite not having the first understanding of what that would entail. Would you care to prove me wrong and answer the, frankly, incredibly simple and elementary questions I posed? If not, the only conclusion I can come to is that you have no answers, which means that it is not in any way a martial art. It really is simple as that.
OP
OP
fenglong
Green Belt
Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.
- Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.
- Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
2: What is the primary angle used?
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"
I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.
Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.
- Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.
- Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
2: What is the primary angle used?
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"
I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.
Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Fenglong, I don't see how what Chris is expecting is akin to "creating a super powered cartoon hero" or what "hocus-pocus" you are referring to.
Chris, now that fenglong has replied could you explain a bit what you mean by rythm? I was looking at koto ryu kata and still am not quite sure what I should be looking for exactly. Perhaps I am thinking in different terms than you are?
Chris, now that fenglong has replied could you explain a bit what you mean by rythm? I was looking at koto ryu kata and still am not quite sure what I should be looking for exactly. Perhaps I am thinking in different terms than you are?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'd say we've indulged your fantasy long enough.
1: What is the power source your art uses? - Gun Powder and then I would have to say one or both of the follow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy
and
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_human_body_get_it's_energy
2: What is the primary angle used? 180 Down the sites?
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)? Sensitive, You sens the danger you sense the trigger and you sense the feedback or report of the firearm.
4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
Current surroundings, yet must be aware of not hitting non targets
5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
Two center mass?
6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
1-2, ... 1
7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
Conceal, stable platforms
8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
Survive
*********
Seriously, Chris I like your questions, and was going to create a separate thread just to ask the questions of what people think about their own arts, but I see your point of waiting and seeing what type of reply you get first. So please excuse my poor attempt and serious, but humor for my replies.
Thanks
Rayban
Green Belt
Everyone here is exactly who you want to talk to about this, frankly, warped fantasy of yours.
Please elaborate on said skills? I'm not entirely convinced you have the correct attitude for being in various arts for 15 years.
How can you create something with out a list of requirements or steps to complete? Even doodling in crayon requires this, though on a very subconscious level for any "average" person.
I think you are confusing reality and fantasy frankly.
Even though this has been said before many many times, I will sum up every response you have had so far.
A.) You can't start from scratch.
B.) MA are born out of a need. One that you don't have. You have a Fantasy that you want.
C.) You need a strategy for everything else to flow from. Without a clearly defined strategy you have choreography, not MA.
D.) Just because something sounds cool, doesn't mean it will make any practical sense using it as a pseudo-strategy at best. (realistically the storm theme sounds more like a cartoon than anything else that has existed on this thread ever).
E.) To understand MA you must train in a MA from (as Chris Parker says) the roots to the leaves.
This is by no means a complete list of requirements to form your own art, but I think giving you such a list is a waste of time and effort. That and you can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Ironically, Chris is not the one going on about Fantasy stuff but asking very relevant questions.
A martial art is the physical expression of underlying concepts, right? It teaches to react in a given manner because that is tactically most sound for the context in which the art was created. And all the content of the art should follow from those same concepts.
So if we look at question number 1: power source. In some JMA, power is generated from the feet and legs pushing on the floor in a certain direction. in TKD otoh, much power is generated by rotation of the body. A roundhouse kick has a completely different power generation than a forward kick or punch.
point 2, the primary angle: in ninpo for example, it is common to move at a 45 degree angle relative to the line of attack, both in evasion and countering. In some forms of karate and jujutsu and possibly kickboxing, it is common to move straight ahead and back in a direct line.
point 3 classification: many MA are built around a core concept. For (most)TKD that is around kicking. For judo it is grappling, for most modern jujutsu or MMA it is unarmed combat, for classical systems it is armed and unarmed combat, etc. And for each case there are limitations and benefits as a result.
These points are fairly important is you want to create your own MA. And you haven't even thought of them. how can you create a martial art if you have not yet decided what type of body movement it is built around, or what angling is best suited, or whether you build it around armed use or not. Because each of these things will have an important impact in the techniques. For example, some things in judo do not makes sense if you anticipate weapons use. Much in sports TKD does not make sense from a self defense pov, etc.
If you don't think about these things, then how are you going to create an MA?
They're pretty legitimate questions.
How is your art going to generate power? Will it be using the whole body, using rotational energy, linear striking, or what?
Will you work from inside or outside positions? What will your primary weapons be? Strikes with hands or feet? Grappling or locking? Or some of each?
