My own MA...

[fenglong]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenglong
An example: My throwing techniques are based on the element wind. More specifically, on horizontal and vertical movements of the wind, such as circulations.

could you give some detail about what you are talking about here? Sounds like you have a concept in your head that must translate into physical technique somehow, but for the rest of us who are not privy to your thoughts, it would be helpful for some detailed explanation.

Well, instead of using a certain animal or isolated scientific findings as guide, I try to completely follow the "path of the storms".
In ancient China, certain people spent their entire life mastering the style of a certain animal, which is in my opinion the only way to really master a style.
But how exactly do you go about mastering a certain style? You need to realize and experience the spirit of the style.

Whether the spirit of praying mantis in Tanglang Quan or the spirit of enduring in Kyokushin, I believe to really master a MA you need to follow the spirit of it.

The spirit of my style is the storm. Simply because I am obsessed with storms since my childhood and whenever I get the chance to stand inside a storm or thunderstorm, I can feel again what I live for.

Now what appeals me is the challenge of converting the concepts, the spirit of certain nature forces into exercisable methods of practice. I guess that already attracted those who founded animal styles? ...

To get back to my wind throwing techniques: I try to convert the unpredigtable circulating behavior of wind circulations into stable, yet highly flexible, effective and overwhelming techniques.
Throws, joint work, dodges, deflections etc...

Quote:
I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside my MA.
I will ask, if you are not convinced that your method would be the best at least for yourself, if not objectively, then is there a point in creating something new? New is good if it is an improvement over the old, at least for yourself. New for the sake of new, without some real benefit from the change, makes people ask why it is necessary?

I am totally convinced about my method and it is definitely the best style for myself.
Just ain't going to say it is better than other styles because even though I try to make it the best possible, my primary goal is simply advancing myself and being happy with the way I do it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

China also used elements not just animals and a storm can be classified in elements in China

 

[fenglong]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenglong
That is exactly what I DON'T want to do.
What I do is first set myself free from existing patterns so that I can then do seemingly normal/basic things from different perspectives.
Or to keep it simple, in order to find my way into an elemental MA, I need to set myself free from other concepts.

That's more mindset than physical description. Watch "Needle Through Brick" on Hulu. There's an old Southern Praying Mantis guy there that says simply (paraphrasing) that his hands move on their own. He doesn't think or plan or anything like that. They move on their own accord where needed. That's mindset from focused practice. I don't believe that can be forced into a physical training regimen to get there. You have to spend the time focusing on something to let it become its own. IMHO anyway, for what that's worth.

I agree. There is always the difficult splits between doing something in a certain way because of a certain intention and doing it in its own natural way by practicing completely free of intentions.
I often caught myself putting too much energy into a certain intention and completely failing to notice and act by the nature of things.

Fortunately my wind philosophy helps me there.
"Disengage, clarify, be Wind."
Which means that you need to get rid of the bonds of tension and meaningless wishes, let go all the stagnating things on your mind and once you can see your inside clear as air, you will entirely flow like wind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenglong
I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside my MA.

Of course they do, but you might want to look around & see if you're not doing something that is already around, tried & proven, before shouting "EUREKA". There's only so many ways of doing "X" to somebody.

I'm not saying I'm doing something new. I was looking for styles related to concepts of nature forces for years. I even found some styles related to wind but in the end I also go my own way to fully understand each single move, action and detail.

Also, it is just about storms, you know? Some like storms, some don't.
The reason I am here is to find people I can chat about my style with in order to see things from different perspectives, compare experiences and in the end enhance my methods.

 

[fenglong]

...
I was flying toward the mat one time, after getting caught in a pretty high amplitude fireman's carry. It was EXACTLY like being caught up in the current of a tornado. Elemental, to say the least.

...

Speaking about flying... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8IITzh0WpA&feature=related
2:40 is my favorite move. ^^

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, instead of using a certain animal or isolated scientific findings as guide, I try to completely follow the "path of the storms".
In ancient China, certain people spent their entire life mastering the style of a certain animal, which is in my opinion the only way to really master a style.
But how exactly do you go about mastering a certain style? You need to realize and experience the spirit of the style.

Whether the spirit of praying mantis in Tanglang Quan or the spirit of enduring in Kyokushin, I believe to really master a MA you need to follow the spirit of it.

The spirit of my style is the storm. Simply because I am obsessed with storms since my childhood and whenever I get the chance to stand inside a storm or thunderstorm, I can feel again what I live for.

