Must everything be combat applicable??

[DeLamar.J]

But there is also a big difference between battlefield hand to hand and self-defence.

Sometimes you really don't want to hurt, let alone cripple or kill the other guy. Another thing many SD instructors forget.

And, that type of fighting will get you put right in jail, even if you had no other choice. And if you really had no other choice, you will spend time in jail until your trail or someone bails you out. Most courts love to give martial artists the shaft when they f someone up.

 

[Mark Weiser]

That is why the School if they do teach combat arts need to know the laws of the state in which the school is located and teach accordingly. Here in Kansas there are statues that govern Self Defense issues and Good Samartian Statues. In my School I teach the actual State Statues and give my students a copy of the neccessary codes.

 

[MJS]

That is why the School if they do teach combat arts need to know the laws of the state in which the school is located and teach accordingly. Here in Kansas there are statues that govern Self Defense issues and Good Samartian Statues. In my School I teach the actual State Statues and give my students a copy of the neccessary codes.

I agree. Unfortunately, I don't think that that's part of the instruction at many schools. However, it would be wise to teach it, due to the sue happy world that we live in today. I could just see it now. A student a "Joes Karate School" defends himself in a situation and the bad guy or thats guys family not only sues the student, but the inst. at the school as well, for damages done to the poor, innocent bad guy.

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

That is why the School if they do teach combat arts need to know the laws of the state in which the school is located and teach accordingly. Here in Kansas there are statues that govern Self Defense issues and Good Samartian Statues. In my School I teach the actual State Statues and give my students a copy of the neccessary codes.

Actually I am from Kansas.....could you let me know where I can get a copy of those laws?

 

[RRouuselot]

I didnt read what everyone wrote so I dont know if this was mentioned or not but. Martial Art means War art or Art of War. Bushido means way of the warrior.

Not to be rude but if you are going to comment on these boards you may want to do everyone a favor and have the courtesy to read what they have written on the thread before you reply……in doing so you may come to the painfully obvious conclusion that most of the folks that have replied before you most likely already know what you are posting.

Also if you look in the dictionary you will see martial= military and not necessarily “war”. You also mentioned Bushido…….could you tell us you thoughts on Inazo Nitobe’s book on Bushido?

Here is an interesting link to it http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/bsd/

 

[tsunami]

Originally Posted by DeLamar.J
Traditional martial arts were not so much about fighting as some of the other more modern styles are. Some people today are just looking for combat effectiveness only, not discipline, values, and a good attitude. Those are the things that traditional training gives you, people who just want to learn how to hurt people frown on the more traditional type of training because there are things done to build character and discipline, that are not combat applicable, so they feel those things are a waste of time.

I would recommend reading some history books. I belive that combat arts were always for just that. The kinder form of the arts came after hostilities cooled off. (Atleat in japan) The arts were then turned into martal ways (do) as in Karate-do, Akido, Judo. The aim of these arts were all the high and lofty goals. In fudal times, killer skills were king along with skills such as river fording, horse riding and even swimming among many others. Now that is what I call mixed martial arts.
Respectfully, George.


A man is like steel. If he looses his temper, he looses his worth.

 

[Marginal]

Anyone ever get the sense that the self-development angle and the ohter aspects that come parceled with a lot of MA's past the fighting techniques were designed as a survival tool/marketing hook? Cant' say you're training up a bunch of invincible thugs, but if you're "cultivating a true warrior" the fact you're teaching someone to squish someone else's nose flat with some technique or another becomes socially acceptable in circles it otherwise would not.

 

[loki09789]

Anyone ever get the sense that the self-development angle and the ohter aspects that come parceled with a lot of MA's past the fighting techniques were designed as a survival tool/marketing hook? Cant' say you're training up a bunch of invincible thugs, but if you're "cultivating a true warrior" the fact you're teaching someone to squish someone else's nose flat with some technique or another becomes socially acceptable in circles it otherwise would not.

Salesmanship and basically a more brutal and antiquated version of the values training, moral fiber toughening that organizations with a 'niche' or 'theme' will use to promote, educate and enhance all the time.

Camping and woodscraft for Boy/girl scout organizations are ways of developing character, cooperation, leadership.....

"Explorer" or "Junior police cadet" or what ever programs all link a philosophical value to the training in the hopes that they are enstilling values along with the skills.

Most of the "DO" or philosophical developments in martial arts practices are because IMO:

1. They were the preservation of the 'way of the warrior' (plug in the appropriate cultural context) once that particular 'way' had either become outdated or unnecessary because of peace.

