Multiple Attackers-Fantasy or Reality?

[14 Kempo]

1) Is it possible?

Yes. It is definately possible.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Anything goes. First of all, don't get involved unless you are willing to go the distance. Secondly, my feelings are in line with a couple previous statements, take out the biggest, strongest, toughest in the bunch first and take him out hard, no remorse. How you figure who that person is, could be another issue.

In my mind, it's the quiet, confident one. If I take out the tough guy, as fast and as hard as I can, the weaker will think twice about coming in. If I take out the weak guy, the tough guy may feel he needs to protect his friend ... IMHO

Another great point that has been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread, keep the person you are locked up with between you and the others, line them up.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

N/A

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

Whatever art you art trained in, is the art that offers you the best self defense at the time. No other art will help you. I'm in a stand up, hands oriented art, so of course I'll say it will work best.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

I would use whatever I needed to use in the case of multiple attackers, it's life or death. If picking up a pile of dog stuff and rubbing it in the face of an attacker will work, then I'll do it ... whatever it takes. Like I said before, be prepared to go the distance. Whether I survive or not, the group coming after me is going to leave wondering why they ever thought I should be their victim.

 

[KenpoTex]

1) Is it possible?
I think it is possible to survive against multiple attackers if you have the proper mindset and use sound tactics.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
When I taught a series on defending against multiples, the tactics I stressed were: 1) Never remain stationary as this will only allow them to "box you in." In other words, KEEP MOVING! 2) Try to "line up" the attackers so that you only have to deal with one at a time--you can fight 3 people one at a time much more easily that all at once. 3) Be nasty from the outset. I don't want to have to deal with the same guy more than once. Seek to disable with every strike. If you can take people out of the fight, you're increasing your odds of success.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?
see #1

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?
I personally feel that striking-based methods are going to work best. Wrestling and grappling based methods, I feel, will leave you tied up with one person for way too long. I might use clinch/standup-grappling to move someone around (to "line them up" or use one as a shield) but I'm going to use striking to put them down. With regard to specific techniques, as I said earlier, you want to disable them as quickly as possible. Therefore, I feel that attacking the eyes, throat, and knees are going to be the most effective. Really, I'll hit anything within reach but I'm concentrating on targets that will take them out of the fight. If kicks are used, use only low-line kicks. Mobility is paramount and you don't want to be caught off balance by trying to kick too high.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)
Hell yes! If I see more than one person coming at me, I'm definately going to be going for a weapon. If I'm already in the fight I'm going to be trying to create an opportunity access my weapons and if I get my weapon(s) deployed, I'm going to use them until there is no longer a threat.
AFAIK, when dealing with multiples, a weapon is my first line of defense, not my last.

edit: One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind when dealing with this issue...Multiple attacker situations are dangerous. Many people have been killed because they ended up on the ground with 3 or 4 guys doing the Texas two-step on their face. AFAIC, the disparity of force that exists when you are outnumbered is automatic justification for the use of deadly force.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm sorry you've not seen truly good TKD - which is extremely combat effective. As far as letting bygones be bygones - IMHO the above was hardly an apology, and while you may not have intended it to be the focus of your post, I can assure you that quite a few people will be focusing on it.

I was expecting Exile to say that. Ohh well, your just as good! Wait... you out rank him, so your better! :rofl:

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I have the experience and memories to know it's possible, echoing many of the sentiments in this thread.

However, I think we're not putting enough emphasis on how dangerous multiple attacker situations are. They are bad, bad news. Yes, it's possible, but evasion and escape are plans a,b,c and d.

Effective techniques, in order of preference:

1. Using heightened awareness to avoid the situation entirely.
2. Avoiding injury through rapid flight.
3. Fight briefly, long enough to create an exit, then run like...well, like a bunch of guys are chasing you.
4. Use the smallest attacker as a body shield until you can create an exit.

Another plan, which has worked for me, is to stay in excellent cariovascular condition. If you run even a block and a half, most of your average thugs are going to be winded. Run 'til they're winded, then turn around and front kick one in the gut. He'll puke 'til next Wednesday.