Now what appeals me is the challenge of converting the concepts, the spirit of certain nature forces into exercisable methods of practice. I guess that already attracted those who founded animal styles? ...

To get back to my wind throwing techniques: I try to convert the unpredigtable circulating behavior of wind circulations into stable, yet highly flexible, effective and overwhelming techniques.
Throws, joint work, dodges, deflections etc...

I am a follower of an animal style myself, and I know how the foundation of my method works, how it translates into a physical technique, and what the ultimate goal of our training is. What I believe most people misunderstand about animal styles is that the intent is NOT to fight in a stylized "animal" way. Rather, the animal techniques are a methodology used in training that brings us to being able to deliver a technique in a certain manner. In short, the ultimate goal is to have no recognizable form at all when we throw a technique, and the animal method brings us there, if it is properly understood.

At least this is the way it is in the method that I study.

As for the rest, could you describe a specific throwing technique, and explain how the concept of wind or storm drives the technique?

I am totally convinced about my method and it is definitely the best style for myself.
Just ain't going to say it is better than other styles because even though I try to make it the best possible, my primary goal is simply advancing myself and being happy with the way I do it.

if it's the best for you, then it's a good thing, for you.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Your circular wind like movments remind me aikido. Perhaps there is some lessons there to incorporate into what you are considering.

Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, and even Miyamoto Musashi observed what other people were doing to get an idea of how to shape their approaches.

 

[fenglong]

I am a follower of an animal style myself, and I know how the foundation of my method works, how it translates into a physical technique, and what the ultimate goal of our training is. What I believe most people misunderstand about animal styles is that the intent is NOT to fight in a stylized "animal" way. Rather, the animal techniques are a methodology used in training that brings us to being able to deliver a technique in a certain manner. In short, the ultimate goal is to have no recognizable form at all when we throw a technique, and the animal method brings us there, if it is properly understood.

At least this is the way it is in the method that I study.

Hm I see. The Hong Quan we practiced was a collection of animal forms as well and I rather learned to focus on the advantages of each animal. For example the ferocity in the tiger form, the unpredictability in the snake form and so on.
But I must admit I never spent as much time into figuring the spirit of those forms as I do with the storm style, or as other people may do.

As for the rest, could you describe a specific throwing technique, and explain how the concept of wind or storm drives the technique?

In my wind techniques you focus on a certain Qigong/visualization methods which ensures flowing breathing and movements. The idea is to prevent cramping of any kind, whether physical or mental.

I will try to explain 2 throws, they may look pretty much as in Aikido or Hwarangdo, yet the method of execution is wind-specific.

You may be able to get it done the way it is meant when you do it slowly and flowing.




Throw against: Straight right hand punch with right foot infront.

Throw number 1:

1 You begin in a an everyday life posture, no special combat stance.
2 Pick up your left hand and left foot and the same time. The left arm slightly bent, the foot keeps contact to the ground, you will use it to slide.
3 Your left hand moves inwards and the left arm bends further to maximize the left/right control by adding another direction, towards your face.
4 Now your left foot slides towards the left, together with your torso/head to dodge the punch. At same time your right arm goes up in the center position of your body, slightly bent.
5 As the left foot arrives at its position, not too far away so you can hold contact to the opponent, the right back of your hand moves to the attacking arm, around ellboy height of the attacking arm, to support the deflection action of the left hand.
6 When straightening your right arm and moving it to the right across the attacking arm, your right foot and weight move towards the enemy so that you can execute an inner knife hand attack to the chin, throat or simply hook under the chin.
7 In this moment you place your right foot behind the right or left foot of the attacker and apply a hip throw to the left.


Throw number 2:

1-5 as in number 1

6 Your entire body turns to the right to deflect and abuse the attacking force, right arm following the direction of the attacking force, right foot moving a step or 2 behind your left foot facing the attacking arm you can now grab the wrist area with your right hand and place your left hand on the elbow of the attacking arm.
7 Apply a lock by pressing your left hand onto the ellbow and pulling with your right arm towards yourself. Use your circulation force to throw him by turning yourself until you are facing the direction your opponent is facing, set down your right foot in a wider stance to apply enough leverage to throw your opponent out of balance.
8 Push him to the ground with your elbow lock.