In some cases, the motive might simply have been the ancient equivalent of the "wanna be ranches" that former soldiers, cowboys, experts in any field (that has a mystic/heroic status around it) to earn a living based on your skills and experience when they no longer are useful (personally - retirement or culturally - peace/social change) in their original context. The Buffalo Bill Wild West Show comes to mind. The "Ranger/survival school" type places, the "Dude Ranch/Cowboy U" resorts.... all fun and entertaining and educational. BUT they are being run by people with 'former' status who have found a way to earn a living off of those skills once they are too old, injured or what ever to keep doing it OR the skills/status are no longer the 'cutting edge' approach and they have been phased out because of progress or change.

2. ALL of the other activities that were part of a soldier/fighter/warriors daily routine that would have encouraged those 'character traits/values' were not practical and had to be embodied or symbolized in the rituals of 'martial arts practice.'

I mean realistically, the idea that 'martial arts is superior to modern soldier training' is bunk. I am pretty sure that if M16's and Artillery was available (and was in some fashion in feudal Japan during certain periods) that they would have found a way to assymilate those tools into their warrior tradition.

Native American warriors used Henry repeaters and other technologically superior weapons (relative to the Cav issue rifle) to defeat Custer without any hesitation.

Anachronisms and 'tradition' becomes more important when you are trying to preserve something more than you are trying to apply something.

I can teach my son the same values and responsibility of a martial arts class just by taking him out and teaching him to shoot, hunt, fish and play hockey....wait I do that. If it wasn't so much like joining a 'gun cult' I would even join the NRA.

When Rick gets to High School he wants to join the shooting team and you can damn sure bet that the coach in a public school that is dealing with firearms is teaching values, responsibility and measuring temperment and maturity every second (post Columbine paranoia). If that stuff isn't being emphasized, I will complain and get Rick out of that program.

The 'package' may change but the 'package' is just the expression of the philosophy, IT isn't as important as the IDEA that drives the structure if the point is 'character/value' training. Please don't read this as "Paul thinks trad arts aren't practical or real world.' I am talking about what the driving goal, the primary purpose of the program is not the quality, or lack, of the art form.

Some folks just decide that they want to focus on application training/self defense. That doesn't mean training without values or moral decision making, it just means that the primary goal is application... the other stuff all serves the purpose of making that primary goal possible to attain.

 

[OC Kid]

Not to be rude but if you are going to comment on these boards you may want to do everyone a favor and have the courtesy to read what they have written on the thread before you reply……in doing so you may come to the painfully obvious conclusion that most of the folks that have replied before you most likely already know what you are posting.

Also if you look in the dictionary you will see martial= military and not necessarily “war”. You also mentioned Bushido…….could you tell us you thoughts on Inazo Nitobe’s book on Bushido?

Here is an interesting link to it http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/bsd/

So Oh master thank you from coming down from the mountain and enlightening me. So "martial" has nothing to do with war. So the greek God of war ,Mars from whom we get the word martial has nothing with war. So the work "Bushi" doesnt mean "warrior" and "do" doent mean way. So the combination "Bushi-do" doesnt mean warrior way or way of the warrior.

please enlighten me oh master. I guess my 20 plus years of training were for naught. Now that your here I can get trained in a real art. Where do I begin. tell where the waterfall is I can meditate day and night and bask in your knowledge....

heres a link grasshopper
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/bushido/bindex.html

ill find more if you like

someone kick your dog this morning or something

 

[BlackCatBonz]

#1. i think its funny when people suggest that all of the etiquette "stuff" that goes along with the traditional martial arts is not combat applicable......i think there is something to be said for discipline...heck even lil organizations like the army and marines and navy have it.
as for pure self defense.......ask yourself what that means to you.
does it mean you will do whatever it takes to make it out of a situation alive? it does for me.....laws be damned. that doesnt mean im running around fighting with everyone that looks at me sideways......but, if i have to defend my family, i will go to any lengths neccasary for their protection.
in short, as far as my martial training is concerned, its all combat applicable

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

Martial:

adj 1: (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing" [syn: soldierly, soldierlike, warriorlike] 2: suggesting war or military life [syn: warlike] 3: of or relating to the armed forces; "martial law" [syn: martial(a)]



I would be more than happy to enlighten you.....…..



Martial would seem to be an adjective and war seems to be a noun.



war = n.

1. 1. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
   2. The period of such conflict.

Here is what I wrote…..



Also if you look in the dictionary you will see martial= military and not necessarily “war”. You also mentioned Bushido…….could you tell us you thoughts on Inazo Nitobe’s book on Bushido?