As far as equalizers, I'm all for them as long as you're trained and have a reasonable chance of escape. If you get overrun while using a weapon, you are in serious, serious hurt. They will take it away and they will use it on you. Only draw down if you think it will materially improve your chance of escape.

Just my two cents.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Run 'til they're winded, then turn around and front kick one in the gut. He'll puke 'til next Wednesday.

I love this line.

 

[morph4me]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible?

Yes

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

The concept that you deal with one attacker at a time as many times as it takes to end the threat, using the attacker you're defending against as a shield and/or weapon to keep the others at bay until you're finished, and you deal with the most significant threat first and work your way down the line

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I don't think the art matters as much as the concepts

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

Absolutely, I believe that the superior numbers of my attackers would make it necessary for my survival,

 

[LawDog]

Keep your attackers away from each other so that they will not be able to unify in their attack against you.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aw, Maarten, why did you have to go and actually make a good point just when I was going to take you to task for being rude ?

With regard to weapon use, tho', times have changed a lot since the days when carrying and using weapons as an ordinary citizen was considered not worthy of comment.

I suspect that making use of a weapon, if it ever came to a court of law, would certainly be held against you, regardless of circumstances - I'm by no means saying that that is a correct attitude but I do think it to be a likely outcome.

I still feel that the comment I made stands whereby if you're not trained in the use of a weapon and are trained in an empty-hand art then you're better off with the skill you've honed.

 

[Adept]

It is I who am sorry. Truly good TKD is just Karate.

I can assure you that this (quite bizarre) definition of what techniques and strategies define the styles of karate and taekwondo is very much unique to yourself.

There are many techniques and strategies which are very effective in the real world, and which are also commonly recognised as taekwondo.

 

[kidswarrior]

1) Is it possible?

Yes, as several posters have alluded to personal experiences--I'm one of those.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Have to go with Sukerkin et al on this: Hurt/tie up one and use to momentarily shield the others. Second best, Caver's experience: put your back to the wall and do your best. And wouldn't want to settle on a technique ahead of time, but Drac's shin kicks are a favorite (close counts, too, as in knee, thigh, ankle).

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

It's not optional if it happens.

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

Any that allows you to keep your feet under you, and that you train in and believe in.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

Well, if I could legally carry a PR 24 like Drac and others, that would be my choice. Since not, combat cane. Barring that, kubotan (or double kubotans--used in hammer fists they can be vicious).

 

[Drac]

Well, if I could legally carry a PR 24 like Drac and others, that would be my choice. Since not, combat cane. Barring that, kubotan (or double kubotans--used in hammer fists they can be vicious).

Always have a cane in the car too..Carry a Kubotan and a ProTek Key..Both are nasty little surprises...

 

[Mr. E]

A few comments taken from the responses.

Do not get tied up.

Depends on a lot of things, but the most basic idea is don't get so tied up with one guy that you're meat for the others;

The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.

I'd try to stay very mobile, making it challenging for all to 'hone in' on me. I'd want to be cautious of becoming attached to any one of them for an extended period of time, preferring to strike and move. My feeling is that anything that slows me down, such as one downed attacker on the ground grabbing my foot, is a very dangerous liability. Mobility would be my greatest asset....

First of all, don't get involved unless you are willing to go the distance.

Never remain stationary as this will only allow them to "box you in." In other words, KEEP MOVING!

Fight briefly, long enough to create an exit, then run like...well, like a bunch of guys are chasing you.

Ok, so all of the above excellent points are somehow dependent on the idea that you know that there are multiple opponents.

Here is a kicker to the discussion.....

....what if you don't know you are facing more than one guy until the others jump in on the dance?

I have learned that guys with knives will often not bother to let you know they have them until they put it in you and that people will not line up and introduce everyone who will be paqrticipating in a fight ahead of time.

It is quite common for one guy to be facing someone, only to find that his opponent has friends once things get to the ground.