Opposed to other methods, when being thrown you may still depend on physical rules but the constant flow that has become second nature to you will ensure a constantly minimized tonicity and maximized body control under any circumstance.
Preventing automated cramping in situations when your body notices the sudden lack of balance due to getting thrown, this method should still allow you to react completely free and independent from instincts, allowing you to do counter moves.

 

[fenglong]

Your circular wind like movments remind me aikido. Perhaps there is some lessons there to incorporate into what you are considering.

Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, and even Miyamoto Musashi observed what other people were doing to get an idea of how to shape their approaches.

Yes, I watch a lot of videos to find inspiration.
But it happened the other way around as well. I found a lot of styles which use similar moves as the ones I already use in my own style.

There is always the topic of copycating, if not in conversations then atleast on my mind as I notice similarities between the moves I come up with and the moves I have seen somewhere.

Nevertheless, practicing by rules of storms I just use things that flow the right way and the storm Qigong makes my moves what they are meant to be, not just physical copies.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hm I see. The Hong Quan we practiced was a collection of animal forms as well and I rather learned to focus on the advantages of each animal. For example the ferocity in the tiger form, the unpredictability in the snake form and so on.
But I must admit I never spent as much time into figuring the spirit of those forms as I do with the storm style, or as other people may do.

I can only speak for what I am doing and my understanding of it. I cannot speak for others.

In my wind techniques you focus on a certain Qigong/visualization methods which ensures flowing breathing and movements. The idea is to prevent cramping of any kind, whether physical or mental.

I will try to explain 2 throws, they may look pretty much as in Aikido or Hwarangdo, yet the method of execution is wind-specific.

You may be able to get it done the way it is meant when you do it slowly and flowing.




Throw against: Straight right hand punch with right foot infront.

Throw number 1:

1 You begin in a an everyday life posture, no special combat stance.
2 Pick up your left hand and left foot and the same time. The left arm slightly bent, the foot keeps contact to the ground, you will use it to slide.
3 Your left hand moves inwards and the left arm bends further to maximize the left/right control by adding another direction, towards your face.
4 Now your left foot slides towards the left, together with your torso/head to dodge the punch. At same time your right arm goes up in the center position of your body, slightly bent.
5 As the left foot arrives at its position, not too far away so you can hold contact to the opponent, the right back of your hand moves to the attacking arm, around ellboy height of the attacking arm, to support the deflection action of the left hand.
6 When straightening your right arm and moving it to the right across the attacking arm, your right foot and weight move towards the enemy so that you can execute an inner knife hand attack to the chin, throat or simply hook under the chin.
7 In this moment you place your right foot behind the right or left foot of the attacker and apply a hip throw to the left.


Throw number 2:

1-5 as in number 1

6 Your entire body turns to the right to deflect and abuse the attacking force, right arm following the direction of the attacking force, right foot moving a step or 2 behind your left foot facing the attacking arm you can now grab the wrist area with your right hand and place your left hand on the elbow of the attacking arm.
7 Apply a lock by pressing your left hand onto the ellbow and pulling with your right arm towards yourself. Use your circulation force to throw him by turning yourself until you are facing the direction your opponent is facing, set down your right foot in a wider stance to apply enough leverage to throw your opponent out of balance.
8 Push him to the ground with your elbow lock.



Opposed to other methods, when being thrown you may still depend on physical rules but the constant flow that has become second nature to you will ensure a constantly minimized tonicity and maximized body control under any circumstance.
Preventing automated cramping in situations when your body notices the sudden lack of balance due to getting thrown, this method should still allow you to react completely free and independent from instincts, allowing you to do counter moves.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time over this, but I still don't understand specifically what about these examples is "wind". I get the physical description (sort of, these are difficult in writing without being able to show the technique), but I don't see what makes it "wind".

thanks

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think that this is great. I've read dozens of threads started by people who are creating their own unique MA style, but they're mostly teenagers with delusions of grandeur. I can tell from your posts that you are a very serious martial artist who has studied extensively and can really add value to the MA community. I only hope that we (as a group) are open minded enough to really benefit from you.

I was flying toward the mat one time, after getting caught in a pretty high amplitude fireman's carry. It was EXACTLY like being caught up in the current of a tornado. Elemental, to say the least.

Anyway, i can tell that you're different because you're very specific about your credentials and you've traveled to China FOUR TIMES! That's awesome.

:asian:

 

[fenglong]

I can only speak for what I am doing and my understanding of it. I cannot speak for others.