---------------------------------------------------------



Here is what you ***umed I meant…….



So Oh master thank you from coming down from the mountain and enlightening me. So 1)"martial" has nothing to do with war. So the greek God of war ,Mars from whom we get the word martial has nothing with war. 2)So the work "Bushi" doesnt mean "warrior" and "do" doent mean way. So the combination "Bushi-do" doesnt mean warrior way or way of the warrior.





3)please enlighten me oh master. 4)I guess my 20 plus years of training were for naught. Now that your here I can get trained in a real art. Where do I begin. 5)tell where the waterfall is I can meditate day and night and bask in your knowledge....



--------------------------------------------------







1) I never said it "had nothing to do with war".....



2) I think you mean "word" and not "work"....right??? Either way I asked for an opinion on a book and not a definition.



3) Gladly

4) I guess so.

5) Sure, go to any public MEN's room......someone will eventually come along and deliver the waterfall you seek.:roflmao:

Like I said before....you may want to actually read a post/thread before responding to it.

The “pearls of wisdom” you have tried imparting to us in your first post, although inaccurate by your definition, are tertiary and quite common knowledge to most of the folks here and seem redundant at best.




Now if you would care to discuss the meaning of those words in Japanese I would be more than happy to "enlighten" you again...........

 

[RRouuselot]

heres a link grasshopper
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/bushido/bindex.html

I see that link is sponsored by Mastushita/Panasonic.......I actually used to teach at their "think tank" called Matsushita Seikei Juku several years ago.
Ever heard of it?????


Here i s a link:

http://www.mskj.or.jp/english/message_02.html

The Matsushita Institute of Government and Management (Sei-Kei Juku) was established in 1979 by Konosuke Matsushita, the founder of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. for the purpose of developing and promoting leadership for the coming 21st century. Discouraged and constrained by conventional models and means of political reform, Mr. Matsushita conceived the MIGM to combat the vanity and mediocrity of 20th century leadership through a long-term strategy, which entailed an avant-garde approach to education, designed to foster a more profound change for Japan and her relationship to the world. The graduate level study is a three-year graduate-level program, bridging academic enrichment with practical work experiences. The Sei-Kei Juku creates a unique learning universe by granting its students autonomy and authority in developing the thematic fortes of their curriculum. The exploration of issues and challenges is a holistic pursuit, inclusive of diversified physical and field experiences. The essence of MIGM is a Jeffersonian extension of citizenship education, preparing a new breed of leaders for public service.

 

[OC Kid]

Wow Oh one with the mountain who resides under the golden waterfall...Your link had nothing to do with the definition of Bushido as given by the link I posted.
To answer your questions. No I havent read the book. However I have heard of Matsushita/Panasonic.
Martial:

"adj 1: (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing" [syn: soldierly, soldierlike, warriorlike] 2: suggesting war or military life [syn: warlike] 3: of or relating to the armed forces; "martial law" [syn: martial(a)] "
Hmm sounds like what I was talking about????

 

[RRouuselot]

Wow Oh one with the mountain who resides under the golden waterfall...1)Your link had nothing to do with the definition of Bushido as given by the link I posted.
To answer your questions. No I havent read the book. However I have heard of Matsushita/Panasonic.
Martial:

"adj 1: (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing" [syn: soldierly, soldierlike, warriorlike] 2: suggesting war or military life [syn: warlike] 3: of or relating to the armed forces; "martial law" [syn: martial(a)] "
2) Hmm sounds like what I was talking about????

1) Duuuuuh.....I never said it did. It was a link to the book I mentioned. However, in that book is a long description of the term "Bushido"......you may want to read the book. Then read some of what people have commented about the book.
The other link for matsushita was for the people that sponsored the online university you supplied. Never said that was a link for the definition of Bushido either.
Shall we discuss the meaning of "Bushido" as it is defined in the Japanese Language? I mean after all that is where the word comes from.....I would be more than happy to.......just let me know when you feel up to it.

2) No, Actually it sounds like what I was talking about.........oh wait a minute.....I posted that.......