So all these comments about not commiting yourself to one guy.... would it not be safe to say that they are not just for when you know that you are facing multiple opponents, but also when there is any possibility that someone else may join in? So any move that causes you to go to the ground or otherwise get tied up with just one guy is best saved for people with a lot of backup like police taking down a suspect or bouncers that work in teams?

Of course, that is not how many dojos train. Especially the ones that put a lot of emphisis on competition and the vocal ones I talked about.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Very true Mr. E. Thus why I like my "run tail and RUN!" aproach.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Aw, Maarten, why did you have to go and actually make a good point just when I was going to take you to task for being rude ?

With regard to weapon use, tho', times have changed a lot since the days when carrying and using weapons as an ordinary citizen was considered not worthy of comment.

I suspect that making use of a weapon, if it ever came to a court of law, would certainly be held against you, regardless of circumstances - I'm by no means saying that that is a correct attitude but I do think it to be a likely outcome.

I still feel that the comment I made stands whereby if you're not trained in the use of a weapon and are trained in an empty-hand art then you're better off with the skill you've honed.

I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. They were the aggressors. It was merely self defense.

About your last point I agree, but I would still caryy a weapon, even if it was against the law, because the law favours criminals and if they carry, so will I. Better their blood on my hands than mine on theirs.

 

[Josh Oakley]

short reply:

Yes it is possible. I've been jumped twice in my life. The second time I wasn't a bloody mess. Stay disentangled in a multiple-attacker scenario because mobility is key. As soon as possible... flee.

 

[Adept]

As soon as possible... flee.

Another thing to remember is that fleeing is not an option for all of us.

As a bouncer, if I'm doing a hard ejection and two of the ejectee's buddies materialise out of the crowd to help him out, I don't get the choice to run. I have to handle it as best I can until my backup arrives.

 

[Doc_Jude]

1) Is it possible?

Yep.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Footwork is paramount. Footwork is what will save you in a multi-opponent situations. This may be running, as it should be. If your awareness fails you, you may be dealing with distractions while attacks are coming from right angles or from beyond your peripheral vision. Beyond that, NO LINE FIGHTING! HIT HARD AND MOVE!

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

N/A

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

Any art that trains effective multi-opponent methods can work. I practice a Pentjak Silat style that deals with multi's.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

Yes, of course. They bring friends, I'm bringing a friend. Group attacks absolutely justify the legal use of force multipliers.

 

[kidswarrior]

Another thing to remember is that fleeing is not an option for all of us.

Good point, Adept. This response always gets me, because it assumes everyone who will be attacked is 20, or 30, or even 40. When I was 20, I could run like the wind--even at 40, I was still chasing down teen miscreants at my day job (schools). Now, I can't run like the wind, I just get winded--and long before the bad guys, if they're young. So, better not to turn my back and be overtaken.

 

[Hand Sword]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible?

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

1.Yes it is possible. I've done it, and have seen it done. You will suffer damage. but, it can be done.
2. I honestly don't remember. Kind of just moved.
4. I would go with stand up arts as having the best defense. Basically because you have to stay up when facing multiples. Going down-you're almost certainly done for!
5. Absolutely yes.

 

[MJS]

Absobloodylutely. Is it probable? Not very. If they have weapons (and you don't) AND/OR you are with a loved one that is not martially able... You're pretty much ****ed.

Came across two articles in my newspaper this morning. These are two attacks that happened in a city about 10min from where I live.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-6brf0725_2.artjul25,0,4251855.story

An 18-year-old man told police three teenagers robbed him of his laptop computer Monday evening on a South End street.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-6brf0725_1.artjul25,0,3596494.story

A 36-year-old man was stabbed Monday afternoon as he fought off three men who attempted to rob him in the city's Blue Hills neighborhood,

This city is pretty rough. I kid you not when I say that a shooting or multiple shootings happen pretty much on a nightly basis. My point of posting this is that mult. attacks are not as uncommon as they appear.

Mike