Yea same here, it interesting to learn about different concepts.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time over this, but I still don't understand specifically what about these examples is "wind". I get the physical description (sort of, these are difficult in writing without being able to show the technique), but I don't see what makes it "wind".

The way moves are executed and the mental/energetic methods supporting them.
Learning from and utilizing the attributes of the wind in any possible way.
First of all, wind is a soft element, similar to the attributes of water being utilized by Taijiquan styles, wind moves are used to avoid and redirect attacks, but also exploit attacking forces or overwhelm the opponent.

I also use wind Qigong to fix tension, lower pain response and increase endurance/strength. Certain breathing and visualization techniques.

I can't tell what exactly happens inside my body when I use those techniques and why exactly they seem to work.
I have been practicing and testing them for about 2 years and I'm guessing they affect adrenaline output, but thats really just a guess.

 

[Indagator]

Good luck. The only other suggestion I could make to you here, based upon what I have read, would be to attend training in person with other styles rather than incorporate what you glean from video/film footage. The reason being that if you are present in person you can experience a transmission of the principles in a deeper manner than watching footage as well as opening up a larger conceptual dynamic in terms of what you are looking at doing.

Your approach is commendable - I myself adhere to certain principles which you have touched on here, specifically the concepts that each individuals interpretation of the truths inherent in any MA will be at least slightly unique to them. We travel many paths on the same journey, and no man's path is ever quite the same as anothers!

Good on you, anyway, you seem to take what you are doing seriously and have presented yourself with humility and a respectful attitude - these two factors alone should serve to separate you at least surfactorily from the "blowhards" and nonsense-men that crop up from time to time.

Enjoy the journey, dude!

 

[Indie12]

Well I wish you the best of luck.... It is not as easy as it seems, you need a solid base, and you need to have a direction in which you want to see your Art go, that and a handy dandy name always helps.

Be prepared for criticism, doubts, challenges, and questions. The hardship of "creating" and then having your own system is hard. (I know from personal experience)... It has to be unique, you could (and it does sound like this) that you have a hybrid system, which is what most of the "new founders of systems" are now doing. It's not as easy as most think, and you need some kind of philosophy, system, Art, and techniques to distinguish it from one Art to another.

But if you believe you can accomplish it and 'create' your own unique style and art, go for it! Long as you can stand opposition and challenges and your System can stand up to the challenges, by all means push forward!

My only true concern regarding this is you said you have only 15 years. Although you seem to have quite the list of training experience, years of experience are what will help when creating a system, although I will say from personal experience, through your art you gain experience and years!!

Sounds to me like you have a good plan, the challenge will be putting it together and sharing with the world!

I agree, Humility and Respect is what will make your Art stand out!!

Best of Luck to you!!

"The Journey is what brings us happiness, not the destination" Peaceful Warrior By Dan Millman

 

[mook jong man]

I too have explored the element of wind in my own martial arts journey.
There was one particular instance I remember that was quite frightening in its intensity and power .

It happened after eating these.

 

[72ronin]

It is said, that if you partake in a feast of eggs and beans, and certain other secret ingredients,
That you will attain the power to kill a man without physical contact, and im certain it carries the name of a wind attack...
Joking

I think your just in the process of.. melding together what you have learned over time. Perhaps kind of internalising it in a better way for you to act without thought or pre-conceived technique, and for you, it best melds with your wind reference.
The best way to really test/cement this, Is through strong resistance sparring in my opinion.

To addapt, change during technique is most important. Take the first technique you describe some posts back, in that scenario, if needed, before you commit the right foot deeply to throw, you could change to sweep with the left foot, instantly and smoothly.

Kind of a backup to the innitial technique. And i think you are touching on a way to understand this without thought process during sparring/resistance etc
Kind of like the ability to "change" in Bagua, or simply technique flow in some other systems. If it translates as moving like/with the wind or elements to you then thats great, you have found your way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

fenglong

I have been reading through all this and don’t get me wrong I do think you have the background to do what you are trying to do…kinda sorta.

You have the background but you appear to be trying real hard to break away from your root and that IMO is not going to get you anywhere and leave you spending the next several years just spinning your wheels. I personally feel that you would do better off the foundation that you have and not ripping it out and building a new one.

But this is only my opinion and I could be wrong.

Either way I wish you luck

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, I'm going to be rather blunt here.

One thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of people who talk about creating their own martial art have little to no idea of what actually makes something a martial art in the first place. Typically the person has some ideas (consciously thought out), but frankly there is no real understanding or knowledge backing anything up. And honestly, I see a lot of that here.

This comes from the very first post, where you ask for "creative" people for productive chat/exchange of ideas, and that is not something that should really have any part of creating a new art whatsoever. If you were looking for choreography, fine, but not a martial art. A martial art requires a guiding philosophy, and that is not something that can be consciously decided on, or discussed with a commitee. It has to be based in itself, really, and outside influence of the type mentioned can only take it further from what it is meant to be.

You mention that you are looking for "innovative answers", which again is not going to lead in the right direction. Innovative can be fine, even good, but looking specifically for it (which I'm taking from your phrasing about "creativity", "obsessive creativity", and so on) is again just the wrong approach. If it is effective, realistic, powerful, you'll most likely find that it isn't innovative, as it will have been discovered many years ago, centuries most likely, and if it is innovative, it probably isn't realistic or effective.

You then mention that you will be creating this art from scratch... again, not really possible. For one thing, anything you do will be based around the previous experiences you have had, so you can't start from scratch, and if you could, the only way to actually do that would be to go out and get into as many fights as possible within the confines or environments that you want to apply the system, and see what works. Anything other than that is purely fantasy.

There's a lot more here, but I don't want to overwhelm things.

To balance it out, though, you may have something, depending on how naturally you take to these things, and the depth of your previous study. Can you put together something on video so we can see what you are talking about, for example in the throwing examples you gave? I think I follow what you're talking about, but I'm not sure where the "wind" aspect is (like Flying Crane).

 

[fenglong]

For some reason it won't let me edit my own posts anymore.
There is a mistake in the Throw number 2, section 6: Instead of placing the right foot behind the left, you are supposed to describe a right circle with it.

 

[fenglong]

It is said, that if you partake in a feast of eggs and beans, and certain other secret ingredients,
That you will attain the power to kill a man without physical contact, and im certain it carries the name of a wind attack...
Joking

I think your just in the process of.. melding together what you have learned over time. Perhaps kind of internalising it in a better way for you to act without thought or pre-conceived technique, and for you, it best melds with your wind reference.
The best way to really test/cement this, Is through strong resistance sparring in my opinion.

To addapt, change during technique is most important. Take the first technique you describe some posts back, in that scenario, if needed, before you commit the right foot deeply to throw, you could change to sweep with the left foot, instantly and smoothly.

Kind of a backup to the innitial technique. And i think you are touching on a way to understand this without thought process during sparring/resistance etc
Kind of like the ability to "change" in Bagua, or simply technique flow in some other systems. If it translates as moving like/with the wind or elements to you then thats great, you have found your way.

I do not simply keep what I formerly learned. I use the experience I managed to gather but In order to actually come up with a technique based on wind attributes I must set myself free from formerly learned techniques.


The ability to instantly change direction is inherent to wind and an important aspect of my MA, yet one of the tougher ones to realize.
The biggest challenge seems to be to maximize flexibility without lowering solidness of the stances and power/leverage force of the techniques.
Although, I have also found a way to overcome this problem, by applying wind Qigong in the founding process. Without the right "windy feeling", a technique wont make it into my collection. But the maximization of flexibility in an effective and efficient frame will remain the most vital and most difficult to realize aspect I believe.

 

[Aiki Lee]

For some reason it won't let me edit my own posts anymore.
There is a mistake in the Throw number 2, section 6: Instead of placing the right foot behind the left, you are supposed to describe a right circle with it.

You can ony change the last post you made, and then I believe that also is time sensitive.

The storm imagery is kinda neat. I too like to watch storms, but like Chris said you need a martial philosophy that is different from what is currently available. I think it is unlikely anyone can start from scratch and not expect to just recreate the wheel, but you already have hundreds of years of material to work from so why not build off what you know like Xue Sheng said?

I think the way to develope "new" martial arts isn't to come up with something from scratch but to take existing approaches and find new ways to use them. That's what my art of aiki ninjutsu is. My teachers didn't start from scratch and "create" anything. They took different martial arts and saw how their principles and philosophies can be used together. The art is unique because the approach is different and specific skills are created as a result that are different from the schools our art originated from, but again, none of the skills themselves are actually new, just they way they are structured and taught.