 

[Drag'n]

The fighting abilities I've gained from my training are valuable.If I ever have to defend myself on the street I'm more than confident in my abilities.
But the self dicipline and sense of integrity I've gained from studdying Budo is invaluable.
I may never have to use my fighting skills to survive, but they are there if I ever need them.
My commitment to "the way" however , serves me every day in every aspect of my life.I would not be where I am today had I never been a martial artist.
To me, being a martial artist is a constant strive for self perfection.Not just in physical techniques. A true warrior lives with courtesy , self discipline, respect and integrity. Without these qualities he is nothing but a thug, and a danger to himself and others.THAT is why most traditional martial arts have a stong ethical and moral foundation. If you think it is some kind of marketing plee then I pity you.
Many students may already have a sense of morality, but do they listen to it?
To live as a true martial artist requires great discipline.There are so many opportunities to take the easy way out, both in training and in everyday life.
The social institutions in place to teach moral ethics have largely failed.
I beleive training in true Budo is the most efective method of body mind spirit and moral development ever devised. Fighting techniques are just the tip of the iceburg.
Quote:
"Everything you do in daily life is a facet of the training towards fulfilment in the Way- the Karate Way.
Subjecting oneself to the demands of training is more aimed at victory over the self and the forging of an unshakable spirit than at developing mere phisical strength."

Mas Oyama - founder of Kyokushin Karate.

 

[RHD]

My commitment to "the way" however , serves me every day in every aspect of my life.I would not be where I am today had I never been a martial artist.
To me, being a martial artist is a constant strive for self perfection.Not just in physical techniques. A true warrior lives with courtesy , self discipline, respect and integrity.

But cannot a person have these qualities and not be a warrior? What separates the warrior from another person are their fighting skills. How you choose to put those skills to work is up to you. It's funny how romanticized martial arts have become. Samurais drank, gambled, and hung out in brothels. European Knights were often as much bandits and ruffians as they were noble warriors. Yet, both of these groups have been romanticized by movies and books to be the pinacle of chivalry and living by a code of ethics.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

I wouldnt say "What separates the warrior from another person are their fighting skills." I would say what separates a warrior from another person is the fact that he fights. Who is more the "warrior", a master martial artist who hasnt seen a fight outside the dojo, or some 19 yo private in Iraq who only has had basic training but is risking his life in firefights weekly? Its less about "skill" as it is about service and commitment.

 

[RHD]

I wouldnt say "What separates the warrior from another person are their fighting skills." I would say what separates a warrior from another person is the fact that he fights. Who is more the "warrior", a master martial artist who hasnt seen a fight outside the dojo, or some 19 yo private in Iraq who only has had basic training but is risking his life in firefights weekly? Its less about "skill" as it is about service and commitment.

Damn good point! But of course we wouldn't want anyone's fantasy about being warrior to be shattered, would we?

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Damn good point! But of course we wouldn't want anyone's fantasy about being warrior to be shattered, would we?

Mike

Roll your 20 sided die to hit....the fight is on!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I wouldnt say "What separates the warrior from another person are their fighting skills." I would say what separates a warrior from another person is the fact that he fights. Who is more the "warrior", a master martial artist who hasnt seen a fight outside the dojo, or some 19 yo private in Iraq who only has had basic training but is risking his life in firefights weekly? Its less about "skill" as it is about service and commitment.

I have a friend on his way to Iraq right now. One of the reasons why he joined was that his goal is to be a martial arts instructor as a career. He asked me, "How can I teach if I don't actually know if it works?"

Martial Defined
Martial \Mar"tial\, a. [F., fr. L. martialis of or belonging to
Mars, the god of war. Cf. March the month.]
1. Of, pertaining to, or suited for, war; military; as,
martial music; a martial appearance. ``Martial equipage.''
--Milton.

2. Practiced in, or inclined to, war; warlike; brave.

But peaceful kings, o'er martial people set, Each
other's poise and counterbalance are. --Dryden.

3. Belonging to war, or to an army and navy; -- opposed to
civil; as, martial law; a court-martial.

4. Pertaining to, or resembling, the god, or the planet,
Mars. --Sir T. Browne.

5. (Old Chem. & Old Med.) Pertaining to, or containing, iron;
chalybeate; as, martial preparations. [Archaic]

====

So a "Martial Art" would be an art done in a military way.

Def: martial art n : any of several arts of weaponless or weapon based self-defense;


So, yes it must be combat / self defense oriented.


There is also
Martial Sport, which is stuff like sport karate and other tournaments styles;
Martial Science, which is the scientific study of that which is martial;

For example, Tai Chi which in the US is mostly little more than stretching has it's roots in a highly effective combat system that traces its roots back centuries. Even in the watered down version we see seniors moving to in parks there is a trace of the original. Having taken some Tai Chi, and then watched an experienced practitioner demonstrate applications, I could see it.

Martial arts may teach poise, balance, self discipline, and a higher awareness but that is all a positive 'extra' over its main mission - teaching one how to defend and attack. Higher levels of study may explore the personal realizations more, and help you gain a 'bigger view of the big picture', but most arts simply don't get 'that sophisticated.